Looking back on the careers of Yu Na Kim and Michelle Kwan

[pointyourtoe]

Let's be real, if Michelle Kwan competed in this year's Worlds---even at her peak---she'd be lucky to make it in the top 5. Kwan is an icon. She had unique presence and form on the ice, but she wasn't an incredible technician, and in that respect the ISU's standards are higher than the 6.0 system's.

This hypothetical doesn't make sense because Kwan was never trained as a child/adolescent under IJS. Also the sport is meant to advance over time. Katarina Witt never would've won the 98 Olympics with what she put out in 88 or 84...Kristi's program in 92 or Oksana's in 94 never would've won in 98 either..we could go on..

1998 6.0 vs 1978 6.0 are still very different things so it's not just about the difference between IJS and 6.0, but also how the sport progresses in general. Overall, 6.0 valued seemingly clean programs and the "full package" while IJS values the quality of the specific elements and jumps

 

[Hanmgse]

Refuse to compare the two at all anymore.

Kwan is the Kween of 6.0 and Yuna is the queen of IJS. Period.

Agreed, there is no point in comparing them.

 

[KwanIsALegend]

Personally, I prefer MK. But I also think that it's really difficult to compare skaters across eras. Both Yuna and MK should be remembered as the greatest skater of their respective eras.

Agree.

 

[nguyenghita]

Well, who's care if they are at the same leauge or not?

No one outside US and her personally fans care much about Kwan

No one outside Korea and her fans care much about Yuna

No one outside their country and skating world care much about them

At the end of the day, it will become the question: who do you love more?

End of story!

 

[dwk5183]

It makes no sense to compare those two from different era as many people mentioned above. I like the comment "Kwan is the Kween of 6.0 and Yuna is the queen of IJS. Period," by "pointyourtoe"

Since long time ago, Yuna kept saying that Michelle was her role model. It means that there may be something about Michelle that Yuna thought was great ... that may include Michelle's great performance, lots of remarkable achievements, etc. Also, Michelle gave lots of compliments to Yuna many times after Yuna's competitions. They are under different scoring systems so it makes no sense to compare them to each other.

Of course, Michelle's 5 World titles are incredibly remarkable. But it does not necessarily mean that Michelle is better than a skater who won world title less than 5 times, right? On the other hand, Yuna has achieved "All Podium" in all competitions she's attended so far and also she is Olympic champion, which is also incredibly remarkable. It, however, does not necessarily mean that Yuna is better skater than Michelle. That's it.

 

[mirai4life]

Now that Yu Na Kim's career is likely over it is time we concede she is nowhere near the legend of the great Michelle Kwan. The only way the two would maybe be even comparable is if Kim had won her 2nd OGM, which she failed to, skating cleanly and still losing to a mediocre skater no less. .

i stopped reading there.

 

[Meoima]

i stopped reading there.

True, some people have big hole in their logic. I don't even know why this thread has not been closed.

 

[Components]

Only official results matter. Just like you could say Yu Na maybe deserved the gold in 2014 (and yes I have said that as practically everyone else on the planet who saw the event did), you could say Michelle maybe deserved the gold in both 1998 and 2002, deserved the gold at the 1995 and 2004 worlds, and it could go on forever. Michelle has had as many controversial defeats as Yu Na, or more, so in the end comparing the two it is irrelevant. Michelle's career is now much better, as is her skating.

I watched the event and don't think she deserved the Gold in Sochi. Most people who are content with the results are also content to keep their mouths shut. The discontent are usually have a 100x higher chance of complaining out loud than the content. Think about that

Kwan has a good argument for winning in 1998. She only Flutzed once and her program was an artistic masterpiece back then. The quality in basic skating was a bigger contrast between Kwan and Lipinski in 1998 than Kim and Sotnikova in 2014. Kwan had decent spins back then that were competitive with Tara's (Tara's Layback and Sit were better, Kwan's Camel and Combos were better. Both had good spirals and extension. Tara was faster in Nagano, noticeably. Tara's program was more difficult, though. The disparity in difficulty was similar to Sotnikova vs. Kim in Sochi, actually.

I think people overrate 3-3's in ladies skating. It isn't about the combos you do; there is no "bonus" for doing a 3-3. The only phase of the competition where the 3-3s are decisive is the Short Program, since there is only one combination jump pass and the difference between a double and triple is large point-wise. However doing a Lutz/Flip combo may not be worth it if you have amazing toe loops and can combo them really well... They will still score well as a combination due to GOE. In the FS, it's about the # of triples you do, their distribution, and the total BV of the program. As long as you perform them well, your GOEs will be good. I'm pretty sure Tara's 3-3 was in the second half of her program, though, which is probably why the judges always seemed to go GaGa over it... Never mind, she didn't UR a single jump (just the Salchow was fishy, since it was landed with no speed, but it was rotated).

For example, if Yuna did a 3Lz-2T and then a 3S-3T her BV would be the same as if the back ends were switched.

Kwan received some significant home town advantage in the SP in 2002. She should have been second in the SP. Clean Kwan was like 0 or 10 vs Slutskaya (not literally, but just to get the point across) in the SP going into SLC, and all of a sudden Kwan with a forward/scratchy/wonky flip solo jump is beating Slutskaya's technical clinic. It was laughable (she usually could win with her second mark and a clean program in the FS so I'm not sure why the judges had to take it that far...). The judging was all over the place at that competition and Russia did file a protest but they lost that battle. However, I didn't hear anyone complaining about the marks she received there... Shocker! Those Olympics were, obviously, in the USA.

Hughes won because she was clean. Yes, there were more than a couple UR'd jumps in there, the posture wasn't the best, and she could Flutz with the best of them, but that was 6.0. That judging system had different focuses than IJS.

If it was 6.0, Vancouver would have gone completely different than it did. Asada wouldn't have been forced to do 3 Triple Axels because she would have been able to do 2 Lutzes instead. There were no edge calls there and top skaters were almost never penalized for Flutz (ask Yamaguchi) unless they were both from the same country and the judges wanted a reason to rank one over the other. This actually still happens in IJS, and is why the scores and protocols from National championships are usually not reliable. A lot of coaches from the 6.0 era have been interviewed and pretty much said "who cares if the Lutz is off an outside or inside edge?!" That was status quo back then...

 

[pointyourtoe]

True, some people have big hole in their logic. I don't even know why this thread has not been closed.

Agreed!

 

[Mathman]

Only official results matter.

I am astonished that you are taking this position. Midori Ito won only one world/Olympic championship; Janet Lynn none. I guess they were not in the same league as Gabriella Seyfert and Miki Ando, with two, not to mention Anett Poetzsch with three.

 

[nimi]

I hope they'll close this thread. Meanwhile, let me repost this:

As for the title of this thread, of course they are not in the same league. A league in sport implies everyone has the same ground to compete freely and fairly, yet Figure Skating is inherently an unfair sport due its very nature of determining the results that relies on 100% human judging. Actually human judging is not the problem, but more to do with the fact these judgement are the usual derivatives from the power, culture, influence and the governance of the sport with their convoluted old worlds politics, ie/ Keep it in the family since they bloomin' paid $$$ for it. The only way human judging can work fairly is to actually implement a system where the panel of judges do not have any conflict of interest and be held accountable personally for their quality of judging. This is not possible under the way this sport has always been run under the same regime, lead by a president who did all he can to stay in power for 20 years! Crazy!

Michelle skated for the all mighty USA and with it she inherited the legacy of Janet Lynn, Fleming, Hamill, Boitano and importantly the richest contributor to ISU funding during the 6.0 era. For that she is simply a league of her own in this sport. The most important skater under 6.0, not just to do with skating. Ironically not awarded her the OGM probably kept ISU in good business for a few more years. Japanese skaters probably are just as important financially to ISU more than other nations under the COP era, along with US. (Anyone know which nation pays the most for their TV broadcasting rights? Rank?)

The ISU 'world' championship has always been bit of a joke to me because of its name by definition is simply false. It might as well be renamed 4 nations (+ guests to make up the odd numbers.) How will the era after Sochi fair? It depends on whether Mao stays in this sport, and how Hanyu can establish him fully to cover the same fan base, or attract new ones.

Yuna basically had nothing and had to build everything from ground up. Of course it helps she is inspired by the best(s), and with a healthier attitude to Gold does not mean everything. Had Yuna Kim skated for any of the power 4, she will very likely to have had a very different career/path. Less injuries, better training, better and happier experience with a healthier and well balance personal life mixed with skating and not having to be away from friends and family for so long. Michelle will not have had the same career had she skated for China during her time... likely the same for Patrick Chan, although I suspect the rising of China may have a bigger impact on his sponsorship deals. All of these factors can greatly impact on the development of a skater, their level playing field in which they must compete on, and how they feel towards skating, direction of skating, and their personal invested interests etc.

:agree:

 

[Components]

I am astonished that you are taking this position. Midori Ito won only one world/Olympic championship; Janet Lynn none. I guess they were not in the same league as Gabriella Seyfert and Miki Ando, with two, not to mention Anett Poetzsch with three.

No, I don't think most skaters can compare to Seyfert's. She was amazing, and the only reason why she isn't a 5x World Champion and Olympic Gold medalist is because Peggy Flemming competed back then and was also amazing (with a Politically-Adept coach as well).

And it's a shame skaters like her aren't more well-known than they are, due to the political climate back in the 60s/70s and the policies in the GDR restricting her from Touring and things like that.

 

[Olympia]

The great thing about being a skating fan is that one can delve into the past and unearth skaters who have not been remembered as well as they should be for various reasons (as you say, Components, maybe because they weren't allowed to travel in the days of the Iron Curtain). One such is Laurence Owen, who was killed aboard the downed U.S. team plane on the way to Worlds in 1961. She was just sixteen, and there's enough on YouTube to show that she had something really special about her. Another is Seyfert. There are others, I'm sure. John Misha Petkevich of the U.S. is an exciting skater who didn't advance far in international competition (maybe because of school figures?). Thank goodness for YouTube, and for other skating fans with different frames of reference who have already sought out skaters to show the rest of us. I'll check out Seyfert on your say-so; I know very little about her.

 

[sk8ingcoach]

So many things are wrong with this thread. From my point of view, the Olympics trumps all.

Kim has an OGM. And an extremely controversial silver

Kwan has a silver and bronze. Some call her silver controversial but i believe that Tara was better on that day. Kwan had the potential to be the best of all time. But when the time came to prove it, she couldn't.

 

[icemarks]

Oh gawd.. this is exactly the kind of thread that makes figure skating fans look catty and immature.

As far as I'm concerned, Michelle and Yuna are both legends in their own right. They have both worked incredibly hard to achieve what they have, and with all the rule changes in the sport from when Michelle was competing till now, I think it's too difficult to make comparisons, especially sweeping ones like the person that started this thread.

 

[Rubirosa]

Lol. One more whining about Sochi thread. Oh no, here is something new: CLOSE THREAD!!! Is it in what Yuna fans are these days- closing threads that are not in Yuna favor? Nothing great in it. More reason to respect Adelina, Caro, Mao fans with multiple hundreds-pages threads bashing those skaters in The Edge. Bravo, girls/boys!

In fact Greatness is not about comparing skaters to each other, which is silly business if they don't compete in the same event. Greatness is about what impact the skater had on the sport in terms of development and changes. None of those two are that great. Both were fitting comfortably their own system. In Greatness Sonja Henie beats everyone- she was the one who changed everything. Witt brought new image in Ladies- it's not about ice princesses anymore. You can be athletic sex appealing vamp. The rivarly of Yagudin&Plushenko had a huge impact on sport and since then Men regressed. Japanese fenomena Mao&Daisuke made a stunning revolution in figure skating popularity in Japan. These things are great.

 

[ShootAnonymous]

OP manages to combine Queen Yuna, Holy Kwan and Scandalous Sochi Ladies Judging (referring to Adelina as "mediocre") in one thread.
Flame baiting level 4, +3 GOE?

LOL.

Ugly thread is ugly. (why so much negativity lately ): )

 

[YesWay]

From my point of view, the Olympics trumps all.

Kim has an OGM. And an extremely controversial silver

LOL

OGM trumps all.
Kim has an OGM.
Kim trumps all.

There are others who also have an OGM.
Do they also "trump all"?
No, I thought not.
Unless of course, only Kim has a "true OGM"

No, I don't think Olympic Gold trumps all. Medals are an indicator, but ultimately only skaters can trump other skaters, by direct competition...

 

[YunaBliss]

wow I saw the thread title and saw that it was created by pangtongfan, and my jaw hit the floor. Did Putin pressure you?

 

[Meoima]

wow I saw the thread title and saw that it was created by pangtongfan, and my jaw hit the floor. Did Putin pressure you?

No, I think some people just love to make war. Watch them all burn down... Something like that.