Skaters who can dominate both in IJS and 6.0.

[pangtongfan]

I guess it depends on what we mean by "dominant." Win one, lose one, win one, lose one, is not domination.

Let's say a skater is dominant in his/her era if that skater wins four world championships in a row, plus an Olympic gold medal.

Dominant single skaters: Carol Heiss, Sonia Henie, Herma Szabo

Scott Hamilton, Hayes Alan Jenkins, Dick Button, Karl Schaefer, Ulrich Salchow.

This is true. Nobody in modern times, and the post figures days has truly dominated figure skating in the true sense of the word. Well not singles anyway. The closest would be Browning who won 4 Worlds titles in 5 years, but no Olympic medal so no. Oh I guess Yagudin who won 4 Worlds in 5 years and the Olympic Gold. He is the ONLY one who truly has.

 

[Olympia]

I think it was easier to dominate in the old days because school figures had a stabilizing effect on skating performances. People didn't usually crash and burn trying a challenging figure; either they were good at figures or they weren't, and that portion of the competition counted heavily toward the final score. The equivalent in ice dancing were the compulsory dances. In pairs, the equivalent was, well, the understanding that the Soviets were the best. (I'm not saying that grudgingly. At that time, they really were the best: both the strongest and the most lyrical, the best both technically and artistically.)

But certainly in recent years, though we can't say that one skater has dominated, in ladies at least it's been a list of about four or five "usual suspects." It's significant that the three top picks for ladies' singles in the next Olympics were also hopefuls for Vancouver: Kim, Asada, and Kostner. (In previous years Kostner was often a contender though she rarely delivered. Hope that has changed now.) The two missing ones, Rochette and Ando, could very well decide to show up again, and Rochette at least seems to have retained her skills.

 

[pangtongfan]

I agree with you on the figures. The figures served to set the favorites up in their desired places from the start, and give them an often isurmountable cushion, or atleast remove some of their serious theats. Even someone like Witt who observers felt was not strong at figures, regularly was at the top in them once she was established.

Just one thing though, Ando is in no position to just decide to show up. Making it to Vancouver will require a huge effort on her part, if she even chooses to come back that is.

 

[Bartek]

It wasn't perfectly rotated but I would not call that as more than 1/4 short. The jump leaves the ice facing the boards opposite of the camera, a completely normal pre-rotation amount, so the allowance point for the skate to land would be 90 degrees past that board (ie, facing directly left of the camera view). Where do you see her skate land short of that point?


Hughes' jumps were definitely wonky, almost all of them were 1/4 short, I just don't think they were more than 1/4 short, except for probably the Salchow (swingy pre-rotated entrance).

This jump is half a turn short, get over it, finally. She doesn't really leave the ice opposite to the camera. She turns exactly twice in the air; she should've had two and a half revolutions. There is a prerotation in the loop, but you seem to adjust it in such a way that you can claim all her jumps were rotated. They weren't, period.

 

[Blades of Passion]

She doesn't really leave the ice opposite to the camera.

Then where does she leave the ice, from your perspective? LOL.

She turns exactly twice in the air.

That means her skate would have entered the ice when her back was to the camera. This is not the case at all.

 

[Bartek]

Then where does she leave the ice, from your perspective? LOL.



That means her skate would have entered the ice when her back was to the camera. This is not the case at all.

This is precisely the case as she left the ice (and then landed) with her sides being parallel to the board and the camera.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Her skate definitely did not pre-rotate 270 degrees. Feel free to create a screen cap to prove it.

 

[miki88]

I am just glad that Michelle competed under a system that rewarded her for her superior choreography and the overall beauty of her skating.

 

[pangtongfan]

I am just glad that Michelle competed under a system that rewarded her for her superior choreography and the overall beauty of her skating.

Amen to that. I am very glad she competed when she did and won the titles she did. Doesnt change that she isnt a great answer for this thread at all however.

 

[Olympia]

I am just glad that Michelle competed under a system that rewarded her for her superior choreography and the overall beauty of her skating.

I vote yes!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

This is true. Nobody in modern times, and the post figures days has truly dominated figure skating in the true sense of the word. Well not singles anyway. The closest would be Browning who won 4 Worlds titles in 5 years, but no Olympic medal so no. Oh I guess Yagudin who won 4 Worlds in 5 years and the Olympic Gold. He is the ONLY one who truly has.

I would probably add Kim and Plushenko to the list of those who have dominated post-figures.

Kim has never finished off the podium in her entire career, which is truly impressive. A win in Sochi would cement her as one of the most dominant female skaters ever.

Plushenko has 3 Olympic medals, including a gold, and other than withdrawals/Japan Opens he's won gold or silver any time he's competed in competitions since 2000 (about 35 competitions, including 3 World titles).

 

[Olympia]

I think you make a good case for Kim and Plushenko, both in terms of podium finishes and longevity. Kim proved even in 2010, when she was 19 0r 20, that she wasn't just a prepubescent jumping bean who would lose her strengths as she matured. She was already a mature teenager at that time. Now, with her amazing comeback right to the top, she proves that even more convincingly. As for Plushy, he has gone from being one of the youngest major skaters ever (winning world competitions at an unusually young age for a male skater) to one of the oldest—an unusually long career arc.

 

[TheCzar]

Mao have been had much less consistency than kim, even besides URs
In 6.0, flawless/cleaner programs were important

She didnt had many cleaner programs
To be fair, isn't it?

not recently, no- but neither has Kim. It's only the last couple of years that Kim has put out a clean SP and FS, and you can actually count just how many clean programs she has skated. It's not at all a slight on her career, but it is true. However these days, its smarter to put your money on Kim with regards to consistency, and also because she has the IJS like putty in her hands.

 

[TheCzar]

Venlac is a steadfast Kim supporter. He/she was protesting against the posters who did not give Yuna her due on this thread.

Really? I hadn't noticed. lol.

 

[venlac]

not recently, no- but neither has Kim. It's only the last couple of years that Kim has put out a clean SP and FS, and you can actually count just how many clean programs she has skated. It's not at all a slight on her career, but it is true. However these days, its smarter to put your money on Kim with regards to consistency, and also because she has the IJS like putty in her hands.

I said " cleaner"
It's true that kim had not more clean programs than 6.0 skaters. but, she had many cleaner programs(1 or 2 mistakes in one program), it is still so difficult to IJS skaters,
And Mao had always, almost more mistakes than kim. Am i wrong? In only 06-07 season, kim was less consistency than mao, but after that season, she was much, more consistency than Asada

 

[TheCzar]

I don't really notice any egregious underrotations from the aforementioned MK jumps. I'd say it was the sort of thing you may have noticed if you were looking for it, but it didn't really impact the overall presentation. Not like Sarah Hughes, whose jumps looked obviously wonky to me (but I've seen BoP's analysis that Sarah's air-time was fine, so it's weird) and thus, really really bothered me.

Personally speaking, if 6.0 were happening all the way up until 2010 and beyond, I suspect that it would have been Mao Asada dominating because the CoP rotation and edge scrutiny started happening around 2008 and that's when she begun to get deductions and it changed the way she focused on her technical aspect.

I agree, although artistically I think I'd go for Yu Na. Also, Up until 2008, Asada was a bit more fearless technically..I mean she had two 3-3s at the 2008 Worlds, and even with that fall on the 3A. What the IJS does I think is really just nitpick on aspects of figure skating that is more or less splitting hairs. As mentioned already, URs weren't as big of a deal back in 6.0 than it is now.

 

[Olympia]

I agree, although artistically I think I'd go for Yu Na. Also, Up until 2008, Asada was a bit more fearless technically..I mean she had two 3-3s at the 2008 Worlds, and even with that fall on the 3A. What the IJS does I think is really just nitpick on aspects of figure skating that is more or less splitting hairs. As mentioned already, URs weren't as big of a deal back in 6.0 than it is now.

You know, one thing that made me saddest about CoP was that they started dinging Asada for everything. She is such a unique talent, and they boxed her in dreadfully. As you and PrettyKeys point out, it changed her approach and even her mood. While I admire YuNa's talents and am thrilled that she has so impressively mastered CoP, I wish the system had had more latitude for other kinds of skaters. I don't think underrotations are quite so dire as CoP seems to think, and the constant focus on them makes many if not most skaters (particularly ladies) limit themselves and hold back. Maybe I just don't understand skating very well, but this seems like a wasteful way to conduct a sport. It weeds out both promising skaters and eager fans.

 

[Pepe Nero]

You know, one thing that made me saddest about CoP was that they started dinging Asada for everything. She is such a unique talent, and they boxed her in dreadfully. As you and PrettyKeys point out, it changed her approach and even her mood. While I admire YuNa's talents and am thrilled that she has so impressively mastered CoP, I wish the system had had more latitude for other kinds of skaters. I don't think underrotations are quite so dire as CoP seems to think, and the constant focus on them makes many if not most skaters (particularly ladies) limit themselves and hold back. Maybe I just don't understand skating very well, but this seems like a wasteful way to conduct a sport. It weeds out both promising skaters and eager fans.

I haven't read this whole thread, so I apologize if I'm repeating points. I find your post, Olympia, really thought provoking: the idea (I'm extrapolating a bit, maybe a lot) that the CoP may have had disparate effects on male and female skaters, encouraging risk and "innovation" (even if that just means adding a rotation to a jump) among the male skaters, doing the opposite for female skaters.

There is something that has to be explained about the lack of progress/innovation (regress, even) in "ladies'" figure skating since the mid-90s, though the CoP could surely only be one of those factors, since it came along much later.

 

[gkelly]

I think a lot of the innovation for female skaters has been in spin positions -- and spirals earlier in the history of IJS. But the positions aren't really advancing the blade-to-ice part of the sport. Of course, rotations in the air don't do that either.

Certainly step sequences have gotten more difficult. But for whatever reason I don't find women to do as well as men at marrying the blade-to-ice technique with thematic choreography -- in any judging system. Maybe because so many of them are so young.

 

[Pepe Nero]

I think a lot of the innovation for female skaters has been in spin positions -- and spirals earlier in the history of IJS. But the positions aren't really advancing the blade-to-ice part of the sport. Of course, rotations in the air don't do that either.

Yes, I think you're right about that. I didn't think about that. At the same time, it is disconcerting that the areas of innovation and "progress" (I'm being a bit of a relativist with the scare quotes) among female skaters are lower-scored than those among the male skaters (jumps). In general, it bothers me that aspects of figure skating at which male-typical physiology excels is disproportionately rewarded (again, jumps).

Certainly step sequences have gotten more difficult. But for whatever reason I don't find women to do as well as men at marrying the blade-to-ice technique with thematic choreography -- in any judging system. Maybe because so many of them are so young.

That is more mysterious. Here are two hypotheses: (1) The CoP rewards jumping-excellence, which is biased toward male physiology. Thus, females have to put more time and effort into it, leaving less time to develop and perfect step sequences.

(2) The expectation among judges that female skaters exude femininity (necessary for decent PCS) interferes with female skaters' otherwise-desire to develop skills which would evince basic skating competence ("Oh, that's too masculine!", the judge thinks in the back of her mind, in response to the female skater's basic-skating-skills-competence).

Both of these could be true to different degrees.

[ETA] And, it just occurred to me to say: I don't think someone could seriously assert that males are just better than females, for biological reasons, at footwork. That would be nonsense. Heck, I hope I don't have to defend that, of all things.