The Judging Controversy Thread | Page 117 | Golden Skate

The Judging Controversy Thread

Interesting point. I reckon Yuna tends to not show her emotions until after she finishes the program. Over-excitement during the program can cause loss of concentration - and you really don't want that, especially if you have a few elements to go. Her choice of LP music for this season was to display maturity and with a song that is meant to be dedicated to a late father, it would be inappropriate to show as much energy and happy emotions as Adelina did.
I've made this very argument and I'm sure I would have again had Yulia skated clean. I am one of those who prefers what I call a soft or under emotive tone. Especially when the music calls for it. I most defenitely think controlling your emotions after a jump pass such as the 3lz-3t shows your confidence in yourself and your ability. I like to see it rewarded in the pcs scores. Same applies if someone stumbles and shows conviction in the rest of the program by fighting back and maybe delivering better than expected results in spite of the mistake.
 
I've made this very argument and I'm sure I would have again had Yulia skated clean. I am one of those who prefers what I call a soft or under emotive tone. Especially when the music calls for it.

What about requiring players to perform to the same music for SP to make objective comparisons easy among players?
 
Wow, are you guys still talking?
Guys, guys, guys, wait a minute! You see, you are saying the Russians screwed Yuna, right? In fact, it was EXACTLY OPPOSITE! Yuna should be thankful to the Russians, because they actually did Yuna a huge favor!
You see, if the Russian media hadn't screwed up Lipnitskaya, then Yulia would have had two clean performances, just like in the Teams, and Yuna would have had not the 2nd place, but 3rd!!! lol
So she should be very very thankful to the Russians. They helped her a lot!! lol

If Yulia had been put ahead of Yuna, I think you'd see the largest scandal ever, topping 2002 SLC. In a way, I guess Yuna can be thankful to the Russians because of all the controvery/questions that commentators/figure skating legends/reporters/other figure skating fans have asked, while calling Yuna as Queen - thanking her for that graceful performance. She's had more publicity than ever whilst still holding records under her belt (first woman to reach 200s, first woman to achieve grand slams, first woman who hasn't finished off the podium in her entire career). Sotnikova still has miles to go in achieving what Yuna has - we'll just have to watch and see.
 
What about requiring players to perform to the same music for SP to make objective comparisons easy among players?

I know I couldn't listen to the same song 20-30 times. I'd rather it be the same elements to different music. Even though it pretty much is so to speak although different variations. I'd like the spiral sequence back!!
 
Russia and ISU designed the judging scandal long ago?

http://voices.yahoo.com/scandal-fraud-death-figure-skating-12547557.html?cat=9

Excerpts from Scandal, Fraud, and Death of Figure Skating written by Jesse Helms

The 2014 Sochi Olympics will be remembered as the day when the ladies figure skating finally met its demise. It was the Russian mob politics that robbed Yuna Kim of South Korea of her rightful gold medal in front of the global TV audience. It was the ISU's premeditated device, since they began promoting the 15 year old Julia Lipnitskaia, that turned upside down the COP system as well as the integrity of figure skating....It had been set up already long before the game began. Last year throughout the Grand Prix, Julia Lipnitskaia caused a storm winning every competition with her consistency but questionable qualities and super inflated scores...This is not an anomaly in which those pro Russian judges and the mad Russian mob raped and butchered the sport in live TV. It was the ISU that conceived it all several months ago...

Is that close to the truth or a mere speculation without firm evidence?
 
Not sure. Anything is possible with Putin. Not that I don't like Russia (some of my friends are Russian), I just don't trust Putin. I did read somewhere that he worked above and beyond to get the Olympics hosted in Sochi, in order for Russia to escape the world's perception of his country as dark and underdeveloped, after the collapse of the Soviet Union. I guess he wanted to show the world that Russia was strong by boosting the economy. But then again, he wouldn't have wanted to host the Olympics for the benefit of the other nations, so he needed his own countrymen/woman to become champions and symbolize growth for Russia. Subsequently Putin emphasized support for certain sports where figure skating was one of them. That said, there's nothing wrong with supporting your own country's sports teams unless there has been any inappropriate activities which I don't think the public will ever have enough evidence to prove this unless some catastrophic event erupts. But yes, the possibility is out there.
 
I feel like something that hasn't really been brought up was Adelina's enthusiasm and Yuna's seeming lack thereof and how that affected the judging. But should it have? I don't think so.

Adelina's skated great and she skated a mostly clean program and it was during the Olympics. She emoted her pleasure after each successful element and at the end of her long program. The home crowd went crazy and judges would have difficulty not letting this affect her score, particularly her PCS. At one point she waved to the judges (I'm not sure if that was part of her choreography because I had not seen her skate this season, but I am sure that is true for many of you as well. Did the judges wave back as if she was a Von Trapp child, we will never know. 9.5-9.75 PCS. Sorry for the digression)

Now to Yuna:

Yuna seemingly did not show much much enthusiasm during or after her skate. If she had, would the judges have thought better of her program or been more impressed by someone they thought was really in the moment? If Yuna showed as much enthusiasm as Adelina did, would the judges or even us fans think she was acting? Quite possibly. Yuna, at this stage of her career, would not act that way after a clean program. Why? Because she has been clean more often than not in the long program in major international competition over the last four years (which is astounding btw) which means it is just a day at the office.

Could Adelina's enthusiasm only help her score? Absolutely. Can Yuna's apparent apathy only hurt her score? Absolutely. Should it? Absolutely not. Why? Because singles figure skating is basically a splatfest, and this includes every skater not named Yuna Kim. So, judges shouldn't hold it against that she can't get excited about every perfectly executed jump or every clean program she does. That would be holding her self- confidence against her which is what I believe occurred in Sochi.

I genuinely think that is not the case. I want to believe that the judges are a little smarter than that. (they are.) In the past I met quite a few people in the forums who thought Yuna was not "emotional" enough (which is ironic considering that in Sochi she somehow became a symbol of artistry in contrast to Adelina's "Athleticism") just because she doesn't look so happy like other skaters who are obviously thrilled to land a jump. Seeing skaters being happy because they execute elements without mistakes has indeed been a norm in a not-so-distant past. (Watch any of Tonya Harding's programs, for example) With the rise of Yuna/Mao, we finally have (or had) programs that actually interpret music and "theme," where jumps and other difficult elements are part of the stories they sell, not a job skaters are afraid of performing. They took the skating under COP to a different level - a story telling, art, music - not a circus where you get applause for performing tricks. It's totally different level of skating from Adelina's, in which Adelina practically keeps her mouth wide open throughout the entire program. (very unattractive, to say the least) And she constantly look at the ice ahead instead of doing choreo - obvious sign of uncomfortable-ness on the ice, which shows up in ice coverage. Yuna/Mao don't appear to worry about where the rink ends and boards are erect, yet their ice coverage is gigantic. They live and breath the ice.

That Adelina's skating received higher marks than Yuna's or Mao's is not an accident that happened in the heat of the moment. You just need to look at Yulia's scores for that. (both in team competition and singles) The "more technical content" argument is also a bogus. Mao received 130 points for her clean FS in 2010 worlds, right after Vancouver, with TWO 3 Axels. Yulia received 135 for her FS in Sochi with TWO falls. We also know how Adelina's technically more lax SP was scored compared to Yuna's. The tech panel was clearly up to no good and there is an essay written by a fellow forum member here. (Thank god it's stickied and easy to find)

Figure Skating Reference: Evaluating Step Sequences

The theory that judges were carried away by the audience just doesn't hold. And if that were really the case, we probably would want to do something about that. Otherwise, FS is no longer a competition but a circus.
 
Is this supposed to be a new revelation. It is pretty clear now that the whole figure skating event in Sochi (not just the ladies) was indeed fixed well in advance. They only got away with it until the ladies as the performances were such all the placements were atleast acceptable. It took an unacceptable result- Sotnikova's gold medal with how Kim and Kostner skated, to cause the blowup, and the uncovering of what was the truth all along.
 
Is this supposed to be a new revelation. It is pretty clear now that the whole figure skating event in Sochi (not just the ladies) was indeed fixed well in advance. They only got away with it until the ladies as the performances were such all the placements were atleast acceptable. It took an unacceptable result- Sotnikova's gold medal with how Kim and Kostner skated, to cause the blowup, and the uncovering of what was the truth all along.
Yeah and Savchenko/Szolkowy were just skating poorly because they were heartbroken at the fix! They deserved to be awarded the gold, not the bronze! :biggrin:
 
Yeah and Savchenko/Szolkowy were just skating poorly because they were heartbroken at the fix! They deserved to be awarded the gold, not the bronze! :biggrin:

I know you say it is a joke but oddly enough it might be partially true. :laugh: As it was I thought they were held up to even beat Pang & Tong, but it was also unfair they didnt have a flying fig of a chance to win even had they gone clean with a clean throw 3 axel at the end, and that probably affects you mentally.
 
Heck if someone wants to see athleticism I'd suggest Joannie Rochette. Even she wasn't so cheap with ear-to-ear smiles.
 
The rumor feeds of crazy or false ideas, in certain articles and comments it looks like a paranoiac frenzy. Independently of the facts, I cannot understand such a pouring of hostility.It is not justice
 
Mao received 130 points for her clean FS in 2010 worlds, right after Vancouver, with TWO 3 Axels. Yulia received 135 for her FS in Sochi with TWO falls.

While I agree about Yuna and Mao, and I thought Julia was overscored, if we are going to compare Mao's Lp 2010 with these scores, Julia is hardly the one only there to single out, with Gracie's 136 from FS with a fall, her pcs have jumped up too in very little time, in general if you notice the marks for Lps have gone really up the last couple of years, this year by a mile, and the final flights all get above 130 with a clean skate, while I remember in 2011 120-130 was a thrilling score for most.

If Men FS performances were set up i ll ask my money back.:)
 
I feel like something that hasn't really been brought up was Adelina's enthusiasm and Yuna's seeming lack thereof and how that affected the judging. But should it have? I don't think so.

I think if anything else, if you're overly happy about doing a jump then it actually takes away from the artistry of the performance. It makes it seem like you're happy that you got lucky or something rather than that the skill was easy to you.

For example, when you watch Cirque du Soleil, do you see them smile whenever they finish one of their acrobatic skills? Other than posing to get the audience to cheer, they simply do their stuff and move on. Would it be appropriate for them to start "raising the roof" for holding a difficult gymnastics pose?
 
To play's devil's advocate 12 of those were on spins which she is very good at, out of a possible 27, so I think those are fair. The problem is the 18 on the stsq and the jumps that don't add up, compared to the 10 Yuna received. Yuna's StSq was unfairly called as level 3 in both programs but she should have been receiving all +3s with the odd +2 for how well they were executed. Everyone has said that at this particular competition Adelina's jumps were very good. What doesn't make sense is Yuna's jumps being undervalued. If other's are receiving +1 and 2s for things such as more transitions into and out of jumps, then Yuna should be receiving many more +3s for the best height/flow. i couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the protocols. How on earth could they not have given +3s for her 3-3?

Agree.
Here is Yuna‘s 3-3 in order of [Sochi official - NBC - fancam] angles. Sochi camera did not do Yuna justice.
http://mlbpark.donga.com/mbs/articl...ge=&mbsW=search&select=stt&opt=1&keyword=Á¡ÇÁ

Actually, I am happy (or was happy at the first) for Yuna‘s OSM because she gave two beautiful performances. But what hurts my heart is that the judges made Yuna look inferior technically by giving GOEs & level by different standard from Adelina.
 
The rumor feeds of crazy or false ideas, in certain articles and comments it looks like a paranoiac frenzy. Independently of the facts, I cannot understand such a pouring of hostility.It is not justice

It depends what you're looking for. If you look for hostility, you'll find evidences that express hostility. If you look for genuine wish to understand what happened and why so many people are upset, you'll learn a lot about figure skating technique, scoring system, organization, and history. I did :)
 
Agree.
Here is Yuna 3-3 in order of [Sochi official - NBC - fancam] angles. Sochi camera did not Yuna justice.
http://mlbpark.donga.com/mbs/articl...ge=&mbsW=search&select=stt&opt=1&keyword=Á¡ÇÁ

Actually, I am happy (or was happy at the first) for Yuna‘s OSM because she gave two beautiful performances. But what hurts my hearts is that the judges made Yuna look inferior technically by giving GOEs & level by different standard from Adelina.

This is for now. I think you have to give time to analitical journalists to do the research and write books :)
If the corruption is involved to the level it looks like then we can't expect fast changes but we have to be thankful for this Olympic score that has draw attention to the problem and shown the direction where to dig and will bring changes further in future this way.
 
I feel like something that hasn't really been brought up was Adelina's enthusiasm and Yuna's seeming lack thereof and how that affected the judging. But should it have? I don't think so.

That could be considered under the "Physical, emotional, and intellectual involvement" criterion for Performance/Execution
"...each skater must be physically committed, sincere in emotion, and equal in comprehension of the music and in execution of all movement"

That's a pretty subjective criterion, though. We can decide how sincere or comprehending of the music the skater looks to us, but we can't know what's really going on inside their heads and hearts.

Another relevant criterion would be "Projection": "The skater radiates energy resulting in an invisible connection with the audience"

Again, whether we feel such a connection as audience members (or judges) will probably have as much to do with our own preexisting mindset toward specific skaters as with what the skaters themselves do on the ice.

These are the most subjective criteria in the rules, perhaps the least sport-oriented, as written. Whether they should be there at all, or should be rewritten to focus more on what the skater does than on how it makes the judge feel, is certainly debatable.

But they are there. If these qualities happen to stand out to a judge either positively or negatively they can certainly make a big difference in the P/E mark that judge chooses to award.

I don't think they refer primarily to visible reactions to successful elements but at least as much to how the skater goes into the elements and the whole performance.

At one point she waved to the judges (I'm not sure if that was part of her choreography because I had not seen her skate this season, but I am sure that is true for many of you as well.

I did rewatch her Europeans LP, and she did the wave there as well, so I believe it was choreographed.

With the rise of Yuna/Mao, we finally have (or had) programs that actually interpret music and "theme," where jumps and other difficult elements are part of the stories they sell, not a job skaters are afraid of performing.

This is hardly new to the current era, though. There have been exceptional skaters in all eras who have had programs that actually interpret music and theme, etc.

Among Olympic medalists in the TV era, Janet Lynn, Oksana Baiul, and Michelle Kwan stand out in my mind as examples in the ladies' event.

Among men, John Curry, Alexei Yagudin, Jeffrey Buttle, Daisuke Takahashi.

And quite a few others to varying extents.

They took the skating under COP to a different level - a story telling, art, music - not a circus where you get applause for performing tricks.

I'd say it's more a continuum than an either/or.

But here's someone who won a world medal by telling a story about performing circus tricks -- and later went on to call the tricks in Sochi.

Oh, let's not forget this circus story either. :)
 
How is this any different from the Korean judge being on Yuna's Kiss and Cry show? I don't think there is anything strange about a judge and skater from the same skating federation knowing each other.

Was it the same judge who judged her in the Olympics?

They need to go back to 12 judges for the Olympics and Worlds. Saying they don't have the money to do this is laughable.

Old Speedy (Ottavio Cinquanta) defends using questionable, corrupt judges like Yuri Balkov, so obviously they are scraping the bottom of the barrel with the number of available judges... :think:

True statement on the presumption of burden of proof. It's on the ISU. That is why they release the protocols to begin with. When questions arise about the accuracy and legitimacy of those protocols, it's their job to explain them.

Yes, they can't just brush them under the rug. I still do not understand why the ISU refuses to answer questions.

I don't understand where the merit is in this argument. You guys have really treaded out into the sticks. If the scores were corrupt, biased, or wrong to begin with, it doesn't matter how you combine them.

Exactly. It doesn't matter if the scores were "statistically" unlikely. The fact is they were inaccurate scores. It doesn't matter how "likely" it was to have happened. It happened.

I think if anything else, if you're overly happy about doing a jump then it actually takes away from the artistry of the performance. It makes it seem like you're happy that you got lucky or something rather than that the skill was easy to you.

For example, when you watch Cirque du Soleil, do you see them smile whenever they finish one of their acrobatic skills? Other than posing to get the audience to cheer, they simply do their stuff and move on. Would it be appropriate for them to start "raising the roof" for holding a difficult gymnastics pose?

LMAO. Good point!

http://voices.yahoo.com/scandal-fraud-death-figure-skating-12547557.html?cat=9

Excerpts from Scandal, Fraud, and Death of Figure Skating written by Jesse Helms

Is that close to the truth or a mere speculation without firm evidence?

If a large chunk of people (several million) are speculating it, is it merely speculation?

That could be considered under the "Physical, emotional, and intellectual involvement" criterion for Performance/Execution
"...each skater must be physically committed, sincere in emotion, and equal in comprehension of the music and in execution of all movement"

Yuna didn't appear any less "physically committed" in 2010, when she won by a landslide. I believe she just has a calm personality. Why should it be held against her? Why was that same "physical commitment" a historical performance in 2010, but just not good enough in 2014?
 
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