The Judging Controversy Thread | Page 50 | Golden Skate

The Judging Controversy Thread

For Kim, it should and would have been lev1?

Hee, so how long have you been watching figure skating? Do you know what L1 step sequence even looks like? Can you tell me when edge turn happens? I'm actually curious. :p

You know, I don't think the decision would be rescinded, or that's what anyone - Adelina, Yuna, Caro, Mao or Gracie - would want anyway. That's not the real issue.

If scores like PCS depends on whether the audience is receptive or whether the judges like you better, why do we even need scoring points? Why don't the judges just say then: We like Julia/Adelina better so we'll give it to them. If the judges suddenly decide to award only two or three skaters with +10 points more than they used to get mere TWO MONTHS AGO just because they liked them so much better now (for whatever reason:confused:), but without showing evidence on what exactly improved in them to increase those PCS (especially clear in Julia's performance in single -- she wasn't any better than she was at European, and yet got showered with PCS in Olympics), then how else everyone else supposed to skate?

And how else other skaters supposed to know what the judges are looking for in their skates? It's always been somewhat murky, for sure, but for the last eight years, they have rewarded speed, edge turns, quality of the flow, the cleanliness of the lines. Perhaps casual viewers would not know the mechanics of PCS, but most people who have been following figure skating can tell what gets rewarded in PCS most often and what doesn't. Even with Patrick and supposed inflation, it was clear why he was being awarded PCS, fall or not - for his blade-to-ice skating skills.

Knowing that, skaters work hard on those skills, hoping they would be rewarded accordingly.

They also know musicality and choreography and even minute details like how you use your arms get rewarded for PCS. That's where Yuna gets a lot of pluses. So, they make sure their routine has precision and detailed turns, even if they may not be evident to casual viewers. Skaters know what the judges are looking for, based on how they used to be rewarded in previous years.

But during this Olympics, it all went out the window. Even counting Olympic inflation, they just inflated a few people's scores, by a huge margin. Because, what, the audience loved them? There's no credible explanation. They keep shoving down the same ******** that Yuna lost on TES, not mentioning that GOEs apparently are being rewarded on different scales, but only on certain people. And they insist that they rewarded "more beautiful skater" (their words, not mine) accordingly. Yes. By such a big point of 0.08. That's not an explanation. There's no rhythm or reason, that's why people are suspicious about judging. And if there's no collusion or whatever, then they should at least come out and be responsible for the scores they give out by at least making it clear where the difference came from. Skated from heart? Sold the program more? Okay, and how does that reflect on what the skater laid down on the skate, or how did that increase their PCS by 10? Can they actually show that with math? Or are we just supposed to guess from the audience reaction? Is that the only criteria they have for this load of BS, "skated from the heart"?

On more technical sides of things, how about flutz calls and UR called? Skaters who have been skating for a long time knows the fear of getting dinged for UR. They work for years to fix their jumps in order to above the dreaded > mark on their protocol.

And did Adelina, who's never had a non-UR calls on a couple of her jumps, never, get called on it this time? What about Julia and her flutz? Nope. Apparently they're all clean as a whistle this time in this Olympics. So, did they miraculously fix their jumps? Don't look like it, but okay, if they're going to go lenient on > generally for everyone because this is the Olympics, then I can accept it.

Guess what, they dinged Mao's jumps. TWICE. If they were going to do that to Mao, who skated probably one of the most historic free programs in history, one that would be rewatched again and again, they should've dinged everyone else the same way. But did they? The rules applied so obviously selectively. It was so incredibly blatant I can't even laugh about it.

That's why people are saying the judging was unfair to Yuna and Caro, and especially to Mao, whose program components alone should have scored her higher on any other night. Yuna and Caro's PCS may depend on fickle judges mind, I may be able to concede that, but Mao? Technical scores? C'mon. If they change the rules just for this night, how are other skaters supposed to prepare and practice and actually think they can be considered under the same rules when they're laying down their program in the future?

Obviously, the judges or ISU don't give a **** about their skaters.

I was reading a post from AVClub about the impression on ladies free skating in Sochi, and this part especially got to me:

In skating, there is a mysterious hierarchy at work, and a grading rubric that is Byzantine to the point of incomprehension. Winning is all but impossible, because it’s not that figure skaters are fighting to beat someone else on the ice—they’re actually fighting to achieve an unfair standard of perfection. The specter of “the perfect score” looms over any routine, even one as flawless a routine as those that medaled tonight. You can not lose, but you can’t really win, either.

That's one of the reasons, too, that losers in figure skating are so much more upsetting to me than losers in other sports—because they are confronting a dawning realization that this whole life they’ve lived is a lie. The first person that springs to mind is Michelle Kwan, perhaps the best skater of her era, who spent three consecutive Olympics chasing a gold medal and never won. She was always so close. But there was always someone who could edge her out—competition doesn’t always favor the best, although it does sometimes. And there was always something so tragic about Kwan's story—she put in the work. She had done it for long enough. It was her time. The look on her face after she lost was the one of confusion and inadequacy, the kind that comes when you realize that the rules of the game you were playing were totally rigged, and not in your favor, either.

So you know what? Whoever deemed FS as the Hunger Games was perfectly appropriate. They can randomly change the rules on you for whatever reason at the last possible minutes for the Olympics for their own benefit, never fair to the players, and it's perfectly acceptable because instead of making the rules clear to the skaters, they're spinning the media to blame Yuna for not jumping another triple, as if that was the only factor, nevermind that it was never a problem for her to get ~148 just last year with the same routine. Nevermind that just that very same night, Caro landed 7 and Mao landed 8, and that had no effect on the outcome whatsoever.

They bend the rules for their own benefit. No, they broke it, and told the skaters they will break it whenever they want, however they want, despite their insistence CoP is designed to avoid just that.

And the skaters obviously know it. It's just us fans getting upset. So that manifesto is right. The real competition to Yuna, Caro or Mao wasn't another young Russian upstart who outscores them (not outskate them, mind you). "It's with something nameless, much larger, and much more threatening than another woman looking for gold."
 
Unfortunately, I think the windfall of the controversy will be judges defensively boosting her scores to avoid any further attention to the matter.

If she's skating against Asada, I think it'd be really laughable if her PCS goes near Mao's PCS.

AND Mao has got more triples.
 
Article entitled: 'Any protests over women's event wouldn't meet ISU rules'. Reads:-

Any complaints or protests over the women's figure skating event would be useless because they were not filed within the proper time limit.

Protests or complaints must be filed within 30 minutes of an event, according to International Skating Union rules. That would have meant by 11:30 p.m. Thursday for the women's event, and ISU spokeswoman Selina Vanier said nothing was received before the deadline -- or since.

"We haven't received any letter of protest or complaint or anything," ISU spokeswoman Selina Vanier said Saturday.

"All ISU members know the rules of protest," Vanier added. "That's something that's very clear to our members."

International Olympic Committee spokesman Mark Adams said Saturday morning that South Korea had sent a "protest letter" over the women's event.

"But from what I understand, the letter wouldn't trigger any investigation," Adams said at the daily briefing with IOC and Sochi organizing committee officials. "It's a protest letter."

But Vanier said the ISU hadn't received any protest.

"We haven't received anything," she said.

Hence, any proposed 'protest letter' will be completely futile and will trigger no investigation whatsoever. Moreover, any 'protest letter' will have been lodged without any actual evidence whatsoever of any wrongdoing of any kind. The judges were appointed within the rules, and there is abolutely no evidence whatsoever that the marking was not carried out within the rules. For the South Korean Olympic Committee to therefore file a protest (if that is what they have done) without any hard evidence of any kind whatsoever is an absolute disgrace. To try and deprive a competitor of a gold medal that they won fair and square using underhand methods like this is totally unacceptable. In my view, if it is ultimately determined that the South Korean Olympic Committee have lodged a protest that was not in accordance with the rules and was lodged without any supporting hard evidence of any kind, then South Korea should be stripped of the 2018 Olympics and those Olympics should be removed to another country. It is simply acceptable for a country's Olympic committee to try and deprive a deserved gold medal winner in these circumstances.

This pathetic supposedly proposed protest will obviously go nowhere and the result will remain unaffected.

Nevertheless, there is one point about it that should not be overlooked. If the South Korean Olympic Committee have lodged an official protest, then they could not have done so without Kim Yuna's blessing, as the competitor themselves has to endorse it. Hence, if it has been lodged, then that very fact would demonstrate to all and sundry that Kim did not accept defeat with good grace after all. If that is the case, then many will have lost all respect for her, and she will go down as one of sporting history's sorest losers. That would not be a great legacy to leave the sport with. However, according to the ISU - no official protest has been lodged. Kim herself does not strike me as someone who would moan about a result, and she certainly looked as though she accepted it at the time. My view is, she has accepted it with good grace, and that all this 'protest' nonsense is a zealous fan driven thing. Ultimately, therefore, I very much doubt that an official protest will be made, especially as there is no hard evidence to back it up with, and given that Kim herself accepted the result. As stated, Kim simply does not strike me as someone who would protest a result.
 
If she's skating against Asada, I think it'd be really laughable if her PCS goes near Mao's PCS.

AND Mao has got more triples.

Well, her PCS in the Olympics went way over Mao's. They may just have to keep that up to make it look like Olympics score was legit.

This is sad.
 
Nevertheless, there is one point about it that should not be overlooked. If the South Korean Olympic Committee have lodged an official protest, then they could not have done so without Kim Yuna's blessing, as the competitor themselves has to endorse it.

No, that is incorrect.
 
I am tired of the false arguments being made by the U.S. media with a seeming agenda to squash this controversy, so I'm currently writing an article that will breakdown the scoring and illustrate how outrageous Sotnikova's scores were. We need another wave of outrage and backlash to eliminate the cheats in this sport.
 
Unfortunately, I think the windfall of the controversy will be judges defensively boosting her scores to avoid any further attention to the matter.

ITA.

I don't think Mao should have won but she wasn't rewarded because her skate was better and more complete than Adelina's skate.
 
I want to add this because so many posters are confusing what 7 triple skate means: Adelina did 7 triple+2double axels and Kostner did 7 triple+1doubleaxel. This is why skaters like Gold,Lipnitskaiia and Meite got higher base value than Kostner.
 
I am tired of the false arguments being made by the U.S. media with a seeming agenda to squash this controversy, so I'm currently writing an article that will breakdown the scoring and illustrate how outrageous Sotnikova's scores were. We need another wave of outrage and backlash to eliminate the cheats in this sport.

I would say its more NBC (johnny/Tara), and a select others trying to squash it. I have seen some critical reporting, Bill Plaschke from the LA Times, and in particular Christine Brennan
 
I would say its more NBC (johnny/Tara), and a select others trying to squash it. I have seen some critical reporting, Bill Plaschke from the LA Times, and in particular Christine Brennan

I applaud Mr. Plaschke and CBrennan (I did read their articles earlier), but we really need a 2nd wave of outrage. That's how these things work.

1. People get outraged
2. Other side comes in and tries to calm things down
3. ???
can either die out or people say "we know what we saw, we don't need peacemakers to come in here and tell us to move along"
 
Article entitled: 'Any protests over women's event wouldn't meet ISU rules'.

The rule itself does not apply to the present case. This is not the type of a clearcut question whether a lineback fell shy of a touchdown line or not or whether Adelina two-footed her loop or not. The allegation of the slanted judging panel could be raised after the bio of one judges was available to the public, the wife judge of the president of the Russian Figureskating Federation and a sainctioned judge with a colorful background of bribery. The harm accrued was not acknowledged within thiry minutes after the event. So the rule itself does not and should not apply.
 
Roy Jones Jr. was cheated out of boxing gold medal in 1988. It was found out some years later, and he was awarded OGM. There's no statute of limitations on cheating, contrary to reports that ISU tried to put out.
 
I want to add this because so many posters are confusing what 7 triple skate means: Adelina did 7 triple+2double axels and Kostner did 7 triple+1doubleaxel. This is why skaters like Gold,Lipnitskaiia and Meite got higher base value than Kostner.

Yes, but Adelina had a two-footing landing and received minus GOE. Carolina was clean. And yet guess who received higher PCS between the two? :rolleye:

If you want to play that base value game, okay:

Adelina's BV for free was 61.43. Mao was 66.34. That's 5 point base value difference alone. Adelina landed 7. Mao landed 8. Mao was also clean. She got dinged UR, but that was less of a visible mistake than Adelina's landing. But apparently Adelina's jumps are extremely better than Mao's and has so much better choreo and everything, because she received enough GOEs and PCS to overcome that base 5 difference, and add 7 more points on top of that, because Adelina still scored 7 points higher than Mao.

And people think this is fair. Whatever.

Seriously, in what world do you think this is justifiable?
 
Yuna had harder jumps and higher base value in short program. Liars and misleaders on NBC don't seem to bring that up ever.
 
South korea files complaint on ladies results

Looks like the games begin again. South Korea on behalf of Yuna obviously(though i am sure they will word it that itis done by S. Korea - good pr and mangemetn of their star has filed an official complaint about the ladies results though the Olympic committee says they yet to have received this letter of complaint. Could a second gold be coming. I would encourage Russia to file one in pairs and Canada in both men and dance - they all are legitimate complaints imho. But the problem is the marking system and the discretion of the judges. If you take away judicial discretion then ironically you h ave corruption again. Yuna despite all this is a champion. For that matter they all are champions. this is the year that no one was a convincing champion. I would say give gold to the top two teams or skaters in each event lol - but seriously good arguments for the second being gold. Yes the scores weren't that close but you could see in the spectrum of normality that you could see no. 1 being no. 2. And vice versa. If the judging is corrupt it wasn't Adelina's fault or even Davis and White or whoever. But corruption will be hard to prove when you have judicial discretion. Harder when the so called experts and armchair judges aren't in agreement either.
 
Yes, but Adelina had a two-footing landing and received minus GOE. Carolina was clean. And yet guess who received higher PCS between the two? :rolleye:

If you want to play that base value game, okay:

Adelina's BV for free was 61.43. Mao was 66.34. That's 5 point base value difference alone. Adelina landed 7. Mao landed 8. Mao was also clean. She got dinged UR, but that was less of a visible mistake than Adelina's landing. But apparently Adelina's jumps are extremely better than Mao's and has so much better choreo and everything, because she received enough GOEs and PCS to overcome that base 5 difference, and add 7 more points on top of that, because Adelina still scored 7 points higher than Mao.

And people think this is fair. Whatever.

Seriously, in what world do you think this is justifiable?

Don't be too defensive. :laugh: I'm only saying this because when you are comparing seven triple skate, you have to consider 2As too. If you want to compare Sotnikova's seven triple skate, Gracie Gold's one is much more suitable

Kim's Technical Element Score:69.69
Kostner's Technical Element Score:68.84
Gold's Technical Element Score:69.57

You can see Gold's TES is higher than Kostner even with a fall. Also she is tied with Kim, and yes even with a fall.
 
Back
Top