Which component marks do you think Irina is overmarked in, and why?

Her only weakness is the non-elegant posture and lack of lines. It is not as bad as some other skaters that routinely get high presentation marks with poor posture (Lambiel, Goebel when he was landing the quads, Stojko, S&P, the chinese pairs, are some of them). IMO that's the only area where she may be overmarked. I find her musical interpretation and choreography to be fine. She chooses music that suits her personality and skating. She does not try to become a ballerina. For the music she selects her interpretation and choreography are fine. The choreo is tailored to fit the COP. Irina is a wonderful artist on ice. We cannot limit our definition of artistry to only elegant skating. That is like saying that if a painting is not done in the impressionistic style, it cannot be a great painting.

Vash

I actually find sometimes Irina undermarked in the areas of "interpretation", "performance", and "skating skills". Certainly at the Olympics she was IMO, but I admit to being an Irina fan. I have to agree with Vash that it seems somewhat unfair Irina is labeled as not an artistic skater because she does not do "Ballerina" skating like some of the others. Her ability to interpret music, her pure skating skills, are among her many fine presentation and artistic qualities.

Her choreography varies between uninspired and ugly, and her interpretation of the music is severely deficient. She is a good jumper, and when she's not trying to force a Bielmann her spins are fine, but she is not a good performer. (Miming dealing tarot cards in her LP last year does not count.)

And no, it does not have to be "ballet". Stephanie Rosenthal was artistic and no one in their right mind would call her SP at Nationals balletic. It has to be some sort of interesting movement in space. Irina is simply going from one element to another. The music is, as was pointed out, just background noise to her. Though at least she doesn't have to flail her arms to cover weak footwork.

julietvalcouer said:

Her choreography varies between uninspired and ugly, and her interpretation of the music is severely deficient. She is a good jumper, and when she's not trying to force a Bielmann her spins are fine, but she is not a good performer. (Miming dealing tarot cards in her LP last year does not count.)

And no, it does not have to be "ballet". Stephanie Rosenthal was artistic and no one in their right mind would call her SP at Nationals balletic. It has to be some sort of interesting movement in space. Irina is simply going from one element to another. The music is, as was pointed out, just background noise to her. Though at least she doesn't have to flail her arms to cover weak footwork.

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I liked Stephanie Rosenthal at nationals but she is nowhere in the league of Irina Slutskaya. This is not a right comparison. Irina is at a much higher level than Stephanie. You obviously dislike Irina so much that you have to call her choreography "uninspired" and "ugly". Anyone who saw her skate at the 2005 worlds would laugh at your word "uninspired". Ugliness or beauty depends on one's taste. The little card dealing move in her LP last year was very much in character with the story she was telling. Every skater has a few moments in the program to catch one's breath. That was her break and it was well done.

Vash

Her performance at the 2005 Worlds was awe-inspiring, and it should have silenced many of her doubters who say she is just a great jumper. After all Miki Ando also did a triple lutz-triple loop that night, and alot of the same jumps Irina did yet you almost fell asleep during her performance, while Irina's drew you in and enthralled you to the end.

This is the wrong place to post this, but here I go:

Why oh why did Irina Slutskaya's 3z-3l get +0s and +1s????? It definitely not a very clean jump, the triple loop. She barely held on to it!

The same goes for Michelle Kwan's 2l at the end of her 3f-2t-2l combination. She barely held on to that either! She too got plus zeroes and ones!

I think Slutskaya is overmarked in general in PCS, but not in all programs. For example, I think her interpretation marks in her 2005 programs were spot on, and her transitions mark in the SP's from last year and this year were rightly high. I think she is overmarked in skating skills, for example, because she pumps to gain speed, and that while she is fast, her bad technique to gain that speed should offset the high marks for speed.

I don't think that objections to Slutskaya's line are out of line just because she's not a ballerina. Joannie Rochette is not a ballerina either, and it doesn't prevent her from finishing her movements. I just saw Mark Morris Dance Group last Saturday, and none of those dancers could be mistaken for ballerinas. Finish, posture, and line are not by any means limited to ballet. They are hallmarks of modern dance, character dance, national dance, and every classical form, from Javanese to South Indian to Native American. Even if the movement is deliberately jagged, the posture deliberately bent, the feet deliberately flexed, the line broken, there is intention. Posture in the 50's through early 70's in particular for Men and Dance was much more upright than it is now, but there was a standard. Without intention or standards, it's sloppiness, in my opinion.

hockeyfan228 said:

I don't think that objections to Slutskaya's line are out of line just because she's not a ballerina. Joannie Rochette is not a ballerina either, and it doesn't prevent her from finishing her movements.

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I disagree with you there, I am a Canadian and so I also like Joannie but I dont find she finishes her moves anymore than Irina does, to the degree Irina might be lacking in that way, Joannie is similarly much, since she does not finish her moves off any better than Irina does IMO.

None as far as "overmarked." BUT, choreography is the biggest weakness she has IMO. Not as rhythmic as some but still more than others.

Re:

Vash01 said:

I liked Stephanie Rosenthal at nationals but she is nowhere in the league of Irina Slutskaya. This is not a right comparison. Irina is at a much higher level than Stephanie. You obviously dislike Irina so much that you have to call her choreography "uninspired" and "ugly". Anyone who saw her skate at the 2005 worlds would laugh at your word "uninspired". Ugliness or beauty depends on one's taste. The little card dealing move in her LP last year was very much in character with the story she was telling. Every skater has a few moments in the program to catch one's breath. That was her break and it was well done.

Vash

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I think non-lyrical choreography is not deficient choreography. A lot of "lyrical skaters" tend to emote with dramatic gestures. Irina doesn't. Her choreography is more like keeping up with the tempo of the music. She manages to time her jumps to the crescendo/climax of the music. When the music is a bit slow/calm, her skating mirrors the calm and the slow beats. When the music becomes more dramatic, her footwork speeds and her arm gestures become more emphatic. Same with her spins. This is not your standard, "emoting/lyrical" choreography. It's more athletic-style choreography. Nevertheless, being in tune with the music in an athletic way still counts as having choreography and feeling the music. It may not be to everyone's taste - especially for those who are fans of your classical lyrical emoting style - but for people who like the "athletic-style choreography", Irina's programs are engaging, passionate, and artistic performances. posture, carriage, line, edging, and dramatic responsiveness to the music are artistic. Irina's "athletic" style responsiveness to the music is also artistic.

slutskayafan21 said:

I disagree with you there, I am a Canadian and so I also like Joannie but I dont find she finishes her moves anymore than Irina does, to the degree Irina might be lacking in that way, Joannie is similarly much, since she does not finish her moves off any better than Irina does IMO.

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I must be watching different performances, because taking her Skate Canada long program as an example, with the exception of jumps where she had difficult landings (2), the rest had a nice, straight, extended back leg in the toe jumps, and strong arabesque positions in the run-out. Her legs are tight in rotation, compared to the open, slightly bent from the waist position Slutskaya has in her trademark 3Lo, her posture is terrific even during cross-overs, her spin positions are uniformly clean, and she even lifts her spinning leg slightly before changing over to the other in her change spins. Although Rochette does not have the extra polish that Cohen and Weir, for example, have through the tips of their fingers and toes, she is a very neat and controlled skater.

IRINA IS NOT OVERMARKED!