Fantasy COP: How much would you deduct for a fall?

[Interspectator]

So, every one falls some times. In your fantasy COP, how much would you deduct for a fall? If too many points are deducted for a fall then the motivation to try difficult elements wanes and skaters might choose the safer options, but if too little is deducted we would -and do- see programs that are full of falls.

Or should the fall simply cancel out whatever element was being attempted?

I'm personally a big fan of creative spins and step sequences, perhaps they should be awarded more points though they may be harder to judge?

Sometimes I'd rather see a quick fall and recovery than a terribly struggled landing....

I'm rambling. Well, tell me what you think?

 

[TontoK]

A one point deduction for a fall seems too skimpy.

How about a 1 point deduction and no points for the attempted element.

It still gets on my nerves that skaters will attempt unreliable quads because they can still rack up points even if they fall on it.

I'm perfectly fine with a handsome reward for LANDED quads (or other jumps), but right now the risk/reward is out of balance.

 

[CoyoteChris]

As Dick Button said at the Friends of figure skating breakfast at Boston, giving any points for a fall is rewarding failure. No points for any element fallen on and a deduction for artistry and skating skills.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I'd only deduct half a point. The -GOE scores need to be increased to more harshly penalize mistakes. A jump with -3 GOE, but without a fall, is pretty much just as bad as a jump you fall on. -2 GOE on an element should be a big deal, but at the moment it's not really.

 

[ahy]

Actually i think if you fall, it shouldn't be rewarded marks... if it's too harsh and base value divided by half and deduct 1 mark...

 

[b-man]

I would say in senior ladies, minus 5, in senior men's, minus 10. In junior's or novice competitions, the deduction should be less. There are a lot of ramifications to whatever method is choosen, but currently the penalty is not sufficient. Many who have witnessed a Chan competition would agree.

 

[Interspectator]

Interesting! I would simply cancel out any points that would have been gained for a fall on a jump. But a fall on a step sequence or a spin would be more problematic. I'm not sure.

 

[Coriana]

Of course then you'd have competitions where skaters would not try quads at all, and fewer triple A's, which is the problem the current system set out to address. Clean, but very dull indeed. With ten marks off, or not credit at all, many would be better off doing all. doubles. There are probably those who would prefer that, but why can't those people stick watching to the ice shows? Also, consider that with the lower reward for trying difficult elements, those skater who have been most criticized for winning on components would win even more often.

 

[EdgeCall]

I have come to believe that punishing falls not too harshly is a deliberate policy of ISU to encourage the skaters to try the difficult stuff. They certainly have an interest to develop the sport further and to let the audience see more of those spectacular 3A's and quads.

On the other hand, winning or medaling with multiple falls (hi Patrick! ) leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth. So I would slightly increase deductions to two or at maximum three points, and maybe we could think about accumulative (is that the right word?) deductions: e.g. two points deduction for the first fall, four for the second, six for the third and so on. One fall should be forgivable and not ruin your chances completely, but if you do a splatfest, you should really go down.

 

[jennyanydots]

I'd still keep the 1 point deduction with maybe a mandatory -GOE. Maybe a greater GOE range is needed to more accurately score elements in general. If you don't give the element any points at all, the men's technical content will surely go back to 2009-2010 or maybe even worse. As currently defined, the PCS is not directly affected by falls and I'm not sure if a mandatory deduction would be the way to go either. Some skaters recover from falls as if nothing happens while for others it really affects the performance, so I still think they should be differentiated.

 

[Ven]

I've always thought there's a balance between penalizing too harsh, so skaters won't push technical limits, and not penalizing enough, which gives incentive to sloppy performances with higher base values.

I think currently, the balance is too far to the latter. Too many sloppy performances with higher base values.

But, I think another issue is GOE ... the judges are far too lenient on +GOEs, and since there's an upper bound limit, it negates the advantage that superior skaters should have on elements.

 

[Bruin714]

I agree with Tontok, no points for the attempted element with a fall, but I think it's best to get rid of the 1 point deduction to simplify.

To counter the possibility that no quads will be attempted, just boost the base value of for the quad enough to make it worthwhile for to attempt.

Which one would you prefer commentators say:

A. That's his/her/their second fall -- No Gold for ________ this time around
B. That's his/her/their second fall -- I wonder whether that's going to be enough for Gold
C. That's his/her/their second fall -- Still should be able to hang onto Gold


For me, it should be A even if you're a Patrick Chan, Yuna Kim, Davis & White, Virtue & Moir, Sasha Cohen, or even my favorite, Michelle Kwan.

 

[GF2445]

No points for a fall seems like a harsh but reasonable idea. It would at least highlight the importance that skaters need a clean long program. To see that a 4T with a fall is still worth 7.30 points (not including the 1 mark deduction for the fall). Is mystifying. It woild also create better separation of marks so there is a clear winner.

In saying that the deduction is used to indicate that there were problems which detracted from the performance. Not having the deduction for falls might make it a little confusing. Maybe they should both cancel the element and havethe one mark deduction to really make it rub in. And to compromise, they can lessen the penalties for underrotations and edge deductions because even though they are 'cheating' jumps, underrotations dont always detract from performance- (mirai nagasu is a good example of thid).

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I agree with Tontok, no points for the attempted element with a fall, but I think it's best to get rid of the 1 point deduction to simplify.

To counter the possibility that no quads will be attempted, just boost the base value of for the quad enough to make it worthwhile for to attempt.

I doubt it's as easy as that. Especially since keeping your difficulty up often means including new jumps in your programs. But doing a jump in practice or doing it in competition are two different things! You can be as consistent as you want in practice, the big tricks often still need time to succeed in a real competition. Look at Jason Browns 3A or Yuzuru Hanyus 4T. Today, both of them are consistent enough to go for these elements even with the high risks of 0 points if they fall. But in their first seasons going for it, respectively, both made so much more mistakes on them, it would have really cost them and maybe they wouldn't have wanted to risk a mendatory 0 points for an element that nonetheless makes her whole routine twice as hard.
And you can't just raise the BV for quads and/or 3As into infinity. That would mean, that if some little jumping bean had a good day and landed 3 quads in contrast to someone who just has one, they'd have already won. No amount of skating skills, choreography, transitions or prasentation could make up for that. That can't be what anyone wants either.

So I would slightly increase deductions to two or at maximum three points, and maybe we could think about accumulative (is that the right word?) deductions: e.g. two points deduction for the first fall, four for the second, six for the third and so on. One fall should be forgivable and not ruin your chances completely, but if you do a splatfest, you should really go down.

That's definitly a good idea! With the third fall and a -6 you're already in the "0 points for an element" area, as it's likely the fall would be on an elements that's BV is less than 6. Yet, it wouldn't encourage skaters to go for risky elements as much.

 

[koheikun90]

i know its a little off topic but i think there should harsher penalties for flutzes and lips. A skater should get credit for the edge take off. So if a skater does 2 flutzes and one flip, the third jump should be invalid and given no cedit. another example, is in the junior ranks. If the prescribed single jump (either lutz or flip) in the short program is taken off on the wrong edge, then no credit should be given.

Finally, downgrades should be given to jumps that are prerotated more than a 1/4 turn. Worst case, Satoko Miyahara. But, downgrades and under rotations should not be given -GOE or +GOE if its landed cleanly. The downgrade itself is a harsher penalty. Id rather see a skater win a competition with downgrades and underotations versus fully rotated jumps with falls and stumbles.

But to answer your question, a fall should be given a deduction of 2 points and 1 point in performance and execution.

 

[spikydurian]

I would like to relate a real situation which I think many of us who have been student may be able to relate to, to this question falls should equal no wins.

I used to have a classmate who, despite not being able to complete her essays, would continually top the class in essay writing. We were baffled and decided to check her out. Reason? Her grammer, style and creativity were so good that despite having marks deducted for not completing her essay, her other near perfect marks gained from other criteria were able to push her essays into the A+ group. When one reads her essays, one wants more.

Should there be a rule that all other marks gained from the other criteria should be void if she did not complete her essay? That would be a double whammy. Should her brilliance in other criteria be ignored totally? Unfortunately, she would have to miss half of the essay in order for us to beat her. She was that brilliant and we were just not her standard despite completing our essays.

Marks on falls are already deducted. And if skaters and coaches (since the rules are made for the benefit of the sport and not the audience, lest we forget) think falls should be discouraged, they should revert to pre Vancouver – falls on jumps equal 0 marks. Then you will have skaters who would never try any jumps until the jumps are second nature to them.

 

[koheikun90]

A one point deduction for a fall seems too skimpy.

How about a 1 point deduction and no points for the attempted element.

It still gets on my nerves that skaters will attempt unreliable quads because they can still rack up points even if they fall on it.

I'm perfectly fine with a handsome reward for LANDED quads (or other jumps), but right now the risk/reward is out of balance.

I think giving 0 points on a fall is a bit harsh and would discourage, esp. the men to attempt quads. I like that the rule has raised the level of diificulty. Thats what makes figure skating a sport. I watched Evans free program in Vancouver yesterday and honestly i was really bored.

 

[bekalc]

I doubt it's as easy as that. Especially since keeping your difficulty up often means including new jumps in your programs. But doing a jump in practice or doing it in competition are two different things! You can be as consistent as you want in practice, the big tricks often still need time to succeed in a real competition. Look at Jason Browns 3A or Yuzuru Hanyus 4T. Today, both of them are consistent enough to go for these elements even with the high risks of 0 points if they fall. But in their first seasons going for it, respectively, both made so much more mistakes on them, it would have really cost them and maybe they wouldn't have wanted to risk a mendatory 0 points for an element that nonetheless makes her whole routine twice as hard.
And you can't just raise the BV for quads and/or 3As into infinity. That would mean, that if some little jumping bean had a good day and landed 3 quads in contrast to someone who just has one, they'd have already won. No amount of skating skills, choreography, transitions or prasentation could make up for that. That can't be what anyone wants either.



That's definitly a good idea! With the third fall and a -6 you're already in the "0 points for an element" area, as it's likely the fall would be on an elements that's BV is less than 6. Yet, it wouldn't encourage skaters to go for risky elements as much.

Maybe the key would be to introduce an overall jump difficulty mark, and penalize skaters there who don't attempt quads triple axels.

The thing is yes you have to attempt those jumps and fall, but why does it mean your results shouldn't be sacrificed. Is it fair to those who have already mastered the element that your getting all of these points for a fail.

And also, I don't mind one fall so much, but I do mind multiple. IF your inconsistent with an element you really shouldn't be trying it twice, and you probably shouldn't be trying multiple elements at a time that your not comfortable with.

 

[Alex D]

So, every one falls some times. In your fantasy COP, how much would you deduct for a fall? If too many points are deducted for a fall then the motivation to try difficult elements wanes and skaters might choose the safer options, but if too little is deducted we would -and do- see programs that are full of falls.

Or should the fall simply cancel out whatever element was being attempted?

I'm personally a big fan of creative spins and step sequences, perhaps they should be awarded more points though they may be harder to judge?

Sometimes I'd rather see a quick fall and recovery than a terribly struggled landing....

I'm rambling. Well, tell me what you think?

You will hate me and some of the skaters will as well, but I would do it as follows. If you perform an element and fall, then this element is not considered in the rating.

Right now FS suffers under a "more & more points syndrome". We have many beautiful skaters who perform elements which they are not confident with. They might land them, or they might not. Its like a gamble every time and the programs suffer under this a lot.


Whenever I have the chance to speak to someone who actually is a judge or does skate, the same topic that we have here comes up quite often, especially after an event.

Not all, but definitely some do agree that the current point system forces skaters to sloppy performances, just because they score high with them. It gives FS some type of "fail competition" sometimes more, sometimes less and it doesn't do the beauty of that sport justice. FS isn't about falling on your butt, but about performing - selling a routine with your body language, combined with elements like jumps, spins, steps etc.

I often like the programs of skaters not competing for medals a lot more, because they actually perform their sport with grace and elegance and don't rush from element to element or perform those with a 50-50 chance of success.

We have a few exceptions to that rule of course and if the other skaters run clean, then hey its great to see as well as they mastered the difficulty, but you also often find exactly those performance less entertaining than those who were less difficult, but performed with attitude and grace. I think its a real pity for the sport, that even many in the media only talk about how many triple jumps someone did, or if there was a quad. That's not what FS is about, it isn't!

If we look back in time for instance at Susanna, one of the great skaters in Europe about 10 years ago - she did the triple Lutz - double Toe, also a triple Flip and I wonder whats wrong with that? Were her programs not just wonderful and sheer of amazing? She didn't need that triple - triple combination or a triple Axel.

I know we have many die hard jumping fans at this forum who only speak about that type of element and hey, I don't blame you for that. But in my eyes, that's just not what FS is all about


The current 1 point deduction just doesn't influence the judges marks at all either. I saw skaters who fell three times in their program and they still scored so much higher in their PC´s than someone going clean. While we all know why PC´s are PC´s, I still think such falls should matter in choreo or int, maybe even SS - after all it influences the smoothness of the performance.

That said I am not a judge at all, but to me the current judging system is far from perfect and very hard to sell to people who are not die hard fans as we are here at the forum or the ice rink.

I was asked so often at Budapest why Maxim and Tatjana won, even though they did so "poor". These questions will never stop and its not good for acquiring new fans. Because sports that you don't understand, seems unlikely to keep your attention for long.

 

[louisa05]

I would like to relate a real situation which I think many of us who have been student may be able to relate to, to this question falls should equal no wins.

I used to have a classmate who, despite not being able to complete her essays, would continually top the class in essay writing. We were baffled and decided to check her out. Reason? Her grammer, style and creativity were so good that despite having marks deducted for not completing her essay, her other near perfect marks gained from other criteria were able to push her essays into the A+ group. When one reads her essays, one wants more.

Should there be a rule that all other marks gained from the other criteria should be void if she did not complete her essay? That would be a double whammy. Should her brilliance in other criteria be ignored totally? Unfortunately, she would have to miss half of the essay in order for us to beat her. She was that brilliant and we were just not her standard despite completing our essays.

Marks on falls are already deducted. And if skaters and coaches (since the rules are made for the benefit of the sport and not the audience, lest we forget) think falls should be discouraged, they should revert to pre Vancouver – falls on jumps equal 0 marks. Then you will have skaters who would never try any jumps until the jumps are second nature to them.

I taught English for 16 years including honors level for seniors. Firstly, I assume that you are talking about in-class essays or essay exams. If a student had turned in unfinished writing to me for a homework assignment, I would have returned it to be finished and taking off late points which would have assured that s/he did not end up with anything near an A+. As for timed essays/essay exams, one of the key points in grading for me was always that the student wrote a clear conclusion. An unfinished essay, no matter its brilliant content or grammar, would not have received an A+ for that reason. Additionally, the grading criteria we used counted organization as a distinct element of scoring and the highest points in that area could not be received for a piece that was unfinished. I also would have spent some time with a student not finishing essays consistently to address the problem and look for time management solutions.

Honestly, either your analogy is made up or you were dealing with very lenient instructors who were easily blown away by style and didn't care enough to address a student's clear deficiency.

So my response is that no, I would not give the essay writer an A+ for not finishing her work. Nor should skaters not see a consequence in points for not properly performing elements.