The Judging Controversy Thread

[cchen24]

Oh, I thoroughly agree with you. The SP and earlier flights should have zero influence, but as pointed out, that's idealistic and not possible.

Indeed I do agree that Mao getting so much lower PCS than the top 3 and even lower than Julia was completely ridiculous, but that was essentially the marking of the whole event. I mean, Gold got a personal best with a fall, Sotnikova beat Kim and Kostner, Lipnitskaia got a personal best PCS with a fall, etc.

Thank you!!!

I do believe that there are ways to fix this skate order problem.
I was following the posts here when the competition was ongoing. Most people here knew, after Yulia finished, that there is no way Yulia should be given higher PCS than Mao.

The posters here knew when the competition was ongoing but the judges did not.
I smell something fishy...

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

We are talking one of the best skaters in the world, Mao Asada, not so unknown skater.
She delivered a career best LP and the judges would be foolish not to know that.

The judges did acknowledge that... she did get a career best LP score.

The issue wasn't Mao being underscored. It was Julia being overscored in both segments and this deliberate progression of Russian skaters' scores all season compared to others. In Sochi, with a downgraded fall, Julia scored 65.23, while a perfect SP four months earlier at Finlandia by Julia scored 65.49.

 

[cchen24]

My question is simple. Why then is it ok to take REPUTATION into consideration like you clearly did above but then tell everyone else to be "fair" according to your standards? Wouldnt taking Mao's reputation into account when scoring be more unfair than taking Mao's SP into consideration.

This is not the typical term of judging based on reputation. Let me elaborate on this:

If you were appointed to judge the ladies event, wouldn't you try to do your homework to get some ideas about who the top competitors were and what they have done? I don't know about you, but I would, as most skating fans would as well.

Mao, Caro and Yuna would easily be on my list as some of the top competitors since they are the reigning World medalists.
Mao and Yuna also happened to be the reigning Olympic silver and gold medalists going into Sochi.

Does that mean they would automatically get a pass from me? NO!

Does that mean I would watch their performances very closely? YES, and regardless of their skate order!

When I saw anyone of them perform close to their highest potential, would I guess that might be one of the best performances in this competition? Yes.

If a performance like that happened, would I try my very best to register it in my brain and use that to evaluate other top competitors coming up later? YES.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I do believe that there are ways to fix this skate order problem.
I was following the posts here when the competition was ongoing. Most people here knew, after Yulia finished, that there is no way Yulia should be given higher PCS than Mao.

But again, in a very short span of time you are asking the judges to go back and review every single previous skater to determine exactly where you would want Julia marked. I don't think any judge would remember exactly how they marked Mao in the moment they gave Julia her marks. Mao shouldn't get special treatment; if you want the marks to be right each judge must have sufficient time to review the marks given to every previous skater so that each subsequent skater is marked exactly where they should be. This could take several minutes for later competitors. This might have rearranged some of the placements for skaters outside the final two groups but I think the judges put the skaters where they wanted in the final group.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Does that mean I would watch their performances very closely? YES, and regardless of their skate order!

You would be a poor judge. You should watch every program carefully. To suggest top skaters deserve more attention is biased. Which competitors' performances would you not watch carefully?

 

[yuki]

My question is simple. Why then is it ok to take REPUTATION into consideration like you clearly did above but then tell everyone else to be "fair" according to your standards? Wouldnt taking Mao's reputation into account when scoring be more unfair than taking Mao's SP into consideration.

This is not about reputation, but about what was performed that day (and acknowledging that, unless she completely implodes, Mao is better than Yulia PCS-wise). Let me put it this way: which of Yulia's components do you feel were equal to or better than Mao's, taking into account only their respective FS performances in Sochi?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

The judges did acknowledge that... she did get a career best LP score.

The issue wasn't Mao being underscored. It was Julia being overscored in both segments and this deliberate progression of Russian skaters' scores all season compared to others. In Sochi, with a downgraded fall, Julia scored 65.23, while a perfect SP four months earlier at Finlandia by Julia scored 65.49.

The real reason I call the Olympics a "5" ring circus is because scores can swing 5pts up and usually do. Yulia had a very very wonky 2a in Finlandia. She hesitated on a wobbly edge and was froze before she began her transition out. But her PCS was over scored in Sochi. I've never seen anyone deny that so I'm not sure what's up for debate here. To be honest I couldn't watch her Sochi FS at first but now that I have its not as bad as I remember it. Poor kid.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

This is not about reputation, but about what was performed that day (and acknowledging that, unless she completely implodes, Mao is better than Yulia PCS-wise). Let me put it this way: which of Yulia's components do you feel were equal to or better than Mao's, taking into account only their respective FS performances in Sochi?

I never disputed Yulia's PCS should be higher..ever ....anywhere. I just said I didn't think Mao should have finished higher than Yulia or Gracie overall because her SP was THAT BAD!! cchen24 keeps saying judging needs to be fair and I agree but then uses Mao's reputation as a scoring qualifier and goes so far as to say the judges should know it.

 

[cchen24]

You would be a poor judge. You should watch every program carefully. To suggest top skaters deserve more attention is biased. Which competitors' performances would you not watch carefully?

poor judge? Whatever!

I am not saying Mao deserved more attention than anyone else. I am saying, after carefully evaluating her LP just like I would to every one else, I would have known this was probably going to be close to the top of the competition. If a good performance came up later, I would carefully evaluate if that performance was indeed better than Mao's.

Is this biased or fair judging? or, poor judging?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

poor judge? Whatever!

I am not saying Mao deserved more attention than anyone else. I am saying, after carefully evaluating her LP just like I would to every one else, I would have known this was probably going to be close to the top of the competition. If a good performance came up later, I would carefully evaluate if that performance was indeed better than Mao's.

Is this biased or fair judging? or, poor judging?

Poor and unfair! You don't understand the ISU guidelines. You don't judge based on other skaters! You judge based on the set guidelines. There is subjectivity there based on what you as a judge emphasize but that is why the scores are averaged between 7 judges.

No one thinks Yulia's PCS should be higher than Mao

I do maintain Mao overall wasn't better than Yulia or Gracie but that's just my opinion and I could see how someone could disagree. Which emphasizes the value of a 9 judge panel.

 

[cchen24]

I never disputed Yulia's PCS should be higher..ever ....anywhere. I just said I didn't think Mao should have finished higher than Yulia or Gracie overall because her SP was THAT BAD!! cchen24 keeps saying judging needs to be fair and I agree but then uses Mao's reputation as a scoring qualifier and goes so far as to say the judges should know it.

When did I say the judges should use Mao's reputation to judge her?

You think Mao's score in SP is too high? Maybe so, since I think her PCS should be lower in SP.
Overall, should Mao be ahead of Yulia and Gracie?

Here is my take:
If we accept their SP scores as fair, then Mao probably should be ahead of Yulia and Gracie.
Yulia shouldn't have gotten higher PCS than Mao and the boost in PCS Gracie got was quite unbelievable, considering she was 6.x points lower in the team event with a clean skate.

Now, if you want to address the issue in the SP. I am more than willing to read your DIY analysis to see what Mao's score in SP should be. But let me remind you: the score differential (relative to other skaters) is what matters, but not the score itself.

 

[yuki]

I never disputed Yulia's PCS should be higher..ever anywhere. I just said I didn't think Mao should have finished higher than Yulia or Gracie overall because her SP was THAT BAD!! cchen24 keeps saying judging needs to be fair and I agree but then uses Mao's reputation as a scoring qualifier and goes so far as to say the judges should know it.

Mao got punished enough for her bad SP by being dropped to 16th place. Also, the overall score is just the sum of the scores in the 2 segments, nothing more. If Mao did enough in the LP (and arguably she did), of course she should have finished above Yulia as long as she managed to bridge the point gap between them from the SP.

Again, I was referring to Yulia's PCS specifically being higher than Mao's in the Sochi FS. Mao having the performance of her career should have outscored even a clean Yulia in PCS, never mind a rather shaky and hesitant Yulia. That this did not happen was a clear example to me (at the time of watching) of home favoritism and bias and it made it pretty clear how the rest of the scoring was going to play out. In the event that Carolina had imploded (not unexpected), it is entirely possible that Gracie would have received PCS similar to her Team FS and Yulia would have ended up on the podium with big mistakes in both programs (since she was given scores that kept her as an outside shot for bronze). Would you have considered that a fair outcome?

(Just to be clear on this: I don't think that Mao should have been on the podium and with how the top 3 skated, she didn't have a chance anyway. However, she should have been 4th.)

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

No and as I continually post it's a disservice to score her that high. I also said today , here on this thread I'm glad the skating gods knocked her down to keep her from a medal. Mao winning bronze would have been just as unfair though.

Here is my earlier post

I too agree anonymous judging needs to go! But who here doesn't really. In regards to the inflated scores my take again was first oh it's just the Olympics. It's a "5" ring circus with wild scores. While I maintain Yulia was by far the best lady overall and earned her medal as much as anyone in any sport. That 141 in the team event FS was a disservice to her. She was wobbly. She knew it. That should have been a 135 at best. We have all seen her nail that skate and while that was close and the pressure that country put on her was there she held on with very minor flaws. So I was actually nervous if she nailed Schindlers List she would get a +150!! I didn't want that for her and I tell myself the skating gods kindly knocked her over for her own good. At least she came out with a medal and as a 15yr old who has now skated in the Olympics twice.

Bottom line...it's not up to the skaters it's up to the 1) the ISU to enforce the rules. 2) the federations to uphold the standards of fairness and excellence. After all is said and done they are the ones sending these judges. Do not be fooled into believing that Russia is the only one who participated in this. There could be any number of federations expecting paybacks in the future in return for generous judging or various other kickbacks by other means.

 

[cchen24]

Poor and unfair! You don't understand the ISU guidelines. You don't judge based on other skaters! You judge based on the set guidelines. There is subjectivity there based on what you as a judge emphasize but that is why the scores are averaged between 7 judges.

No one thinks Yulia's PCS should be higher than Mao

I do maintain Mao overall wasn't better than Yulia or Gracie but that's just my opinion and I could see how someone could disagree. Which emphasizes the value of a 9 judge panel.

The so-called guidelines are always going to be vague because it's not going tell you what, in exact terms, deserves to get 8.5 in skating skills, or 7.25 or 6.75 or 9.75.

At the end of the day, the most important task for the judges is to rank all the skaters. Under the 6.0 system, they only had two marks to use (technical and presentation). Now, there are TES and PCS which includes five categories. In other words, the judges now can easily identify all the skaters' strength and weakness in various aspects of their skating, relative to others.

Put it this way: You have given 8 in skating skills to skater A. Now skater B just finished her program, would you be thinking if skater B's skating skill is better or worse than skater A? The guidelines aren't going to tell you exactly how to mark skating skills. Yes, you will need to COMPARE the two skaters, period. Different judges may have different preferences but they do compare the skaters.

I thought this was common sense. But to you, it is poor and unfair judging?

Can you elaborate how you would judge? Now you get me all curious!

No one thinks Yulia's PCS should be higher than Mao? Sorry, the judges did!!! And that's what matters because they are the ones to handle out scores.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Mao, Caro and Yuna would easily be on my list as some of the top competitors since they are the reigning World medalists.
Mao and Yuna also happened to be the reigning Olympic silver and gold medalists going into Sochi.

Does that mean they would automatically get a pass from me? NO!

Does that mean I would watch their performances very closely? YES, and regardless of their skate order!

I am not saying Mao deserved more attention than anyone else. I am saying, after carefully evaluating her LP just like I would to every one else, I would have known this was probably going to be close to the top of the competition. If a good performance came up later, I would carefully evaluate if that performance was indeed better than Mao's.

If you say you would watch certain competitors' programs carefully, isn't that implying not everyone would get the same attention? Nonetheless, that isn't the main point. You say that any good performances later would have to be compared to Mao. Actually, to be completely fair, all later performances would have to be carefully evaluated against all previously skated performances in the event, not just Mao's. That's where it becomes a bit impractical for these judges to get things exactly as you want to see them in the time they are given to score so many factors of the program, and to fairly compare each skater to everyone before.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Mao having the performance of her career should have outscored even a clean Yulia in PCS, never mind a rather shaky and hesitant Yulia. That this did not happen was a clear example to me (at the time of watching) of home favoritism and bias and it made it pretty clear how the rest of the scoring was going to play out.

Gracie also scored awfully close to Mao in PCS, so it wasn't only about home cooking. Mao would normally clear Gracie's PCS by a wide margin.

 

[yuki]

No and as I continually post it's a disservice to score her that high. I also said today , here on this thread I'm glad the skating gods knocked her down to keep her from a medal.

I'm afraid you didn't understand my scenario. I was assuming that a) Carolina imploded (like she has done at the previous 2 Olympics) and b) Gracie got similar PCS to her Team FS, which would have lowered her score by 6.44 points (the overall difference between Gracie and Yulia was 4.96 points). This would have brought Yulia on the podium with the exact same skates that she had, falls or no falls. So it was not really the skating gods keeping Yulia from the podium, but rather Carolina herself having a great FS. If Carolina hadn't delivered, I'm fairly sure this is how it would have played out - and it would have been made possible, among other things, by Yulia's overscoring in the FS so that she could still be above Mao overall.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I'm afraid you didn't understand my scenario. I was assuming that a) Carolina imploded (like she has done at the previous 2 Olympics) and b) Gracie got similar PCS to her Team FS, which would have lowered her score by 6.44 points (the overall difference between Gracie and Yulia was 4.96 points). This would have brought Yulia on the podium with the exact same skates that she had, falls or no falls.

Why would the judges score Gracie higher than she deserved just because Carolina skated well?

 

[yuki]

Gracie also scored awfully close to Mao in PCS, so it wasn't only about home cooking. Mao would normally clear Gracie's PCS by a wide margin.

True, but by the time Gracie skated, she wasn't much of a threat to the podium. At that point, the gold was all but handed to Adelina already and Carolina had skated well enough to be on the podium herself (I assume no one expected Yuna, of all people, to majorly implode). It's nothing more than speculation at this point, but I believe that if Carolina had bombed, Gracie's PCS would have been lower, since they would have had an opening to push Yulia for bronze.
Of course, Frank Caroll's comments after the team event could have also played a role in the magical rise of Gracie's PCS, who knows .

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Of course, Frank Caroll's comments after the team event could have also played a role in the magical rise of Gracie's PCS, who knows .

For me, although Gracie's PCS was below Mao and Julia, it should have been much lower. She looks like a robot out there.