Can Evgeni Plushenko win the 2014 Olympic title?

[ciocio]

Of course, I was joking. Good music and "Gorod kotorogo net- Town wich doesn't exist" Plushy's legendary ex program. And for me the St Petersburg 300 is one of my favorite men programs ever.

---------
Poroshin:
"commercial pop violinist, Hungarian Edvin Marton"

Yeah, he isn't a Menuhin or Pearlman but Edvin Marton is a good composer and Grammy Award Winner.

Ok, what about his wife, mother, dad, sister, sons, ex-wife, Baturin?

 

[Bluebonnet]

I am sure your is quite sincere. You indeed don't get the difference between the reference to the official group, like "ISU" or "the Democrats" or "the Republicans", and the insult you address to the individual like a poster on the online forum. That is obvioulsy how you were brought up in your social circle. Therefore for the sake of charity let me give you some juridical advice pro bono. The two situations above are treated completely different by law. You can't insult the organization. You can damage its business reputation at best. The insult can be directed only to the individual. And when you do it offline, you can be seriously screwed by law. Keep it in mind next time when you open you mouth. But something tells me that you type is brave only online hiding behind the computer screen and you won't tell any single thing what you type offlline to anybody.

Finding excuses for trolling. Well, I only argue with reasonable people or someone with a point. So I'll leave you continue your trolling on this line. Bye!

 

[let`s talk]

Well, I only argue with reasonable people or someone with a point.

That's why you argue with me more than with anyone else on this board.

I'm curious what was Poroshin saying when Yagudin was skating to Hollywood OSTs.
Let's talk, can you assist, please? Thanks!

Zero. He never wrote anything to my knowledge about this topic. Why should he bother if no one is interested. Even when he wrote about Yag in SLC, he still was writing about Plu.

 

[bestskate8]

So Tara Lipinski is a genius, then?

Did she compete till 31? or planing to compete in Sochi?

Why ashamed? It's brilliant music.

The ballet of the National Opera of Ukraine was not too good to dance David Avdish's "Master and Margarita" on stage. The Mariinsky was not too good to work with Plushenko (nor too good to involve him in their April Fool's Day joke, for that matter). Maya Plisetskaya herself was not too good to call herself a "fan". So I don't get why Poroshin was fantasizing (so emotionally) about "Maya Plisetskaya on the stage dancing in Avdish’s cabaret".

In any case, as the thread appears to be on "art" now....In response to the kind of criticism embodied by Poroshin's long article, Plushy once replied quite simply that "an artist should not always be in the image of a prince". And Mishin once, when comparing his students, said that what was unique about Plushy in his mind was the "wide range of his creativity", even calling him "Shakespearean". Now one may say that Mishin is not objective, I suppose, nevertheless, to my eyes those few sentences (from both of them) already reveal a far greater and deeper understanding of what is "art" than all of Poroshin's multitude of words.

The definition of art may be all sorts of different things to different people, but to me, if there is one thing that art should not be, I would say that it should not be narrow. Of course people have different preferences, and it's perfectly fine to say that one doesn't like a particular style, or that one doesn't "get" it, but to say that someone isn't an artist just because he doesn't fit into a restricted definition of what "art" should consist of comes across to me as a bit sad. And that was the feeling I get when reading Poroshin's article, I have to say.

In any case, I don't quite understood Poroshin's point: after all that he goes on about "pop music", when you look at Plushenko's competitive programs, none of them really can be said to be with pop music, anyway.... The closest he came to "pop music" in competition were (rewritten) movie scores. In the end, it seems kind of strange to me for Poroshin to get so upset that Plushenko doesn't skate according to what he (Poroshin, that is) thinks should be skated. Maybe in a way, the article really ends up revealing more about himself than about Plushenko.

exellent review!
in russia people like Poroshin are 30 silver coins people, no one knows them, and they apear and disapear

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

You two probably didn't plan it but in fact you hit something here. I noticed long time ago that the worst Plu haters in the Internet, and in RuNet, are gays. Is it when it all started, with the skirt on him that was seen inappropriate by some gays, as if he was laughing at something? Mishin was also accused of being homophobic when he insisted on top jumps and being more manly in skating in Men segment.

How exactly do you know if a poster is gay unless they mention it? He has plenty of gay fans, too, and plenty of straight females who dislike him, too... so I don't see what sexuality has to do with it. And how do you attribute gays not liking him to that Asissai program (which, I for one, hadn't seen until it was just posted, and I thought that program was hilarious and entertaining)? I also certainly don't think he's homophobic... maybe a little bit misogynistic when he saying it's not a men's competition without the quad (which indirectly debases the women's competition). But I can't see how being homophobic would do anything but harm you in a sport like figure skating (Joubert and Stojko, as great skaters as they are, will always be in my bad books for their comments).

Here is Dan Hollander's interpretation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKBFcC3tK2U#t=1m10s

Hah, that's amazing.

 

[let`s talk]

How exactly do you know if a poster is gay unless they mention it?

One more demagogic tool of the local attention seeker: to ask a question and to answer it at the same time.

But I can't see how being homophobic would do anything but harm you in a sport like figure skating

Figure Skating is the same sport as any other. It's not written anywhere that it got privatized by gays. Therefore feel free to take your issues to your local club.

Joubert and Stojko, as great skaters as they are, will always be in my bad books for their comments.

Oh yeah. For calling gays gays Joubert is a bad guy. When gays call themselves gays they are good guys.
Stojko btw was deemed at some point be gay by some internet coo-coos.
Kurt B. and David P. were both labelled 'homophobic' at some point as well.

More witch-hunt?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Figure Skating is the same sport as any other. It's not written anywhere that it got privatized by gays. Therefore feel free to take your issues to your local club.

As with any sport, there will be straight and gay athletes. But figure skating has more gay athletes - and certainly more gay fans - than several other sports, and I'm not just being stereotypical here. Gay fans are also a lucrative demographic -- if you're a figure skater and insult the gays, you might as well shoot off your other foot by insulting older women while you're at it. I'm a bit indifferent when people refer to figure skating as "the gay sport" of the Olympics -- with guys dressed in ornate, sequined, skin-tight costumes, it certainly isn't the least gay-friendly sport. And I love it for that.

Oh yeah. For calling gays gays Joubert is a bad guy. When gays call themselves gays they are good guys.

Joubert's comment: ”It's the Canadians who created it (the COP) to favour the North-Americans. It needs to be known that their skaters, often homosexuals, are specialized in effeminated skating.”

That's not just 'calling gays gays'... that's calling them effeminate and saying it in a derogatory way. Stojko was another one who was concerned with being 'feminized' and who disparaged 'feminine' skaters and basically called for skaters to 'skate like men'. He was actually my skating idol at one point, but comments like that have no place in this sport - especially when it prides itself on being so inclusive.

Plushenko on the other hand isn't concerned with being feminized and even makes performances that (literally) embrace the feminine side of skating. Along with him and Dan Hollander, there's also Tobel and Eisler who come to mind who have swapped genders and made amazing programs. I also liked Witt's Robin Hood which was such a refreshing contrast from her usual sexy, feminine side. It's great that figure skating allows for so many roles and characters and concepts, so to restrict or limit yourself to "masculine" skating - and asking others to - is a sad attitude to have.

 

[Mathman]

I also liked Witt's Robin Hood which was such a refreshing contrast from her usual sexy, feminine side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y94l4FauvHc

This is an interesting example of gender roles. A girl can always go gamin, dress up like a boy, and sally forth into exciting adventures. A boy doing Robin Hood would have to worry about coming off with too much swash in his buckle.

From all accounts Errol Flynn, the greatest Robin Hood of them all, thoroughly enjoyed his "does he or doesn't he?" Hollywood reputation.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y94l4FauvHc

This is an interesting example of gender roles. A girl can always go gamin, dress up like a boy, and sally forth into exciting adventures. A boy doing Robin Hood would have to worry about coming off with too much swash in his buckle.

From all accounts Errol Flynn, the greatest Robin Hood of them all, thoroughly enjoyed his "does he or doesn't he?" Hollywood reputation.

Really brave of her to do that in competition, and she pulled that off magnificently! So refreshing amidst the slew of those trying to "look like a lady". Even if it was easier, it was certainly one of the more memorable programs from those Olympics, and 7th overall is not too shabby!

Another gender swapped performance from the great Witt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIw3j1ghb2k

I was hoping Kwan could have done some gender swap (movements-wise) for at least part of her Mulan program (as it fits the story), but it's hard to picture her straying from her femininity and elegance (plus it would have been kind of literal, and that's not her style).

 

[plushyfan]

Katarina was so unique

 

[Mathman]

Another gender swapped performance from the great Witt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIw3j1ghb2k

Whatever happened to that classics-with-a-synthesized-beat music that used to be on the scene a couple of decades ago. That is the perfect figure skating music -- something for everyone. :yes:

Here is what Witt had to say about her Mozart costume:

http://en.katarina-witt.de/figure-skating-european-champion-1983.html

The ISU made her put on a skirt for Worlds. :disagree:

I was hoping Kwan could have done some gender swap (movements-wise) for at least part of her Mulan program (as it fits the story), but it's hard to picture her straying from her femininity and elegance (plus it would have been kind of literal, and that's not her style).

Here is Michelle as Peter Pan opposite Philippe Candeloro's Captain Hook (and Tara Lipinski as Tinkerbell -- no just kidding ). I'm not sure if this is really a gender-bender, since Peter Pan is always played by a woman on stage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-sz_Ut7xbw

Michelle did a whole hour of Mulan for a Disney special (again co-starring Candeloro, as Li Shang -- they did a pretty cool pairs lift ). I can't find it on You-Tube now. I believe they might have done "I'll Make a Man out of You," but as a solo for Candeloro (?) By the way, Michelle had a brief speaking part in Mulan II.

As for Michelle's femininity and elegance, yes, but there was always some iron fist inside that velvet glove.

 

[let`s talk]

But figure skating has more gay athletes - and certainly more gay fans

"How exactly do you know if a skater is gay unless they mention it?" Exactly stereotypical hypocrites like you made Scott Hamilton wrote ""Frankly, I was sick of people constantly assuming I was gay because I was a figure skater." So, go away with your "certainly" rumours somewhere. There are 12 skaters in the world [Buttle (CAN), Cranston (CAN), Curry (UK), Galindo (USA), Hall (CAN), McCall (CAN), Nepela (Slovakia), Orser (CAN), Pockar (CAN), Robertson (USA), Wilson (CAN), Weir (USA)] who told that they are gays, which is quite low number compared not only to the number of skaters in general but also to the number of open gays in other sports, like soccer, Americal football or tennis.
Regarding gay fans, same argument: "How exactly do you know if a fan is gay unless they mention it?" You are like what, walking around the arenas making the survey among fans about their sexuality to come up with such statement?

Joubert's comment: ”It's the Canadians who created it (the COP) to favour the North-Americans. It needs to be known that their skaters, often homosexuals, are specialized in effeminated skating.”

One more stupid example of "I know it all but never in details, therefore I am never correct."

Brian said:

«Ce sont les Canadiens qui l’ont créé pour favoriser les Nord-Américains en vue de Vancouver. Il faut savoir que leurs patineurs, souvent homosexuels, sont spécialisés dans le patinage efféminé. Pourtant, on peut être à la fois homo et patiner viril.»

which roughly means: "It's the Canadians who created it to favour the North-Americans in Vancouver. It needs to be known that their skaters, often homosexuals, are specialized in effeminated skating. However, sometimes you can be gay and skate manly."

In the context of Vancouver and CoP he was referring to the quadless champions (like Buttle) whom CoP allows to win without challenging super jumps. And as Vancouver showed, Brian was right afterall- we got Evan, a quadless Olympic champion, and one more Oly scandal in fs. You wanna skate "efferminated"? Fine! But don't do girlish set of elements and don't zamboni the ice with your butt multiple times.

Stojko was another one who was concerned with being 'feminized' and who disparaged 'feminine' skaters and basically called for skaters to 'skate like men'.

So did Plu. He said pretty much the same stuff regarding Vancouver quad controversy, like a skater without a quad is "not a Man".

Plushenko on the other hand isn't concerned with being feminized and even makes performances that (literally) embrace the feminine side of skating.

It's because he knows that no one ever calls him gay, no matter what dress he puts on himself.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

"How exactly do you know if a fan is gay unless they mention it?" You are like what, walking around the arenas making the survey among fans about their sexuality to come up with such statement?

... "I noticed long time ago that the worst Plu haters in the Internet, and in RuNet, are gays."

So, then you obviously surveyed all the worst Plu haters and asked them about their sexuality, right? :sarcasm:

Brian said: "It's the Canadians who created it to favour the North-Americans in Vancouver. It needs to be known that their skaters, often homosexuals, are specialized in effeminated skating. However, sometimes you can be gay and skate manly."

In the context of Vancouver and CoP he was referring to the quadless champions (like Buttle) whom CoP allows to win without challenging super jumps. And as Vancouver showed, Brian was right afterall- we got Evan, a quadless Olympic champion, and one more Oly scandal in fs. So did Plu. He said pretty much the same stuff regarding Vancouver quad controversy, like a skater without a quad is "not a Man".

Um, but Evan is straight, so I don't see your point or Brian's point. As for Plushenko insinuating that a skater without a quad is "not a man", that is misogynistic and borderline homophobic... but it's not as bad as Brian directly (and disparagingly) calling North American skaters effeminate homosexuals, which is flat out homophobic (along with "sometimes you can be gay and skate manly" -- essentially "even if you're gay, you can still be a man... sometimes" ). Not having a quad should not equal being gay or being unmanly, and gay should not equal effeminate, so those were offensive, ignorant, stupid remarks for them to make and you're even stupider if you're actually trying to defend that.

There are 12 skaters in the world [Buttle (CAN), Cranston (CAN), Curry (UK), Galindo (USA), Hall (CAN), McCall (CAN), Nepela (Slovakia), Orser (CAN), Pockar (CAN), Robertson (USA), Wilson (CAN), Weir (USA)] who told that they are gays, which is quite low number compared not only to the number of skaters in general but also to the number of open gays in other sports, like soccer, Americal football or tennis.

Are you kidding me?! Not only have you left out other gay skaters like Emanuel Sandhu, Luc Bradet, Ryan O'Meara, Matthew Savoie (and others, I'm sure)... but a LOW number?!?!? Name 15 openly gay soccer or NFL or tennis players -- and by gay we are obviously talking about males, by definition. Heck, name any other sport that has had 15 or more openly gay male athletes. (And as for "compared to the number of skaters in general", sports like soccer/football/tennis have historically had a far greater number of athletes than figure skaters, and yet there are still more openly gay figure skaters those sports.)

 

[whitebamboo]

... maybe a little bit misogynistic when he saying it's not a men's competition without the quad (which indirectly debases the women's competition).
...

I've seen statements like this one several times before...How does discussing the importance of the quad specifically in men's skating "debase" women's skating? The different disciplines in figure skating are separate competitions, and in addition to what they have in common, each has its own special technical features (which of course may change over time). There are elements in women's skating that aren't in men's skating. The quad jump has been an established part of men's singles skating; it hasn't been so in women's singles skating. Plushenko said that he believed this particular technical element is important in this particular discipline. He did not say that women shouldn't or couldn't jump quads, or that women's skating is less valuable because they didn't jump quads (as of yet). In fact, he didn't say anything about women's skating at all. It is incorrect logic to try to deduce any conclusions, from that particular statement of his, about his opinions on women's skating. IMO, it's also a bait-and-switch to try to conflate his opinions on this very specific physical and technical competitive element with issues of gender roles and "manliness" (e. g. the journalists and others who (deliberately or not) misquote his words to along the lines of "macho" or "real men").

(And by the way, it may not be direct evidence in so many words, but Plushenko has for instance been effusive on more than one occasions in his praise of Mao Asada for her triple axels. This at least suggests that he is supportive of women pushing the envelope when it comes to jumps, too. And Mishin has said that he believes that quads will eventually become established in women's skating as well.)

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I've seen statements like this one several times before...How does discussing the importance of the quad specifically in men's skating "debase" women's skating? The different disciplines in figure skating are separate competitions, and in addition to what they have in common, each has its own special technical features (which of course may change over time). There are elements in women's skating that aren't in men's skating. The quad jump has been an established part of men's singles skating; it hasn't been so in women's singles skating. Plushenko said that he believed this particular technical element is important in this particular discipline. He did not say that women shouldn't or couldn't jump quads, or that women's skating is less valuable because they didn't jump quads (as of yet). In fact, he didn't say anything about women's skating at all. It is incorrect logic to try to deduce any conclusions, from that particular statement of his, about his opinions on women's skating. IMO, it's also a bait-and-switch to try to conflate his opinions on this very specific physical and technical competitive element with issues of gender roles and "manliness" (e. g. the journalists and others who (deliberately or not) misquote his words to along the lines of "macho" or "real men").

(And by the way, it may not be direct evidence in so many words, but Plushenko has for instance been effusive on more than one occasions in his praise of Mao Asada for her triple axels. This at least suggests that he is supportive of women pushing the envelope when it comes to jumps, too. And Mishin has said that he believes that quads will eventually become established in women's skating as well.)

I think it's rather emasculating to say that if you don't do a quad it's no longer men's skating. Which implies that a man who doesn't do a quad isn't "man enough". It's kind of like saying a man isn't a man if he can't throw a football properly or dunk a basketball. I know his intention was probably something more like "Men's figure skating needs to have a technical standard, and if you're not doing a quad, then you're not executing the highest technical standard." But it came out more like "If you don't do a quad, then your skating doesn't deserve to be called men's skating." And there's an implication that "You might as well be skating with the ladies." People can draw their own interpretations, but that's what I got from that statement and several other people have referred to that as misogynistic as well. Regardless, it's in the past, and while it was a misogynistic statement, I don't think Plushenko is a misogynist or a homophobe.

At best, it was rather unsportsmanlike and made him come across as a self-entitled, sore loser. Imagine the reaction Kim would get if she said that skaters don't deserve to beat if they don't have a 3F-3T or 3Z-3T, or if Asada said that skaters don't deserve to beat her if she executes a 3A and others don't.

 

[plushyfan]

At best, it was rather unsportsmanlike and made him come across as a self-entitled, sore loser. Imagine the reaction Kim would get if she said that skaters don't deserve to beat if they don't have a 3F-3T or 3Z-3T, or if Asada said that skaters don't deserve to beat her if she executes a 3A and others don't.

You are wrong. Quad is the gold medal standard for almost 20 last years. The point remains, and always will, that Evan performed a program based on the standards of 1988. Today, such a program can be performed equally well by any number of juniors. That was retrogression. And I'm sure, if Plu, his fans, many experts, and skaters had not protested, we would see quadless competitions even today.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

You are wrong. Quad is the gold medal standard for almost 20 last years. The point remains, and always will, that Evan performed a program based on the standards of 1988. Today, such a program can be performed equally well by any number of juniors. That was retrogression. And I'm sure, if Plu, his fans, many experts, and skaters had not protested, we would see quadless competitions even today.

Quad is a gold medal standard, yes, but the current system of judging has removed emphasis from the jumps and spread it to all other aspects of the program. Evan's program was far more difficult than the programs in 1988 because the actual choreography/spins/footwork was much more demanding. Jump-wise his program wasn't particularly difficult, but in terms of the overall program it was better than Plushenko's (even Irina Rodnina acknowledged that Lysacek was better). While Plushenko focused on his quads, the other guys focused on their programs.

The point is that when you say "It's not men's skating without a quad", it shows a sense of entitlement to winning and instead of being gracious in defeat (especially when he already had an Olympic gold medal), he decided to complain about it.

And I wouldn't attribute the quads we see today as Plushenko and others protesting. The value of quads were slightly increased, but you got skaters doing them much more consistently (like Chan, Fernandez, Amodio, etc.). Chan had actually planned to do quads at the Olympics but a year of injury set him back a season (hence why he was consistently starting to land them the year after Vancouver).

P.s. if it's not men's skating without a quad, then should Plushenko's quadless Euros 2013 SP and Euros 2012 SP not be considered "men's skating", by his own words?

 

[plushyfan]

Quad is a gold medal standard, yes, but the current system of judging has removed emphasis from the jumps and spread it to all other aspects of the program. Evan's program was far more difficult than the programs in 1988 because the actual choreography/spins/footwork was much more demanding. Jump-wise his program wasn't particularly difficult, but in terms of the overall program it was better than Plushenko's (even Irina Rodnina acknowledged that Lysacek was better). While Plushenko focused on his quads, the other guys focused on their programs.

The point is that when you say "It's not men's skating without a quad", it shows a sense of entitlement to winning and instead of being gracious in defeat (especially when he already had an Olympic gold medal), he decided to complain about it.

And I wouldn't attribute the quads we see today as Plushenko and others protesting. The value of quads were slightly increased, but you got skaters doing them much more consistently (like Chan, Fernandez, Amodio, etc.). Chan had actually planned to do quads at the Olympics but a year of injury set him back a season (hence why he was consistently starting to land them the year after Vancouver).

P.s. if it's not men's skating without a quad, then should Plushenko's quadless Euros 2013 SP and Euros 2012 SP not be considered "men's skating", by his own words?

In your post you are boring in every aspect. We have often talked about these things.

 

[fairly4]

Sorry for all people who talked about skaters being gay.

What doed that have to do with Evgeny chance of winning Ogm.

Personally, I think his age has more to do with it tnan gay comments.
Age slows down ones ability . The person has to work extra hard just to maintain,what was easier at a younger age. Stamina, thought process been there done that .
He won every medal, so he has to fine great reason to put up with his, his family, media, fans, federations expectation. It isnt and wont be easy especially been off icd,and,coming back from long standing injuries.

 

[gmyers]

In your post you are boring in every aspect. We have often talked about these things.

Oh my it is so Boring!!

Plushenko did say it is not men's skating without quads and gave all the reasons why he wasn't doing them and also why he didn't deserve to win those short programs and never ever ever not once in any way whatsoever said he was a COMPLETE skater like chan lysacek buttle said they were compete skaters in every way without quads!! Plushenko focused on his programs with quads and quads were inseparable from the program.