Skaters who can dominate both in IJS and 6.0.

[Bartek]

I don't think Michelle's UR problems were so severe as you suggest...

They were but it is just to hard to accept by her fans. However, it didn't matter at all under 6.0 so good for her. I'm not saying she would've had her triples downgraded but definitely she she would've had troubles with < marks just like Kanako. On the other hand, Hughes wouldn't have even become known.

For some famous examples her triple loop from 1998 Olympics was half a turn short of rotation as was her triple flip from 2002 Olympics SP. 3 or 4 of her jumps from 2001 Worlds FS should've gotten <.

 

[kwanatic]

They were but it is just to hard to accept by her fans. However, it didn't matter at all under 6.0 so good for her. I'm not saying she would've had her triples downgraded but definitely she she would've had troubles with < marks just like Kanako. On the other hand, Hughes wouldn't have even become known.

For some famous examples her triple loop from 1998 Olympics was half a turn short of rotation as was her triple flip from 2002 Olympics SP. 3 or 4 of her jumps from 2001 Worlds FS should've gotten <.

Michelle wasn't a huge jumper but "tiny" is an inaccurate adjective to describe them. If her jumps were tiny, what would you call Lipinski's jumps by comparison? Microscopic? Nanoscopic? Michelle didn't have springy jumps like Slutskaya but she wasn't an ice skimmer either. Her jumps were average in height, had nice coverage and excellent riding edges. By comparison Tara had small jumps that skimmed the ice and Irina had big jumps that got a lot of air. If you watch those three back-to-back-to-back (small, average, big) it might better illustrate my point.

Did Michelle under-rotate a jump on occasion? Of course. So did Slutskaya, Lipinski, Hughes, Cohen and everyone else she competed against. No one said she was perfect all the time...that's just silly. But to imply she under-rotated frequently, to the point it'd have been a recurring issue, is reaching a bit IMO.

It's obvious you are not a fan of Michelle Kwan and that's fine...she's not everyone's cuppa.


As for the 6.0 vs IJS, I think if Michelle had grown up under IJS she'd have been successful as well. Had she trained complex 3-3s and complicated spins from day one instead of the last year of her decade plus career, I'm sure she would have done well. Competitive focus and consistency are very rare and priceless traits that she had in spades which would have made her a huge threat under any system. However if her health issues remained, there's a good chance her career would not have lasted as long as it did...

 

[jenaj]

I don't think Michelle's UR problems were so severe as you suggest...

MIchelle didn't have under-rotation problems. Some people just see what they want to see on tiny videos from long ago and scream <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<.

 

[pangtongfan]

OMG, having read the first few pages of the thread is as expected Kwan, Kwan, Kwan who would have no chance under COP with her underrotating half of her tiny jumps, weak spins unable to get level 4 and nothing expect choreographed sequence that could have gotten high GOE. But of course it's Kwan so she has to be brought up here even if it's ridiculous. There are actually few skaters, but still, who managed to dominate under both system, namely Slutskaya and Plushenko. Slutskaya consistently got over 190 with much stricter judging back than.

Slutskaya is a good example of someone who could dominate under both systems. She was always a huge threat to win major titles under 6.0 in her first peak from 2000-2002, then dominate until the end of the Olympic season in 2004-2005 and 2005-2006 under the new one. A much better choice than Kwan as Irina under either 6.0 or COP is stronger than Kwan is under COP.

 

[mskater93]

We don't know how Kwan would have been under IJS, though, since she was in a great deal of pain and had numerous physical issues during the advent of IJS. She strikes me as the kind of person who is driven enough to succeed in whatever she undertakes. She didn't have a great spiral and saw Bobek's at Nationals in 95 so worked incredibly hard to improve her own. If she had been totally healthy, she probably would have done what she had to for success under IJS.

 

[pangtongfan]

I agree she could have done reasonably well but wouldnt have dominated. This thread is about people who could dominate both systems and there are better options for that than Michelle.

 

[gkelly]

MIchelle didn't have under-rotation problems. Some people just see what they want to see on tiny videos from long ago and scream <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<.

She didn't have persistent underrotation problems. She did occasionally underrotate jumps, but that's true of most skaters.

 

[Bartek]

MIchelle didn't have under-rotation problems. Some people just see what they want to see on tiny videos from long ago and scream <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<.

And some people don't see what they don't want to see... Michelle did have underroation problems but no one cares and no one dare see that. It's impermissible to examine some flaws in Michelle's skating after all. There are MANY wonderful qualities to her skating but she did have problems with fully rotating her triples. Ok, it didn't matter back then just as flutzing/lipping and spinning didn't. Still, the thread is about skaters who dominate both systems and due to those particular setbacks Michelle wouldn't DOMINATE CoP, period.

 

[pangtongfan]

I wouldnt say Kwan had an UR problem, atleast not a big one to the extent of many of her competitors. COP is so strict however it doesnt take much to get some calls, and even 1 per competition is costly today.

 

[Blades of Passion]

For some famous examples her triple loop from 1998 Olympics was half a turn short of rotation as was her triple flip from 2002 Olympics SP. 3 or 4 of her jumps from 2001 Worlds FS should've gotten <.

Nothing in her 1998 Olympics program was < at all. Her Flip in the 2002 Olympics SP was < but absolutely not half a turn short.

Her 2001 Worlds FS did admittedly have a lot of close calls. Both of the Lutzes, the Flip, and the second Toeloop were all questionable. This is one of those cases that very much calls into question when a jump should be considered landed, though...is it when the very top of the toepick has started to barely touch the ice, or is it when the skate has begun to actually press into the ice? I believe it should definitely be the latter.

That being the case, I would only call her Flip and second Lutz as <. That second Lutz still had a smooth landing and good outflow, though. One of the cases where an underrotated jump deserves +GOE.

 

[gkelly]

Nothing in her 1998 Olympics program was < at all.

The second loop in the freeskate was definitely short. I don't think it would have made much difference to the results, though, especially with the current underrotation penalty as opposed to a full downgrade.

 

[jenaj]

Who, really, has dominated in COP? Yu Na didn't become "dominant" until 2009 and by 2010, she was gone. She has now come back and won Worlds-not a small thing, but still, only one major competition. We will see if she continues her domination. I have no doubt that Michelle in her era would have done just as well under COP. If she underrotated her jumps--and I disagree that she did--she would have fixed it. Michelle is not Mirai. She was that rare mix of extraordinary talent and drive, with charisma on top. As Peggy Fleming said in at 2000 Worlds, you could never count her out.

 

[prettykeys]

I don't really notice any egregious underrotations from the aforementioned MK jumps. I'd say it was the sort of thing you may have noticed if you were looking for it, but it didn't really impact the overall presentation. Not like Sarah Hughes, whose jumps looked obviously wonky to me (but I've seen BoP's analysis that Sarah's air-time was fine, so it's weird) and thus, really really bothered me.

Personally speaking, if 6.0 were happening all the way up until 2010 and beyond, I suspect that it would have been Mao Asada dominating because the CoP rotation and edge scrutiny started happening around 2008 and that's when she begun to get deductions and it changed the way she focused on her technical aspect.

 

[pangtongfan]

Since the start of the 2006-2007 season Yu Na Kim has lost exactly 6 times in 6 seasons of skating (taking off the 2011-2012). That is very dominant, and more dominant than Michelle Kwan ever was. By contrast from 1995-1996 to 2002-2003 Kwan had 8 seasons of skating, I am being kind and chopping off all her non prime years, and lost 16 times total, so an average of twice per season vs Kim's average of only 1 time per season in all her senior seasons. Kim has won 3 of the 7 World or Olympic events she was in, while Kwan has won 5 of the 14 she has been in, but we can drop 2 of those and it is still 5 to 12 which is still only about the same ratio. Kim though also won 3 of the 4 Grand Prix finals she was in, vs 1 of 5 for Michelle. So if Kim somewhat "wasnt dominant", I guess by the same standard Kwan was never dominant, even under 6.0.

In truth one could easily suggest Kwan was ever dominant was the 1995-1996 season and 2002-2003 season (where she did like 3 events including a cheesefest), but she didnt even test herself on the grand prix in the fall 2002 series where she might have had trouble with Cohen who was peaking then before falling off at Nationals and Worlds. Atleast Kim was unquestionably dominant for 2 straight whole seasons while competing regularly in 2008-2009 and 2009-2010. Kwan lost 4 of 5 times she met Tara in 97-98, then had a year she barely competed until showing up and losing Worlds to Maria, then usually lost to Slutskaya from 2000-2002, then had that 2002-2003 season she barely competed but since she handily won Nationals and Worlds I guess you could say she was dominant, then began to decline out of the top the years after. Kim already began dominating in 2007 and 2008, and especialy dominated the 2007-2008 season until Worlds. She set a WR short program and long program score, which nobody would break until she herself did, she won the Grand Prix final both years, she won most of her meetings with Asada, Ando, and everyone else. She just choked in the LP at the 2007 Worlds after beating both Asada and Ando to win her second grand prix event, beating both handily again at the Grand Prix final, and easily winning the short program with a new WR at Worlds; and at the 2008 Worlds had been the heavy favorite to win after owning the 2007-2008 season to that point but entered Worlds with a bad back injury unfortunately.

Kim's dominance over the field at the 2009 Worlds, 2010 Olympics, and 2013 Worlds was never displayed by Kwan anywhere ever, other than maybe the 1998 Worlds, and even there Slutskaya beat her on technical marks in the long program.

 

[Moment]

I don't really notice any egregious underrotations from the aforementioned MK jumps. I'd say it was the sort of thing you may have noticed if you were looking for it, but it didn't really impact the overall presentation. Not like Sarah Hughes, whose jumps looked obviously wonky to me (but I've seen BoP's analysis that Sarah's air-time was fine, so it's weird) and thus, really really bothered me.

Personally speaking, if 6.0 were happening all the way up until 2010 and beyond, I suspect that it would have been Mao Asada dominating because the CoP rotation and edge scrutiny started happening around 2008 and that's when she begun to get deductions and it changed the way she focused on her technical aspect.

I'd have to say this about air time and rotation.

An extremely small difference of 1/100 second in air time, impossible to recognize with a YouTube quality video, can result in under-rotation. In other words frame counts tell pretty much nothing about rotation at all. If there was a noticeable difference the jump will be downgraded and/or the skater will fall on it.

 

[Bdan]

Mao would be a bigger threat- they would ratify almost all her UR's and she rarely falls. Carolina would barely crack the top 8 with her splats

 

[Blades of Passion]

The second loop in the freeskate was definitely short.

It wasn't perfectly rotated but I would not call that as more than 1/4 short. The jump leaves the ice facing the boards opposite of the camera, a completely normal pre-rotation amount, so the allowance point for the skate to land would be 90 degrees past that board (ie, facing directly left of the camera view). Where do you see her skate land short of that point?

I don't really notice any egregious underrotations from the aforementioned MK jumps. I'd say it was the sort of thing you may have noticed if you were looking for it, but it didn't really impact the overall presentation. Not like Sarah Hughes, whose jumps looked obviously wonky to me (but I've seen BoP's analysis that Sarah's air-time was fine, so it's weird) and thus, really really bothered me.

Hughes' jumps were definitely wonky, almost all of them were 1/4 short, I just don't think they were more than 1/4 short, except for probably the Salchow (swingy pre-rotated entrance).

 

[jenaj]

Since the start of the 2006-2007 season Yu Na Kim has lost exactly 6 times in 6 seasons of skating (taking off the 2011-2012). .

But she never won the big one (Worlds) until 2009. Sasha Cohen won a lot of Grand Prix events, too, but no one would say she was ever dominant.

 

[pangtongfan]

But she never won the big one (Worlds) until 2009. Sasha Cohen won a lot of Grand Prix events, too, but no one would say she was ever dominant.

Sasha only won the grand prix final once, and her own Nationals once, both times Kwan didnt even compete. She was never dominant in any sense of the word except the hype machine. Kim did totally dominate 2007-2008 season and to a lesser degree 2006-2007 season until her problems at Worlds. Sasha also didnt win alot of grand prix events (in a relative sense) at all. She only won 5 total in her career, and amazingly she only ever medalled at 8.

However if winning the biggest event of the year is required for dominance, then Kwan was only dominant 4 years max in her career- 1996, 2000, 2001, 2003, but seeing as she clearly was in no way dominant in 2001 despite winning Worlds, and was hardly dominant in 2000 losing the Grand Prix final handily, and being 3rd after the short at both Nationals and Worlds, that leaves only 1996 and 2003 like I already suggested. Kim was overall totally dominant in 2009, 2010, and 2013, in a much shorter career thus far.

In essense in both cases the dominant term is mostly their body of work and results and a whole career. Kwan overall has the best record of her era so overall is dominant, and Kim the same in her era. Considering Kim would have won the 2011 Worlds easily under 6.0 (and probably 2008 where under 6.0 the long program results would be: 1. Kim, 2. Nakano, 3. Asada) she would have been atleast as dominant under 6.0 in her own time though. Kwan as dominant under COP in hers, especialy against the likes of superior COP skaters Slutskaya and Cohen, I doubt it.

 

[Mathman]

I guess it depends on what we mean by "dominant." Win one, lose one, win one, lose one, is not domination.

Let's say a skater is dominant in his/her era if that skater wins four world championships in a row, plus an Olympic gold medal.

Dominant single skaters: Carol Heiss, Sonia Henie, Herma Szabo

Scott Hamilton, Hayes Alan Jenkins, Dick Button, Karl Schaefer, Ulrich Salchow.