Like I said, the skating of others were never irrelevant, since whenever other skaters skated better, yuna didn't receive high score - no inflation in 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011 worlds. Do you mean: Whenever yuna skates clean and the others don't, her score is inflated?
What would podium in Sochi be if Kostner, Asada, and Kim all go clean
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Like I said, the skating of others were never irrelevant, since whenever other skaters skated better, yuna didn't receive high score - no inflation in 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011 worlds. Do you mean: Whenever yuna skates clean and the others don't, her score is inflated?
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Then what I should blame if the skater who shouldn't have any advatage neither over clean Caro nor Mao would still surpass them even if they skated clean? Yes, I blame judging system that allows Yunaflation and inflation exist.
What did you say about sending a letter to ISU? Excuse me? Where are you? You are on the fan board, where people express their opinions all the time. That's the whole point of fanboards existance in the first place. So, do everyone a favour, don't try to "shut people up" by offering them to send the letter to ISU. If you can't stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen.
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No. I mean that based on her grossly inflated score at WC-2013 she would have still won even if Caro and Mao skated clean there. That is shamefully wrong.
thank you... It is what I wanted to say
In the opposite with chan, Instead of unfair winnings conversation, there were.. under-ranked conversation at several Worlds.
2011 Worlds.. 2008 Worlds.. she didn't do her best (two clean programs).. but, she had similar mistakes with her competitiors. and she defeated by very small margin( 2008 Worlds - gap with Mao was 2, with caro was 1 / 2011 Worlds - gap with Ando was 1 )
Let's talk.. I think you are very smart cleveler. You picked the way that equation her and Patrick Chan to bashing her
[SUP][SUP][/SUP][/SUP]
Many don't agree with You. Even kim Yuna's fans don't agree
You missed the point, which is completely unforgivable for a mathman. Even if Mao skated clean, which is the title of this thread, they would still be behind Yuna in TES and PCS.
Many don't agree with You. Even kim Yuna's fans don't agree
Then what I should blame if the skater who shouldn't have any advatage neither over clean Caro nor Mao would still surpass them even if they skated clean? Yes, I blame judging system that allows Yunaflation and inflation exist.
What did you say about sending a letter to ISU? Excuse me? Where are you? You are on the fan board, where people express their opinions all the time. That's the whole point of fanboards existance in the first place. So, do everyone a favour, don't try to "shut people up" by offering them to send the letter to ISU. If you can't stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen.
I was giving you an alternate option because you seem to not accept the reality. So it's CoP's fault that Mao and Caro can't skate to a clean program? Once again, you're ignoring the fact that Mao and Caro didn't skate to a clean program. That's the problem here. You seem to create this hypothetical situation where Yuna wins even if Mao and Caro BOTH skate to a clean program. And you know what's really funny? IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE!
So why create a fuss about an event that's non existent?
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Which is good since it leaves some hope for justice in this sport. I don't agree either with what is happening with Yuna's score.
Once again, did you read the title of this thread? Then try again and accept the reality- the title of this thread IS about the hypothetical situation. The one that I gave an answer on. As I said- if you can't stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen. Btw, Yuna wasn't clean at WC-2013 either.
If all three skated cleanly
TES
Mao > Caro > Yuna
PCS
Caro > Yuna > Mao
Since this is a fantasy scenario, let's suspend our disbelief and go for broke
SP
Mao will go for
3F-2Lo, 3A, 3Lo, level 4 on all spins, level 4 on footwork. She will emerge the winner after the SP. If anyone thinks she can't beat the other two in the SP with her layout, you need to pick up a calculator and go back to first grade.
Caro will go for
3F-3T, 3Lo, 2A, level 4 on 2 spins, level 3 on the layback, level 4 on footwork.
Yuna will go for
3Lz-3T, 3F, 2A, level 4 on 2 spins, level 3 on layback, level 4 on footwork.
Both Caro and Yuna aren't going to get level 4 on layback. I can only suspend my disbelief so much.
Caro will have the highest PCS here, but her BV on jumps is about 1 point lower than Yuna. GOE should match or exceed Yuna. Her 2A has the highest GOE, her step seq has the highest GOE.
I think Yuna will be third after the SP, but maybe only .1 or .2 behind Caro. Both will be about 3-4 points behind Mao.
In the LP
Mao will also win
3A
3F-3Lo
3Lo
3fLz
2A-3T
3S
3F-2Lo-2Lo
level 4 on all spins, level 4 on footwork. Even with much lower GOE and lower PCS, she should still beat the other two.
Caro
3Lz
3F-3T
3Lo
2A
3Sal-2T-2Lo
3Sal
3T-2T
Level 4 on all spins and step. Caro doesn't do Layback in the LP.
Kim
3Lz-3T
3F
2A
3Sal
3Lz
3Sal-2T
2A-2T-2Lo
Let's assume she doesn't do layback in the LP and go for level 4 on another spin, level 4 on footwork.
Again, GOE will be very close between Yuna and Carolina.
Removing their common jumps
Yuna has 1 Lzes + 1 2A
Caro has 1 Lo + 1 T
Base value of Yuna will be slightly under Caro's in this case. GOE will be similar. if Caro skates clean, there's no way her PCS will be anywhere under Yuna's.
Would be extremely close again.
In the end, Mao will win, and I honestly don't know which of Yuna or Caro will be second. I think Caro since her PCS deserve to be better. She has better skating skill and better programs in general.
Yuna appears to be unbeatable because her rivals beat themselves. In the fantasy world, it's much closer than that.
TES
Mao > Caro > Yuna
PCS
Caro > Yuna > Mao
Since this is a fantasy scenario, let's suspend our disbelief and go for broke
SP
Mao will go for
3F-2Lo, 3A, 3Lo, level 4 on all spins, level 4 on footwork. She will emerge the winner after the SP. If anyone thinks she can't beat the other two in the SP with her layout, you need to pick up a calculator and go back to first grade.
Caro will go for
3F-3T, 3Lo, 2A, level 4 on 2 spins, level 3 on the layback, level 4 on footwork.
Yuna will go for
3Lz-3T, 3F, 2A, level 4 on 2 spins, level 3 on layback, level 4 on footwork.
Both Caro and Yuna aren't going to get level 4 on layback. I can only suspend my disbelief so much.
Caro will have the highest PCS here, but her BV on jumps is about 1 point lower than Yuna. GOE should match or exceed Yuna. Her 2A has the highest GOE, her step seq has the highest GOE.
I think Yuna will be third after the SP, but maybe only .1 or .2 behind Caro. Both will be about 3-4 points behind Mao.
In the LP
Mao will also win
3A
3F-3Lo
3Lo
3fLz
2A-3T
3S
3F-2Lo-2Lo
level 4 on all spins, level 4 on footwork. Even with much lower GOE and lower PCS, she should still beat the other two.
Caro
3Lz
3F-3T
3Lo
2A
3Sal-2T-2Lo
3Sal
3T-2T
Level 4 on all spins and step. Caro doesn't do Layback in the LP.
Kim
3Lz-3T
3F
2A
3Sal
3Lz
3Sal-2T
2A-2T-2Lo
Let's assume she doesn't do layback in the LP and go for level 4 on another spin, level 4 on footwork.
Again, GOE will be very close between Yuna and Carolina.
Removing their common jumps
Yuna has 1 Lzes + 1 2A
Caro has 1 Lo + 1 T
Base value of Yuna will be slightly under Caro's in this case. GOE will be similar. if Caro skates clean, there's no way her PCS will be anywhere under Yuna's.
Would be extremely close again.
In the end, Mao will win, and I honestly don't know which of Yuna or Caro will be second. I think Caro since her PCS deserve to be better. She has better skating skill and better programs in general.
Yuna appears to be unbeatable because her rivals beat themselves. In the fantasy world, it's much closer than that.
The responses in this thread are out of fantasy land or something. Yuna won the last event by 21 points, even after being underscored in the SP. It was one of the greatest skates of all-time, and she won by the most points anyone has ever won by at the world championships ... and then out of fantasy land ... almost all of the posts in this thread are claiming that if she did the same next year, she would lose to "better" Kostner or Asada.
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Your argument is refreshingly data-free. Emotionally charged buzz words like "-flation" do not bolster it.
This is not surprising, however. This whole thread invites us to speculate on what might happen in a nonexistent alternative universe.
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The responses in this thread are out of fantasy land or something. Yuna won the last event by 21 points, even after being underscored in the SP. It was one of the greatest skates of all-time, and she won by the most points anyone has ever won by at the world championships ... and then out of fantasy land ... almost all of the posts in this thread are claiming that if she did the same next year, she would lose to "better" Kostner or Asada.
judges' attitude is diffrent 'all three show good performance' with 'Only kim had clean programs, and others have several mistakes'.
And, I don't think clean kim would lose to clean kostner at all. no way
?????? This post was suggested clearly since there are people who do believe that Asada or Kostner have a winning chance over Yuna BASED ON WC-2013 results. I do not understand why you keep arguing Yuna will win no matter what based on the same scoring. Honestly, I think Asada will win if she goes clean, really again, based on WC results. (Unless Kostner gets crazy PCS.)
Come back to real world. Here's what happened in WC :
1. Kostner got higher PCS over Yuna in SP with fall on 3T+3T. If she did not fall, she would have won SP. Here, no Yuna-flation obviously.
2. Why there's huge GOE gap between Asada and Yuna : Since Asada got negative GOEs for 2ft 3A, URed 3F, URed 2loop, edge call on 3lz. And she got 65+ on TES only. She got PB 134+. What will happen if she goes clean and gets positive GOE on every element she missed? Her TES will be certainly higher that Yuna's. it's easy math. What about PCS? She will get higher PCS than WC by going clean.
Asada and Kostner lost since they made not even one, but 3 for Kostner(1 for SP, 2 for LP) and 6 for Asada(2 for SP, 4 for LP) mistakes here and there. And I think 196+ for Asada with something like 6 mistakes was quite generous.
@ But you know, Asada doing clean 8 triple program.... Not going to happen.
No kidding. Anyone who has posted more than 1000 posts in GK would know enough about figure skating to get why Kim got huge GOE and PCS -- and that Mao and Caro's GOE and PCS would go up astronomically just the same if they ever go flaw-free on both. They haven't. No one else has, at least not in Worlds. So there's no point in arguing Yuna PCS and GOE are higher than the rest when others go perfect. If it happens, then you can argue the point until your face is blue, but that has not happened yet. In fact, not a lot of high-level women figure skaters has been able to lay down flawless free since CoP, or back-to-back flawless programs in Worlds.
And comparing Yuna Kim to Chan? Following that logic, Kim should've won gold 2010 and 2011 Worlds, but she didn't, did she? That should shut up all the detractors, but no, of course not. Seriously, anyone who's watched figure skating for any substantial time would know there's a world of difference between Kim's and Chan's winnings this year (and anyone who doesn't know anything about skating would not question her win, either, geez), and yet. Defending your favourites is more than fine, and you may find other skaters to be superior to her, which is of course more than fine, because tastes are subjective, but if you truly think anyone else deserved to win over her at 09 Words or the Olympics or 13 Worlds, then I would probably assume that you're either being childish or doesn't know much about figure skating.
Which is good since it leaves some hope for justice in this sport. I don't agree either with what is happening with Yuna's score.
Once again, did you read the title of this thread? Then try again and accept the reality- the title of this thread IS about the hypothetical situation. The one that I gave an answer on. As I said- if you can't stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen. Btw, Yuna wasn't clean at WC-2013 either.
If all three go clean, Yuna will not win. I believe school did not teach you math because you are not able to do a simple addition. Youre doubting Mao and Caro because Yuna will win anyway because of Yunaflation. I honestly dont give a crap whether or not who wins but your assumption that Yuna has an "Yunaflation" is utterly wrong and disrepectul for the skater. She earned her score and her wins and sorry that your "favorite" skater hasnt earned that. Have a sense of mind and respect skaters for their effort.
And me not able to stand the heat? At least I gave you a reasonable statement on why Mao and Caro will surpass Yuna, but youre just blaming on Yunaflation.
Everyone's analyses of the base value are very interesting. Still, I can't get past the fact that no lady has come near the kind of points that Yuna has scored when she nails her programs. Maybe she won't of course but even her LP score at worlds last year ... nobody's ever beat that score ... except her. Right? Unless I'm blanking on something.
I'd love it if it were a close competition and it very well could be because nothing is completely predictable in figure skating. Still, in the unlikely scenario that all go clean, I have to bet on Yuna.
I'd love it if it were a close competition and it very well could be because nothing is completely predictable in figure skating. Still, in the unlikely scenario that all go clean, I have to bet on Yuna.
No you're not blanking. This whole thread has just gone insane. Nobody else has ever come close to Yuna's top scores at international events. Just wishing by anti-Yuna haters and fans of other skaters.
Mao Asada is a big judges' pet and one of the most held up skaters currently competing. She was lucky to place 6th at the 2012 Worlds with a horrible skate (the judges held her up on PCS.) She was held up to win CoC and NHK Trophy this past season with horrible technical skates (Suzuki was robbed of a very deserving win at the latter event)
Asada doesn't get the same GOEs on her jumps as Kim and Kostner because her jumps are of very poor quality. She only has two decent jumps, imo - the loop and double axel. Her "3A" is as bad - or worse - as Lysacek's. It is horribly pre-rotated and cheated on the landing. She can't rotate a 3F. She should always get the UR sign on this jump. She doesn't go into it with any power from the three turn, like Kim and Kostner do. She changes her edge several times on the entry to try to build up the momentum. And she has a horrible flutz. She's not even close to having the upper body strength to hold the outside edge on the entry.
Those are only some of Asada's technical issues. She would need the world's most lenient technical caller to go "clean" in a competition. She is always at the mercy of the technical callers because her jumps are borderline-rotated even on her best days. I believe she gets a significant break from the technical callers - that they often give her credit for too many of her cheated jumps. If she wasn't "Mao Asada," I believe her protocol would look like Mirai Nagasu's - with downgrade or under rotation calls on the majority of her "triples."
So, no, I don't believe Mao should get the same GOEs as Kim and Kostner for her cheated, poor quality jumps. In fact, I don't even think she should get credit for most of them. If she wins in Sochi, it will be because the ISU will have selected the world's most lenient technical panel. With fair judging, she shouldn't have a shot to beat Kim or Kostner, as they both have superior jumps and superior speed/skating skills.
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- May 19, 2011
Nicely said FlattFan.
Yu-Na is an incredible talent and skater. The thing that makes her unbeatable is the fact that she often executes her content and skates to about 90% of her potential the majority of the time and has skated to basically 100% of her potential twice (Olys 2010, Worlds 2013). Mao and Carolina do not do that. Mao seems to top out at about 60-70% of her ability and Carolina at about 70-80% of her ability. Both are capable of much more than they put out...
If Mao skates her content to its max potential, she will win. Simple math tells us that in the fantasy world of everyone being perfect, Mao would always win based on her superior technical capabilities and her ability to max out the levels on everything else she does. She'd still probably come in 3rd in both PCS and GOE but with her +10 boost in TES it wouldn't matter.
If Carolina skates to her max potential, it would come down to hundredths of a point b/w her and Yu-Na...they are that close across the board if both skate to their potential. Assuming Carolina upped her content, she could actually beat Yu-Na in TES (her ability to do a loop gives her more options in the FS). Given that they are so close in PCS, it would be a very tight race b/w the two of them.
In the fantasy world (where everyone is perfect) Mao is the unbeatable one and Yu-Na and Carolina are the ones jockeying neck-and-neck for silver.
However, we live in reality
In reality Mao frequently under-rotates her jumps and her bigger combos are often more miss than hit. This impacts her GOE and PCS negatively and she finds herself chasing the other two.
In reality Carolina opts for easier content and often makes at least one mistake (usually a major one, like a fall) in nearly every program which hurts her TES and prevents her PCS from maxing out (though she still gets very good numbers).
And in reality, Yu-Na is the one who is capable of skating at or close to her max potential every time out and, as a result, she is usually the winner.
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