- Joined
- Jan 12, 2004
No, no. The curls must be set free!
BTW, those folks at Nebelhorn Trophy went above and beyond in rewarding the medalists. They got a medal, a plaque, flowers, and Jason got that big-azz trophy for winning.
2014 Nebelhorn Trophy
- Thread starter Alex D
- Start date
No, no. The curls must be set free!
BTW, those folks at Nebelhorn Trophy went above and beyond in rewarding the medalists. They got a medal, a plaque, flowers, and Jason got that big-azz trophy for winning.
HAve to admit the results of this free skate make a compelling case for why Jason could medal at worlds this year. It's still early days, but I could see is PCS going up as the season continues and if he works out the URs that's a whole bevy of points he could scoop up.
So true. I don't know where this extreme doubt comes from. Some people just either don't like Brown or want to keep expectation low for pressure and nerves reasons?
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2014
No Robin Hood, no Peter Pan... it's a wonderful Eropean medioeval (Middle Age) style dance (or theatre) costume with Renesssaince elements. And in the same time is very contemporary haute couture.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2012
FWIW: Max Aaron and Richard Dornbush both had higher total scores at their Challenger events than Jason had here.
Chances are that Jason will improve as the season progresses ... and chances are that others (American and otherwise) will improve as well. :yes:
"Extreme" is how I would describe your optimism. Some of us who love Jason dearly just don't want to count our chickens before they are a lot closer to hatching.
Best of this year so far!
So much for quick calculation. In any case, scoring breakdown of the Top 6
BV
Menshov 73.17
Brezina 72.18
Voronov 64.61
Brown 63.12
Johnson 58.27
Balde 55.97
TES
Brezina 75.37
Meshnov 71.27
Voronov 68.60
Brown 67.74
Balde 55.37
Johnson 53.55
GOE
Brown 4.62
Voronov 3.99
Brezina 3.19
Balde -0.6
Meshnov -1.90
Johnson -4.72
Jumps
Brezina 58.31 (BV 58.28; GOE: 0.03)
Meshnov 55.94 (BV 59.07; GOE: -3.13)
Voronov 53.86 (BV 52.61; GOE: 1.25)
Brown 46.28 (BV 47.52; GOE: -1.24)
Balde 39.90 (BV 42.37; GOE: -2.47)
Johnson 36.54 (BV 44.67; GOE: -7.47)
Spins+ Steps
Brown 21.46 (BV 15.5; GOE 5.96)
Brezina 17.06 (BV 13.9; GOE 3.16)
Johnson 17.01 (BV 13.6; GOE 3.41)
Balde 15.47 (BV 13.6; GOE 1.87)
Menshov 15.33 (BV 14.1; GOE 1.23)
Voronov 14.74 (BV 12.0; GOE 2.74)
Okay, take this in for a minute. Jason Brown scored 5.96 in + GOE for his non jump elements. That's almost equal to the value of a triple lutz. Crazy.
BV
Menshov 73.17
Brezina 72.18
Voronov 64.61
Brown 63.12
Johnson 58.27
Balde 55.97
TES
Brezina 75.37
Meshnov 71.27
Voronov 68.60
Brown 67.74
Balde 55.37
Johnson 53.55
GOE
Brown 4.62
Voronov 3.99
Brezina 3.19
Balde -0.6
Meshnov -1.90
Johnson -4.72
Jumps
Brezina 58.31 (BV 58.28; GOE: 0.03)
Meshnov 55.94 (BV 59.07; GOE: -3.13)
Voronov 53.86 (BV 52.61; GOE: 1.25)
Brown 46.28 (BV 47.52; GOE: -1.24)
Balde 39.90 (BV 42.37; GOE: -2.47)
Johnson 36.54 (BV 44.67; GOE: -7.47)
Spins+ Steps
Brown 21.46 (BV 15.5; GOE 5.96)
Brezina 17.06 (BV 13.9; GOE 3.16)
Johnson 17.01 (BV 13.6; GOE 3.41)
Balde 15.47 (BV 13.6; GOE 1.87)
Menshov 15.33 (BV 14.1; GOE 1.23)
Voronov 14.74 (BV 12.0; GOE 2.74)
Okay, take this in for a minute. Jason Brown scored 5.96 in + GOE for his non jump elements. That's almost equal to the value of a triple lutz. Crazy.
By you know brown would get higher scores than aaron and dornbush
I don't think it's optimism. He won here with 4 urs didn't he? Lol. I think its obvious where this is going because of the pcs and spins and steps.
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2014
I think it was a little too renaissance and needed to be more middle or dark ages. I like the idea. . . but it just seemed a bit to clean and bright somehow for the theme. If they would do some stuff to make it look a bit more worn/broken in, I think it would improve it a great deal. It was too clean looking for the time frame it was portraying. . . I don't see that time as clean, so clean clothing kinda breaks things for me. Maybe if he never washes it, it will be perfect by nationals.
Not sure I would say I dislike it, like the idea, really like the pants, just think it could use some tweaking. More of a B+ than a solid A.
Okay I added it up. Jason lost 9.06 in BV due to the URs and 3.04 due to -GOE (which were only on those 4 URs everything was +GOE) Total points lost: 12.1
67.74+12.10 = 79.84 (strictly at base value...)
79.84 + 85.84= 165.68 FS
165.68 + 83.59 = 249.27 Total
If he had done a clean FS and had his clean SP at Neborhorn, he would have been in 4th at Worlds. (3rd place finisher: 275.93)
So not quite.
That math says he needs a quad. But honestly 4th place without a quad isn't too shabby.
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- Joined
- Sep 20, 2014
I think the costume is fantastic! Like a film of Zeffirelli! Simple but sophisticated!
Natural colors! Soft and elegant materials! Janon in this costume (and hair) is like a very handsom young European renessaince man!
gmyers, I'm sure a lot of it is questioning how is this sport moving forward. Jumps is probably the easiest way to measure growth in this sport. I mean Kurt Browning landed the first quadruple jump in 1988. That was 26 years ago. They been done at the Olympics since 1992. People were up in arms when Jeffery Buttle won his world title 2008 without a quad and the feeling was the same for a lot of people with Evan in 2010.
The thing is, the quad shouldn't be the end all be all to a skater making it on the podium. If Jeremy Abbott was a more consistent skater I think we would have seen him on the world podium once or twice this last cycle and I don't think he would have needed a quad to get there. Just great triples and all of his artistry. I see so many men skate with a quad in their program and it's abundantly clear to me how the rest of their skating suffers. The edge work is lacking, the relationship to the music is almost non existent, and I have a hard time sitting through the majority of long programs.
At least Jason holds my attention for the RIGHT reasons. When a skater like Patrick Chan comes a long you see the phenomenal talent. Someone who's able to combine the transitions and spins that were so lacking in Plushy's performance in Vancouver but then he suddenly has a quad and the way he moves his blade on the ice is like butter. It's almost revolutionary the way he's skates. It's like we didn't know artistry and athleticism could combine to that level. Perhaps Chan broke a glass ceiling we'll see other skaters start to go through.
Perhaps without Chan, Hanyu would still have made the advances he made too, and man what another extraordinary talent that just seems to have it all. It raises the bar for all the men so you suddenly have skaters like Javi and Denis who when they are at their best seem to be able to meld good basic skating with great jumps too and it's such a pleasure.
So when someone like Jason shows up and he's not attempting the quad and he's moving at his own pace - it almost seems like an affront to the system that's set in place. Add to that the fact that he delivers competitive scores on the international scene it can be downright frustrating knowing he's not even attempting the hardest elements that seem almost commonplace for the other top skaters. But to me, that's an athlete, an artist, and a person who is choosing to buck against the pressures and the trends because he knows it's not right for him. He know's what will serve them best as a skater and he's following the plan he's created with Kori.
When someone does something that isn't the expected norm, it can be hard to understand why that choice was made - and THAT will always trigger emotions from people.
For me, Jason's PCS do deserve to be as high as they get. He has lots of transitions, choreography with a real sense of arc and story to it, a relationship with the audience and judges when he skates, a relationship to his music that is undeniable. To have all of those qualities at once is extremely rare in my book. Most of the men today were lacking at least two of these qualities to me.
Is he training the quad? Yes. Is he competing it? No. Does he need it? I think that remains to be seen. He didn't need it today. Skate America may be a different story.
The thing is, the quad shouldn't be the end all be all to a skater making it on the podium. If Jeremy Abbott was a more consistent skater I think we would have seen him on the world podium once or twice this last cycle and I don't think he would have needed a quad to get there. Just great triples and all of his artistry. I see so many men skate with a quad in their program and it's abundantly clear to me how the rest of their skating suffers. The edge work is lacking, the relationship to the music is almost non existent, and I have a hard time sitting through the majority of long programs.
At least Jason holds my attention for the RIGHT reasons. When a skater like Patrick Chan comes a long you see the phenomenal talent. Someone who's able to combine the transitions and spins that were so lacking in Plushy's performance in Vancouver but then he suddenly has a quad and the way he moves his blade on the ice is like butter. It's almost revolutionary the way he's skates. It's like we didn't know artistry and athleticism could combine to that level. Perhaps Chan broke a glass ceiling we'll see other skaters start to go through.
Perhaps without Chan, Hanyu would still have made the advances he made too, and man what another extraordinary talent that just seems to have it all. It raises the bar for all the men so you suddenly have skaters like Javi and Denis who when they are at their best seem to be able to meld good basic skating with great jumps too and it's such a pleasure.
So when someone like Jason shows up and he's not attempting the quad and he's moving at his own pace - it almost seems like an affront to the system that's set in place. Add to that the fact that he delivers competitive scores on the international scene it can be downright frustrating knowing he's not even attempting the hardest elements that seem almost commonplace for the other top skaters. But to me, that's an athlete, an artist, and a person who is choosing to buck against the pressures and the trends because he knows it's not right for him. He know's what will serve them best as a skater and he's following the plan he's created with Kori.
When someone does something that isn't the expected norm, it can be hard to understand why that choice was made - and THAT will always trigger emotions from people.
For me, Jason's PCS do deserve to be as high as they get. He has lots of transitions, choreography with a real sense of arc and story to it, a relationship with the audience and judges when he skates, a relationship to his music that is undeniable. To have all of those qualities at once is extremely rare in my book. Most of the men today were lacking at least two of these qualities to me.
Is he training the quad? Yes. Is he competing it? No. Does he need it? I think that remains to be seen. He didn't need it today. Skate America may be a different story.
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2006
I had two "if only" guys in this competition - Alexander Johnson and Elladj Balde . I enjoyed their programs overall, more than most of the other top finishers ( except maybe Jason). Hope to see them both with better skates later in the season.
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2014
Yes, he can medal if the top guys bombed all their quads.
Anyways it's not like every year we have all the wonderful skate like at Saitama (no one in the top 5 bombed in FS). Denis Ten was not there, though.
But I could take Jason over Denis Ten when all have relatively good skate. Sorry Denis.
Such eloquent thoughts! To jump off your point regarding how the quad impacts a program on the whole, I think that speaks to the fact that while more men can do the jump, they haven't mastered/owned the jump. To the point where they hit it with consistency and to the point where the rest of their program stays intact.
IMO, I can only name four people that I think who has truly mastered it: Hanyu, Chan, Fernandez and Machida. They also happen to be among the top 4 in personal best free skate scores with 180+.
Daisuke has never mastered the quad (though he landed it a few times) but his strong second mark (well deserved) is what kept him in the game. (i.e. staying at least in in the 170s.)
Takahito Kozuka hasn't quite mastered it either. His 180 score came the one time it did (2011 World Championships) but the rest of his scores show he hasn't quite been there with the quad.
I do think there are other guys who will join those four on the list, but the fact is that Jason is behind on the quad, but he's ahead in a lot of ways that cancel out any advantage these other quad guys have.
And the advantage, IMO, is quite small because a lot of them lack the consistency (except for those four guys I mentioned) to do it day in and day out in EVERY SINGLE PROGRAM.
If that changes, i.e. more guys get part of the day-in/day-out quad squad, then perhaps Jason and Kori need to get crackin', but as we saw here--- we saw the guys hit quads to only pop or miss jumps later.
IMO, the bigger factor at this point -- Jason's record on the 3A. That is what kept those guys ahead of him otherwise. That's why you see Jason going for a 3A in the second half. That's why Hanyu can still score in the 90s even with botching the 4S nearly every time this season. Or heck why he can still score 90+ depite botching BOTH his quads. Because he can do two beautiful 3As that score nearly +3 in GOE and have them both on the second half on top of that. (which is what happened at Trophee Eric Bompard last season).
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- Joined
- Sep 20, 2014
Boh... I think this costume is perfect for the original story. I don't know which version of T and I is popular in USA but in Europe no battle, blood etc. in the most kmow story Tristan bring Isolda for the king to wedding but when they are in journey happens a mistake: they drink the magic potion and fall in love... It's a tragical love story not battle and blood... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_and_Iseult See the old pictures of the link
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2014
I would say the pics on that page are kinda more what I mean. The outfits look more broken in and worn. No sign of bright clean white, imperfect hemlines. This costume looks pristine and brand new. And that could be the issue. Pretty sure both Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones both made big deals about breaking in costumes so they look right and not brand new. This could improve just by being worn in and broken into his body. I want it to look more like he has worn it ever day for a year. . . that type of thing.
Like i said, still a solid B+. I don't dislike it, just feel like it is missing things a little bit before it clicks perfectly.
Other people may need a quad but Brown doesn't for all the reasons you mention. He's amazing in so many areas of skating. The spins the steps the chroeo. I'm not sure why your post is directed to me honestly. I agree with every single thing you say about Brown. I just believe he never needs to add a quad to win worlds or medal at worlds. People are always wrong about what he needs to medal and win.
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2014
I think people is getting way excited, yes is good that Jason won, wooohooo for him. But let´s not forget that this is a Senior B competition and he beat Michael Brezina, who was 10th in the Olympics.
All the top skaters are "level up" their technical base value, so we don´t know if Jason will continue to be competitive once the top skaters are again in play.
Having said that, Jason has all the right to play the game whatever he wants.
