Who can rival Kim in Sochi: Asada or Kostner?

[cheerio2]

So I think it's a question of consistency. Please! Consistency!!

True.

What if she switches the 3S-2T for a 3F-2t? That's an extra point and a bit.

I feel like Yuna will keep her current layout. The 3F is probably the jump that has historically given her the most trouble, so I doubt she will risk doing two 3Fs for an extra point when she has never done so in her LP before. I think she just needs to skate her current layout clean.

 

[Krislite]

As much as I admire Yuna for all her greatness, talent, sacrifies she had to make and everything, she already got her gold. I just feel like "Oh please Kim, let someone else feel what it's like!" (and let it be Mao PLEASE)

I don't get this mentality. She's not depriving anyone of a gold medal. The OGM is open to anyone who skates the best during the games. Should we blame Michelle Kwan for depriving a generation of skaters of a world title? How greedy she took five world titles and nine national titles for herself instead of sharing the wealth!

 

[Colanboy]

Also, Mao is really quite strong mentally. Mr. Sato and Japanese commentators have remarked that she usually does better in competition than in practice.

If anything, I think that speaks to her lack of competition mettle. Mao has never been the most consistent skater, and it's unfortunate that her other qualities (lines, stretch, carriage, etc.) are not (really) rewarded in the current scoring system.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I don't get this mentality. She's not depriving anyone of a gold medal. The OGM is open to anyone who skates the best during the games. Should we blame Michelle Kwan for depriving a generation of skaters of a world title? How greedy she took five world titles and nine national titles for herself instead of sharing the wealth!

I agree. I know people want other skaters to claim Olympic gold, but they really should earn it. I don't think Mao would appreciate Yu Na being like, "Here Mao, I'll step aside you can have a clear shot at winning". A win against Yu Na would be far more satisfying (and be a "better" win) for her.

 

[pangtongfan]

Then why did you say before that if Maria Butyrskaya were a much better skater she could have won Olympic gold at the age of 29, and criticized her for being unable to do so?

Your reading skills deficit is not my problem. I said Maria became a contender for the first time and was entering her prime at 23 (95-96 season) vs Arakawa at 23, so Maria had just as many chances to achieve things as Shizuka did, if she were good enough to. Instead one year after coming a breakthrough 4th at Worlds at 23, she dropped to 5th at Worlds at 24 in a poor year for womens skating as a 14 year old went from 15th in the World to 1st, proceded to lose the Olympic bronze with a poor skate to the 25th place finisher from the 97 Worlds, then following her World title needing only an adequate 6 triple program to defend her title failed to even produce that and dropped from 1st to 3rd after the SP. In contrast to Shizuka who 2 years after her breakthrough World title at 23 (just as Maria became a contender for the first time at the exact same age as Shizuka- 23, but unlike Shizuka was not good enough to win a World title in her breakthrough year as a contender at 23, only to take 4th place) with one of the technically strongest and most complete performances in ladies history, went on to easily become the Olympic Champion as well (at 25, the same age Maria choked as usual, and skated a poor long program with only 2 solid triples to miss out on the bronze medal to the World #25). I mentioned the years she was a contender BEFORE her World title, and to a lesser degree the 1 or 2 years (aka the 99-2000 and 2000-2001 seasons after) were the years she could have done something bigger IF she were as good a skater as Shizuka or a good enough skater to do so. I NEVER said a single about the 2002 Olympics or implied she should have won the gold or been a contender to win the gold there, but as usual you read what you want to read. Everyone has already agreed with me that Shizuka >>> Butyrskaya as a skater, even Shizuka's detractors in that thread conceding so, and your long string of ideas and failed arguments in that thread were shot down by all; so just give it up already, and go back to whining about Chan not being respected as the next Yagudin or something in the Chan thread or actually stick to the discussion point in THIS thread, rather than bringing your dirty laundry and apparent issues with me into a new thread that has nothing to do with Shizuka or Maria.

Maria was also a very late bloomer, not a former teen phenom who could have won the Olympics at 16 without the stupid ages rules of today, like Asada.

 

[cristina]

No one can rival Yu-Na in Sochi, no worries on that.

 

[Olympia]

I don't get this mentality. She's not depriving anyone of a gold medal. The OGM is open to anyone who skates the best during the games. Should we blame Michelle Kwan for depriving a generation of skaters of a world title? How greedy she took five world titles and nine national titles for herself instead of sharing the wealth!

One doesn't mean it literally, of course. Anyone who wins as decisively as YuNa does deserves it. If she comes back in at the top, as she just did, then she's the top skater. But I'd love for Mao to win a gold of her own as well. Thats perfectly natural for a fervent fan, and I'm happy to say I'm a fervent fan of both these ladies.

In the same way, I always wanted Michelle to win an OGM in her years. One has one's favorites. I don't hate Sarah or Tara for "seizing" it from its rightful owner. Just as I'd love Davis and White to win the next OGM...but if Virtue/Moir win it, it will be because they're splendid on that night. As a dancer friend of mine, a big Michelle fan, said of Tara in 1998, "Sometimes the magic happens for one person." That's life, and the ice is slippery.

 

[pangtongfan]

Michelle Kwan prevented Irina Slutskaya from being a 5 or 6 time World Champion which despite being an Irina fan gives me shivers, from Elena Sokolova becoming a World Champion, and from Sasha splatting her way to every U.S title from 2000 onwards (the only year Sasha did performances worthy of a U.S title in 2006 she easily won it). For that alone she should be blessed. It is not like she was ever preventing any really great skaters from doing something that they were worthy of, other than Chen from winning her 2nd World title in 1996.

Kim on the other hand is preventing some great and truly worthy skaters from achieving more. Mao Asada is a phenom who by rights should be an Olympic Champion once or twice already, but due to Kim's Vancouver rampage and silly age rules is a 0 time, and now down to her last chance to do it. Carolina Kostner is a wonderful and gorgeous skater who should be a multi World Champion, but because she competes with Kim and Asada she is only a 1 time thus far. Joannie Rochette is another great skater who should be atleast a 1 time World or Olympic winner but having to compete against Kim, Asada, and even Ando and Kostner as well, that didnt happen for her. Ando is a multi World Champion but due to Kim and Asada she will retire with no Olympic medals. However all these skaters were better for having had to compete against her.

 

[ellelee]

Kim on the other hand is preventing some great and truly worthy skaters from achieving more. Mao Asada is a phenom who by rights should be an Olympic Champion once or twice already, but due to Kim's Vancouver rampage and silly age rules is a 0 time, and now down to her last chance to do it. Carolina Kostner is a wonderful and gorgeous skater who should be a multi World Champion, but because she competes with Kim and Asada she is only a 1 time thus far. Joannie Rochette is another great skater who should be atleast a 1 time World or Olympic winner but having to compete against Kim, Asada, and even Ando and Kostner as well, that didnt happen for her. Ando is a multi World Champion but due to Kim and Asada she will retire with no Olympic medals. However all these skaters were better for having had to compete against her.

Isn't that just the nature of any sport, though? Kim is not preventing Mao, Kostner, or Rochette from getting their OGM. They have not skated clean when they needed to, but Kim did, and won her medals rightfully. If the other skaters want to "achieve more", then they have to skate clean at important events (worlds, olympics) like Kim does. By your logic, any dominating athlete should be prevented from competing if that sport category has other worthy athletes (and only when there are other worthy athletes?), which would not make any sense. All the other skaters you mentioned are great and amazing skaters, but gold medals are not given to athletes based on their entire career, it's based on that specific performance at each event.

 

[pangtongfan]

Isn't that just the nature of any sport, though? Kim is not preventing Mao, Kostner, or Rochette from getting their OGM.

Well beating Kim in Vancouver was impossible for any of those skaters, no matter how well they skated, so yes she basically did. However I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[Nadia01]

Well beating Kim in Vancouver was impossible for any of those skaters, no matter how well they skated, so yes she basically did. However I agree with the rest of your post.

This doesn't make any sense.

If other ladies in Vancouver had 3Lz/3T, 3F and 2A plus level 4 on spins plus skated as fast as Yuna did w/ transitions in and out of every jump w/ the height & distance Yuna got on her jumps, they could have scored as big as Yuna after SP. If they'd skated LP as well as Yuna did they could've won. But they did not do so -- maybe they couldn't skate / jump like that or whatever -- but Yuna did not stop them from copying her layout or skating fast or going clean.

If Mao could capitalize on the SP 3A rule and skated her programs clean, she could've won the worlds this year. It is not Yuna's fault she popped her jumps or double-footed 3As (even tho it earned + GOE in SP). Yuna did not prevent CaroK or Mao from going clean. You can't even claim psychological effect of Yuna going clean in LP as she was the last skater of the competition.

 

[Serious Business]

I do wonder if there will be any more COP scoring changes that will favor layouts like Mao's though (women's triple axel, etc.)? I still see YuNa as the clear favorite, regardless, but that is one factor I don't think has been brought into the discussion.

That's a very important point. Although, I think the more likely IJS changes to impact this and all other competitions are what they'll do in response to Patrick Chan's illegitimate win at the recent worlds. I would not be surprised if much heavier penalties are instituted for falls. If that were to happen, Carolina would be the one most likely to get hit, as she's the most prone to falls. Yuna also has freak falls. Mao is pretty good at staying on her feet, though. So if such a version of IJS were to be implemented, it would increase Mao's chances of gold, significantly decrease Carolina's, and put the pressure on Yuna to execute yet another perfect competition.

 

[Bartek]

That's a very important point. Although, I think the more likely IJS changes to impact this and all other competitions are what they'll do in response to Patrick Chan's illegitimate win at the recent worlds. I would not be surprised if much heavier penalties are instituted for falls. If that were to happen, Carolina would be the one most likely to get hit, as she's the most prone to falls. Yuna also has freak falls. Mao is pretty good at staying on her feet, though. So if such a version of IJS were to be implemented, it would increase Mao's chances of gold, significantly decrease Carolina's, and put the pressure on Yuna to execute yet another perfect competition.

Actually, has Mao fallen even once this season? As far as I remember her errors include popping, two-footed landings or underrotation but she simply hasn't been falling for a number of seasons. This is owing to her PERFECT air position; she is always absolutely straight in the air like 90 degree to the ice. Interestingly, she's gained this ability under Sato. Around Vancouver she used to sligthly lean in the air on her triple axles.

 

[Robeye]

This doesn't make any sense.

If other ladies in Vancouver had 3Lz/3T, 3F and 2A plus level 4 on spins plus skated as fast as Yuna did w/ transitions in and out of every jump w/ the height & distance Yuna got on her jumps, they could have scored as big as Yuna after SP. If they'd skated LP as well as Yuna did they could've won. But they did not do so -- maybe they couldn't skate / jump like that or whatever -- but Yuna did not stop them from copying her layout or skating fast or going clean.

If Mao could capitalize on the SP 3A rule and skated her programs clean, she could've won the worlds this year. It is not Yuna's fault she popped her jumps or double-footed 3As (even tho it earned + GOE in SP). Yuna did not prevent CaroK or Mao from going clean. You can't even claim psychological effect of Yuna going clean in LP as she was the last skater of the competition.

Ah, the way I read Pangtongfan's post, I believe what was meant is that even if the other skaters had skated their programs to the best of their abilities at the time, they would still not have beaten Yuna's performances. This is a true statment, IMO.

 

[pangtongfan]

Ah, the way I read Pangtongfan's post, I believe what was meant is that even if the other skaters had skated their programs to the best of their abilities at the time, they would still not have beaten Yuna's performances. This is a true statment, IMO.

Yes that is what I meant. I actually think Yu Na in Vancouver was much more unbeatable than Yu Na in Sochi. The gap between her and the field has closed somewhat I feel. However is it close enough to be in striking distance for Kostner or Asada is the topic at hand, and quite an interesting one to discuss.

 

[Reginald]

Michelle Kwan prevented Irina Slutskaya from being a 5 or 6 time World Champion which despite being an Irina fan gives me shivers, from Elena Sokolova becoming a World Champion, and from Sasha splatting her way to every U.S title from 2000 onwards (the only year Sasha did performances worthy of a U.S title in 2006 she easily won it). For that alone she should be blessed. It is not like she was ever preventing any really great skaters from doing something that they were worthy of, other than Chen from winning her 2nd World title in 1996.

Kim on the other hand is preventing some great and truly worthy skaters from achieving more. Mao Asada is a phenom who by rights should be an Olympic Champion once or twice already, but due to Kim's Vancouver rampage and silly age rules is a 0 time, and now down to her last chance to do it. Carolina Kostner is a wonderful and gorgeous skater who should be a multi World Champion, but because she competes with Kim and Asada she is only a 1 time thus far. Joannie Rochette is another great skater who should be atleast a 1 time World or Olympic winner but having to compete against Kim, Asada, and even Ando and Kostner as well, that didnt happen for her. Ando is a multi World Champion but due to Kim and Asada she will retire with no Olympic medals. However all these skaters were better for having had to compete against her.

LOL. "splatting her way to every single title."

The fact is, Mao lost her best chance for Olympic gold in 2006.



Also, if both Mao and Carolina skate cleanly (no URs or DGs). I could see each of them scoring 145+ for a LP.

So, Mao and Carolina could rival Yu-Na. They just need to bring it.

 

[hurrah]

Actually, has Mao fallen even once this season? As far as I remember her errors include popping, two-footed landings or underrotation but she simply hasn't been falling for a number of seasons. This is owing to her PERFECT air position; she is always absolutely straight in the air like 90 degree to the ice. Interestingly, she's gained this ability under Sato. Around Vancouver she used to sligthly lean in the air on her triple axles.

No. Mao did not fall, not even once this season. I do recall her falling last season, though only once or twice, I think. Mao's air position has dramatically improved, and if you compare just air position, they are way better than any other skater inc. Yuna and Caro. Caro used to have really scary looking air positions. They were quite bad, and that's why she's prone to falling. I think she has improved a great deal, but it's still fairly loose.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Kim on the other hand is preventing some great and truly worthy skaters from achieving more. Mao Asada is a phenom who by rights should be an Olympic Champion once or twice already, but due to Kim's Vancouver rampage and silly age rules is a 0 time, and now down to her last chance to do it. Carolina Kostner is a wonderful and gorgeous skater who should be a multi World Champion, but because she competes with Kim and Asada she is only a 1 time thus far. Joannie Rochette is another great skater who should be atleast a 1 time World or Olympic winner but having to compete against Kim, Asada, and even Ando and Kostner as well, that didnt happen for her. Ando is a multi World Champion but due to Kim and Asada she will retire with no Olympic medals. However all these skaters were better for having had to compete against her.

Worst. Reasoning. Ever.

Also, Ando doesn't have an Olympic medal because her performances at the Olympics have been crap. If Kim and Asada didn't exist, she still would have been off the podium in 2010.

 

[FlattFan]

Worst. Reasoning. Ever.

Also, Ando doesn't have an Olympic medal because her performances at the Olympics have been crap. If Kim and Asada didn't exist, she still would have been off the podium in 2010.

She would be third.

Probably second if the other 2 are not there. Her PCS would rise enough.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Her PCS wouldn't rise for that performance. Lepisto's would, though, because she would have been considered more of a challenger. Rachael Flatt also would have gone into that Olympics as a World medalist in this fantasy scenario and she would have placed above both of them to begin with if her 3Flips hadn't been given very questionable < calls, which they probably wouldn't have had her reputation been higher.