What would podium in Sochi be if Kostner, Asada, and Kim all go clean

[kwanatic]

If you don't agree on increase of PCS, then let's simply settle down to "agree to disagree". And stop mocking people around. It's pathetic.

I find it hilarious that so many people continue to respond, reiterating the exact same argument over and over and over. The point has been made and supported with evidence multiple times over the course of this thread.

The numbers are right there...no point in trying to change what someone makes such a concerted effort to believe (or not to believe).

 

[ForeverFish]

I want Gracie Gold to be 4th because I don't want her to take anything from the top 3 who are my favorite (some are more than the others)
Of the rest, I like Akiko the most, but I don't think she will make anything out of a 4th place finish. Gracie needs to be 4th because the top 3 will cross the bridge, and she can become #1. Akiko can be 5th.
Ashley can be 6th.

Korpi can be 7th. Unless Hicks is competing, then I want her to be 8th. The rest of them, I don't care for.

The great thing is that Gracie actually CAN place 4th ... she was just a few mistakes away from beating both Ashley and Kanako at Worlds this year. If she had been sparkling clean, she might have edged 190 overall. Unfortunately, I think a medal in Sochi is out of her grasp with Yuna, Mao, and Carolina competing, unless a disaster occurs. But it's still extremely exciting to predict that Gracie will be one of the (if not THE) best in the world soon.

If Gracie is 4th, then I'd want Ashley to be 5th, Akiko 6th, Kanako 7th, Adelina 8th, 2nd Russian lady 9th, Osmond 10th, etc. I think Hicks' chance of qualifying is slim, but hey, stranger things have happened.

 

[kwanatic]

If Gracie is 4th, then I'd want Ashley to be 5th, Akiko 6th, Kanako 7th, Adelina 8th, 2nd Russian lady 9th, Osmond 10th, etc. I think Hicks' chance of qualifying is slim, but hey, stranger things have happened.

The only way I want to see Gracie 4th is if she makes visible improvements to her skating. Mainly I'm talking about her rather "plastic" presentation: the fake smile, the flourishes here and there set in time with the music that still look empty...she's just very rehearsed-looking which makes her skating come off as disingenuous to me.

I'm hoping that as she matures she'll learn to relax into her choreography (she's so stiff and rigid-looking sometimes), feel her music and relate to it rather than use it for background noise as she goes from element to element. If she can do that (as well as hit her jumps) she'll easily be the 4th place finisher in Sochi (if not a medal challenger) and probably the favorite going into worlds and there will be zero complaints coming from my end.

Hopefully she's working hard this summer and we'll see some of those improvements. If we don't she's still very capable of placing 4th in Sochi and 1st at worlds next year...but I sure won't be happy about it.

 

[venlac]

I think this analysis is incomplete. If Mao had skated cleanly her PCSs would also have gone through the roof, just like Yuna's did with a clean skate. With a clean technical performance the judges would have been able to reward Asada's musicality and grace with marks in the nines across the board. Maybe the CoP is not supposed to work this way, but I would bet anything that if Mao skated a technically superior program without error the judges would be very pleased to shower her with PCS points.

The other thing is, with respect to Mao's jump layout "skating her intended program cleanly" means that she rotated and landed the 3F well enough to tack on the intended 3L, so that's another 5.1 points on the tech side. That is, the < on the flip cost her 8 points or so.

Edited to add: I wrote this before I saw the post of Bara1968. I agree with Bara1968's analysis, and I also thank Bara1968 for her series of cool-headed posts a couple of pages ago on this thread.

which difference in PCS is not just because of only kim had clean skate, difference in career and reputation.
Just think about it, and face to fact. Asada had 2 mess up seasons after vancouver, and she finished 6th place in World twice times. kim is olympic champion and she has never been dropped from the podium in her entire career. and she had never messed up seasons, and had not many bombing as well as Asada.

After 07-08 ~ past season, In other words, in almost all seasons since she debuted, she couldn't have even equal rivalry with kim.

 

[ForeverFish]

It is not just because of she had clean skate, difference in career and reputation.
Just think about it, and face to fact. Asada had 2 mess up seasons after vancouver, and she finished 6th place twice times. kim is olympic champion and she has never been dropped from the podium in her entire career.

After 07-08 season, until at this moment, In other words, in almost all seasons since she debuted, she couldn't have even equal rivalry with kim.

How many times has Mao been totally clean across a competition? My bet is very few, if any.

For the last time, this is a hypothetical thread. As in, what COULD happen if she WERE to skate completely clean? It doesn't matter how unlikely it is.

 

[ForeverFish]

The only way I want to see Gracie 4th is if she makes visible improvements to her skating. Mainly I'm talking about her rather "plastic" presentation: the fake smile, the flourishes here and there set in time with the music that still look empty...she's just very rehearsed-looking which makes her skating come off as disingenuous to me.

I'm hoping that as she matures she'll learn to relax into her choreography (she's so stiff and rigid-looking sometimes), feel her music and relate to it rather than use it for background noise as she goes from element to element. If she can do that (as well as hit her jumps) she'll easily be the 4th place finisher in Sochi (if not a medal challenger) and probably the favorite going into worlds and there will be zero complaints coming from my end.

Hopefully she's working hard this summer and we'll see some of those improvements. If we don't she's still very capable of placing 4th in Sochi and 1st at worlds next year...but I sure won't be happy about it.

Well, that's what the off-season is for -- improvement.

Gracie's first competition of the Olympic season is Skate Milwaukee next month, so with her Zoueva program(s?), hopefully we'll see a more musical side of her.

 

[Mathman]

It is not just because of she had clean skate, difference in career and reputation.

I do not agree. I do not think that Kim was gifted with extra undeserved points because of her "career and reputation." I think she earned her scores by the quality of her performance.

Mao, unfortunately, did not skate as well. If Mao had skated better she would have received higher scores.

 

[venlac]

I do not agree. I do not think that Kim was gifted with extra undeserved points because of her "career and reputation." I think she earned her scores by the quality of her performance.

that is not which i was tried to say.

difference in PCS between Asada and kim is of course, since kim is faster and better skating skill. but also plus, kim has been better career and reputation. I think the difference in PCS has more widened between two skaters since that reason. by the way, Isn't it apply to all skaters? normally PCS is affected largely from reputation and career.

 

[minze]

Since this thread is hypothetical. A perfect Mao will be unstopbable. If Mao could complete an 8 triple program perfectly she would win gold. But unfortunatley no one is perfect. And how can they be, those amazing competitors are literally walking and jumping on water.

 

[kwanatic]

that is not which i was tried to say. it is not about what i mean is... difference in PCS between Asada and kim is of course, since kim is faster and better skating skill. but also plus, kim has been better career and reputation. I think the difference in PCS has more widened between two skaters since that reason. by the way, Isn't it apply to all skaters? normally PCS is affected largely from reputation and career.

I get what both you and Mathman are saying. The reason Yu-Na's scores are so big is a combination of the quality of her skating as well as her ability to consistently deliver good performances over the course of her career. That combination has built her a nigh untouchable reputation in this field of ladies...

When skaters consistently perform well it helps to build their reputation with the judges which helps their scores climb higher. Look at Ashley: compare her GP scores from 2010-2011 to 2012-2013. She improved her skating, got more consistent and as a result, her scores shot up. I do believe Mao benefits from reputation scoring (like all the top ladies do) but I also believe her scores would be higher if she were a more consistent skater. Mao's skating plummeted after the 2009-2010 season was up and down and up and down for a long time. She's had to build her way back up; Yu-Na OTOH has not had any real valleys in her skating, though some may count 2011 worlds as a dud which is ridiculous IMO. It reminds me of when Michelle was skating and a silver medal (at worlds) was considered a "failure"...funny how times have changed, huh?

Consistently delivering strong programs feeds into your ability to score well b/c that's how you build your reputation. Likewise, inconsistency can hurt your reputation.

 

[minze]

Sometimes I wish Mao and Kim were from different decades. So, they both could be appreciated for their unique strenghts and talent without this nasty battles some fans partake in. I can undarstand comparing the two, but some people lack objectivity when doing so and put the skaters down. By the way, I am not only talking only about this forum, which I think is faboulus, but every skating forum I have been to there is the battle of kim vs mao.

 

[Mathman]

The reason Yu-Na's scores are so big is a combination of the quality of her skating as well as her ability to consistently deliver good performances over the course of her career. That combination has built her a nigh untouchable reputation in this field of ladies...

I still don't think reputation scoring has been applied excessively to Kim over the years. The opposite seems to be true. The judges have not hesitated to hold her feet to the fire when her performance does not meet expectations.

Look at Ashley: compare her GP scores from 2010-2011 to 2012-2013. She improved her skating, got more consistent and as a result, her scores shot up.

That I agree with. If you improve your skating your scores will shoot up.

I do believe Mao benefits from reputation scoring (like all the top ladies do) but I also believe her scores would be higher if she were a more consistent skater

Of course they would. A "consistent skater" is one who doesn't fall or make a lot of technical errors. Obviously if you don't fall or make a lot of technical errors you will get higher scores than if you do.

 

[bebevia]

Sometimes I wish Mao and Kim were from different decades.

I sometimes think that too, for a slightly different reason: to enjoy longevity of great achievements. ...Er, if that makes sense. We right now have a rivalry we can get excited about, but sometimes I'm afraid that we are spending too much fun too early and will be left empty-hearted after the Sochi. I should be thankful there are still younger skaters who display great talents, but secretly, I can't bring my self to think there's gonna be another omni-talent like Yuna or someone who can do the pretty like Mao.

 

[OS]

I still don't think reputation scoring has been applied excessively to Kim over the years. The opposite seems to be true. The judges have not hesitated to hold her feet to the fire when her performance does not meet expectations.

Thank you for noticing it. It is an ongoing propaganda to continue accuse Kim for over score when she has never won by PCS in her entire career, and when she is boarder lined or making mistakes, she is certainly punished.

What people fail to realise is if this is TRULY a hypothetical thread that allows all skaters to compete max out their content and be all they can be, Yuna would have scored higher than everyone EVEN assume Carolina and Mao can max out their content. The fact is given the status quo, this is still an unlevelled playing field like someone said designed to prop Mao's content (4 year plan project by JSF). Consider the rule changes regardless of how they came about has repress her technical content since the Olympics. Her GOE are repressed by 30%, difficult 3:3 are less valued considered the risks, extra points and +3 GOE awards are now reserved only for 3A, lessen value for her best jumps, upped the value for her rivals best jumps, lessen penalty for UR and falls and therefore perfect techniques are rewarded less than before, removal of spirals and no longer able to include her glorious 2A3Ts. Which by the way, she did several times during her warm up. What do you think she is trying to say? She was directly repressed more than any other competitors out of her maximum capability and it is my fan believe that maybe she made it a strength for her to go perfect.

Had she been allowed to be all she can be like her rivals are trying to do in their content, the others would have no chance. It is a sad state of the sport when you have to repress a great champions for politics, for business, for whatever excuses one can come up with, the effect is the same. All of which makes her Les Mis performance an amazing triumph, beyond what went on ice that day, of which the judges finally are rewarding her properly.

 

[bara1968]

i still don't think reputation scoring has been applied excessively to kim over the years. the opposite seems to be true. The judges have not hesitated to hold her feet to the fire when her performance does not meet expectations.

ita.

 

[minze]

Thank you for noticing it. It is an ongoing propaganda to continue accuse Kim for over score when she has never won by PCS in her entire career, and when she is boarder lined or making mistakes, she is certainly punished.

What people fail to realise is if this is TRULY a hypothetical thread that allows all skaters to compete max out their content and be all they can be, Yuna would have scored higher than everyone EVEN assume Carolina and Mao can max out their content. The fact is given the status quo, this is still an unlevelled playing field like someone said designed to prop Mao's content (4 year plan project by JSF). Consider the rule changes regardless of how they came about has repress her technical content since the Olympics. Her GOE are repressed by 30%, difficult 3:3 are less valued considered the risks, extra points and +3 GOE awards are now reserved only for 3A, lessen value for her best jumps, upped the value for her rivals best jumps, lessen penalty for UR and falls and therefore perfect techniques are rewarded less than before, removal of spirals and no longer able to include her glorious 2A3Ts. Which by the way, she did several times during her warm up. What do you think she is trying to say? She was directly repressed more than any other competitors out of her maximum capability and it is my fan believe that maybe she made it a strength for her to go perfect.

Had she been allowed to be all she can be like her rivals are trying to do in their content, the others would have no chance. It is a sad state of the sport when you have to repress a great champions for politics, for business, for whatever excuses one can come up with, the effect is the same. All of which makes her Les Mis performance an amazing triumph, beyond what went on ice that day, of which the judges finally are rewarding her properly.

This is what i am talking about when I say lack of objectivity. Accusing, the judges and a whole federation of changing the rules to help one skater is outrageous. If the sport is so corrupted why are you a fan?

 

[OS]

This is what i am talking about when I say lack of objectivity. Accusing, the judges and a whole federation of changing the rules to help one skater is outrageous. If the sport is so corrupted why are you a fan?

Contrarily I am fairly objective.

It is precisely I am objective that I became a fan of Yuna Kim. I was a fan of the sport first, and even took up skating myself waaaay before I became a fan of Yuna Kim. I am certainly no fan of the politics of the sport of which I am not alone in seeing corruption ruining fairPlay, never mind how this sport continues to bathe in controversies year end. If you truly do not see it, and don't think it can ruin the sport, then you are not watching with an unclouded mind.

BTW I don't blame any of the skaters personally. They all have to survive the system and do the best they can, some are more advantaged than others, and have to deal with different pressures more than others.

 

[cheerio2]

Consider the rule changes regardless of how they came about has repress her technical content since the Olympics. Her GOE are repressed by 30%, difficult 3:3 are less valued considered the risks, extra points and +3 GOE awards are now reserved only for 3A, lessen value for her best jumps, upped the value for her rivals best jumps, lessen penalty for UR and falls and therefore perfect techniques are rewarded less than before, removal of spirals and no longer able to include her glorious 2A3Ts.

There were practical reasons for such changes that have nothing to do with Yuna or anyone else.

Do you think a 3.3 point jump like the 2A should get the same amount of GOE as a 10 point jump like a quad? I don't think that is fair. Should a really good 2A be worth more than an average 3lutz? I don't think so. I think it's debatable whether the 3A should be considered more like a quad or triple for factoring. I actually think the fairest thing would be to award GOE as a % of the jump value. Like +3 GOE could be 33% of the jump value, +2 GOE 22%, etc. But the general concept of factoring GOE I agree with.

The 3A increased in value, but if you consider that all other triple jumps are around 3 times the value of a double, the 3A value should actually be even higher to be consistent, at least 9.

I don't feel Yuna's best jumps were lessened in value? The lutz value hasn't changed. The flip value has been decreased which gives Yuna an advantage since she's one of few that can do a true lutz.

Removal of spiral was dumb, but Caro and Mao both had good spirals as well, so not sure how this hurts anyone in particular.

Lessened penalty for mild URs makes sense because otherwise UR'd triples by even 91 degrees would have been worth less than a clean double. That didn't make sense to me and would have discouraged skaters from attempting more difficult content.

As far as the limit of two double axels, I miss Yuna's glorious 2A-3T as well, it was spectacular. But, most other skaters cannot do all those beautiful transitions into 2As like Yuna can. She made three 2As in a program look amazing, but most skaters cannot, and in general I don't think most people want to see a bunch of 2As in a program.

 

[venlac]

I still don't think reputation scoring has been applied excessively to Kim over the years. The opposite seems to be true. The judges have not hesitated to hold her feet to the fire when her performance does not meet expectations.

I think both I and 'kwanatic' don't said about that
I said because that is normal tendency in figure skating. And kim has been delivered good competitions consistently, and not dropped from the podium, never had messed up seasons, so built superior reputation. Contrary to kim, Asada... showed many messed up competitions and up and down seasons. And In past season, She finally came back to top skater form.
two's difference in reputations has too widened...So It would increased a bit more difference in PCS of them..

In the past, It didnt much like now. In 06-07, Asada had won kim in PCS, In 07-08, Their PCS was almost equal, In 08-09, 09-10, kim won in PCS by total 2~4. In olympic, Asada defeated to even Joannie in PCS...The difference has grown more and more.

 

[skates_lively]

3A vs. 2As?

As far as the limit of two double axels, I miss Yuna's glorious 2A-3T as well, it was spectacular. But, most other skaters cannot do all those beautiful transitions into 2As like Yuna can. She made three 2As in a program look amazing, but most skaters cannot, and in general I don't think most people want to see a bunch of 2As in a program.

While other skaters cannot do 3A, Asada takes advange highter than ever from 'trying' it. Is 2As simply not worthy it to see compared to 3A(rarely succeded)?
I guess the answer depends on how you look at FS. What I want to see from the figure skating is various jump contents, because Variety makes the program more intereting. Yuna's 2A-3T combination was just gorgeous to look at , well fitted in the program and had a marvolous flow with her artisty. It was a pure joy! It was definitely not just a bunch of double axels. But we can no longer see it. How sad.