US Nationals - What are your thoughts?

Mathman · Jan 5, 2007

SeaniBu said:
And in Juniors this is relevant because they don't do level 4s in areas like Step Sq or just not get scored at that level or something?

No, I meant that it doesn't matter to Kimmie what Caroline Zhang does, because Caroline will be competing in juniors, not seniors, at U.S. Nationals.

As far as I know there is no difference in scoring in juniors and seniors (not sure about that.)

She handles pressure better then I have seen Jordan and comparable to B Bonds.

Joe Dumars of the Detroit Pistons owned Michael when he first came into the league.

As for Scottie Pippin, the first time he faced the Bad Boys in a playoff game he got a severe migrain headache just before tip-off and sat the game out. :laugh:

SusanBeth · Jan 5, 2007

Mathman said:
I don't think that the judges will mark her down for such intangibles as "leaving some people cold and bored" or because she hasn't yet built up and enthusiastic fan base.

JMO. We'll see.

I am not at all sure about that. American's like their Princesses. That's where the big money has always been. Historically, I can make a case that star quality and a large following matters for Ladies- big time. COP will have an effect though. We'll have to see.

SeaniBu · Jan 5, 2007

Mathman said:
No, I meant that it doesn't matter to Kimmie what Caroline Zhang does, because Caroline will be competing in juniors, not seniors, at U.S. Nationals.

As far as I know there is no difference in scoring in juniors and seniors (not sure about that.)

Thanks for the clarification on that, I thought maybe it was scored the same yet the elements weren't there or ...??? I guess there is more clarification to be had here. I just was under the impression from Mao that it was the same and just based on age and the abilities that there in comprise the point totals.

And Kimmie I don't think is going to respond any differently now JMO. She may have something most people of the world don't really have in the nerves department. Like Mohammed Ali with out the mouth, just the nerves of "gold."

SusanBeth said:
I am not at all sure about that. American's like their Princesses. That's where the big money has always been. Historically, I can make a case that star quality and a large following matters for Ladies- big time. COP will have an effect though. We'll have to see.

That I do see as being an issue right now, I don't think these aspects are AS unimportant in CoP as people are making it out to be anyway. If anything the importance seems to be growing in PCS and the like, to over all Even under the CoP.

Mathman · Jan 5, 2007

But even more than princesses, I think American love their athletes. I wouldn't call Serena Williams a princess (maybe a warrior princess), but she recently won the poll for America's favorite athletes (Michelle was sixth and Sasha was tenth, IIRC).

Kimmie may be a tomboy girl-next-door type :love:

, but -- like the girl in the Princess Diaries -- she's princess enough for me. :laugh:

dutchherder · Jan 5, 2007

Oh, Ewan McGregor..... :love:

Sorry.

chuckm · Jan 5, 2007

What SusanBeth seems to be saying is that the US needs another Kwan or Cohen. But there IS no Kwan or Cohen out there---and Kimmie is the next best thing. I'd rather see Kimmie as National Champion than Emily Hughes, with her bull-in-the-china-shop explosive energy but less than desirable scores. At least Kimmie has somewhat of a shot at the World podium. The way Emily has been jumping, a top 10 finish is far from assured.

Handing Emily the title because she has a wider fan base than Kimmie (which I find hard to believe) seems absurd. Let the title go to the lady who can land those jumps when the pressure is on.

SusanBeth · Jan 5, 2007

Just one more point and then I will leave it. I may be cynical, but I don't think it just a matter of dominanting the other American's. The judges are looking at the best investment for the next cycle also. Kimmie has been outskated all season. Her triple axel has been MIA. Her artistry isn't all that. Maybe another young jumping bean will look like a better long term investment? There was a reason Hamill won in '76 and Fratianne won in '80. It was all about getting the US skater on top of the podium at the Olympics. I am sure the judges are looking for their best bet for 2010. If Kimmie doesn't dominant internationally, then she's very vulnerable at home. They will be looking for that better bet in no time.

I just saw ChuckM 's post. It's true that there is no Kwan or Cohen out there right now. It won't stop the judges from looking for one if Kimmie doesn't deliver internationally.

chuckm · Jan 5, 2007

WHAT other young jumping bean? The only one is Rachael Flatt, and she is so young that she won't be eligible for Senior Worlds until the 2008-2009 season---two more years.

Emily Hughes is not a jumping bean, she is a popping, falling, underrotating bean at the moment. And the likelihood is that she is going to go to college next year, so what good will giving her the title do for the USFS? BeBe Liang, Alissa Czisny, Katy Taylor and Christine Zukowski aren't landing their jumps this season. They are all way off form this year, and they don't have the excuse of having been on tour this summer, or doing extensive charity work as Kimmie has. BeBe is 19, Alissa 18, Emily turns 18 during Nationals, and Katy and Christine are the same age as Kimmie. Several of these ladies were loaded with potential and year after year have failed to live up to it.

I do have to ask you what US skater competing at Senior Nationals has performed internationally better than Kimmie this season? You can demean Kimmie all you want, but the fact is she has performed the BEST of all the US Senior ladies this season. She is a conscientious and hard-working athlete who knows what she has to do, and can deliver under pressure.

Kimmie doesn't have to deliver internationally to win the US Championship. She has to deliver at US Nationals 2007. If she has the best skates at Nationals, then she will deserve to be crowned the new US Champion, despite not being 'the next young jumping bean'.

SusanBeth · Jan 5, 2007

I am not at all demeaning Kimmie. I just do not see her as being unbeatable. There's a new young "Star" waiting at every fork in the road. There's been a million of them and there will be a million more. I believe international results matter a great deal to the powers-that-be and Kimmie can't be considered a sure thing at nationals, unless she's considered a sure thing for the world podium.

None of this has been directed a Kimmie personally and I resent that implication. I believe I have been fair to her, while expressing my opinion. Kimmie is a child and I keep that in mind and wish her well.

chuckm · Jan 5, 2007

Kwan was a new young star in 1994, Cohen in 2000, and guess what? Kimmie Meissner was the new young star in 2005. Since then, she has become the World Champion.

New stars do not come along every year, and sorry, but there's no new star on the horizon of the Seniors at Nationals. The returning Seniors, as I have already mentioned, have failed to skate even decently this season. I have seen every single one of the newcomers skate at their Regionals and Sectionals on Ice Network, and I can tell you that the best one by far is Rachael Flatt, and as good as she is, she will be no challenge to Kimmie Meissner.

My guess is you are having withdrawal symptoms since the exit of Sasha Cohen, and are looking for a quick fix. Sorry, but there is no quick fix this year, at least not in ladies.

I don't exactly feel you are being fair to Kimmie when you keep saying that since she hasn't performed well internationally (to your expectations, anyway), she should not become US Champion. Instead, some hitherto unknown "jumping bean ice princess" should be given the crown, even if she doesn't skate better than Kimmie.

Sylvia · Jan 5, 2007

chuckm said:
The returning Seniors, as I have already mentioned, have failed to skate even decently this season.

But we can't totally discount the possibility that a few may skate "decently" at Nationals, right?

chuckm · Jan 5, 2007

Of course they can. My post was in response to a poster who criticized Meissner for poor international performances this season and implied that someone else would be a more deserving US champion. If a silver and a bronze medal is "poor", what does that say about the other US GP competitors?

R.D. · Jan 5, 2007

I still can't believe we're talking about HANDING titles out because of popularity. That's what Marshall's was for. The title is going to go to whoever skates the best at the competition, and as far as competitors go, on paper AND in previous competitions Kimmie has achieved far better results than her AMERICAN counterparts. Therefore, she's the heavy favorite to win this one, and according to a new article on her (see US Nats forum) she's not taking it for granted.

Sounds like people are looking at Kimmie being unable to beat the top international rivals and seeing that as a failure. But that's not what we're talking about here- we're talking about US Nationals, and in that case Kimmie has had the best overall results of the American ladies. That right there is FACT.

The only other American skater I can see making a big improvement is Emily Hughes, and excluding Kimmie she seems to be the most consistent jumper- PLUS she has energy and expression to boot. Alyssa has the talent but not the jumping power nor consistency to seriously challenge for 1st or 2nd.

When it comes to US Nationals I've been 100% in predicting the series of events in ladies. It's no mistake that Nats is often times the most PREDICTABLE competition of the year. This one is no exception, IMO. Let's see, though.

R.D. · Jan 5, 2007

and are looking for a quick fix. Sorry, but there is no quick fix this year, at least not in ladies.

Also, isn't this subjective. Not everyone even got Kwan or Cohen.

Hsuhs · Jan 5, 2007

Can someone pls predict who's going to win in men's - Johnny or Evan?

sk8addict · Jan 5, 2007

Joesitz said:
All the posters seem to be naming the obvious for a win or a decision between 2 top skaters (Weir/Lysacek). Do you not see any upsets?

Can you not foresee the 3 on the podium which is never easy to pick. No 'hopes'! If you pick Alyssa, it has to be because you believe she will be on the podium.

Joe

I'm wishing the judges will Nicholas LaRoche the scores he deserves and he would have a chance if he's still healthy.

dorispulaski · Jan 6, 2007

To answer the questions about the Flatt video, the sign says, "Watch out for flying pucks." A flying puck has done some damage to the p in puck. Mr. Ski took that vid, and it has definitely developed a life of its own.

Yes Flatt's jumps were that small in July...but they were landed in July. They should definitely be bigger and better now. ANd I hope still landed.

And for someone for the Stephanie Rosenthal award of 2007, catch Taylor Firth's SP. Taylor has, to use Uncle Dick's phrase, a lot of pizazz on the ice. She is missing a jump or two, but she was fun to watch, and has a very, very nice family. I'm hoping that Emily will really nail her LP finally. And her SP is my favorite of the year. Kimmie will win again, though, despite her stiff arms. She has the jumps.

3rd place in men's will be competitive. Carriere, Scott Smith and Ryan Bradley should be fighting it out. (quads versus showmanship).

I don't see anyone beating B&A. It just takes way too long to gain credibility in dance; usfsa will be supporting them. They will have t I'm really looking forward to the dance comp, though. Definitely Mat/Zavs versus Davis and White is a close call. And Greg/Pet's programs improve every time they do them. And will B&A stick with their That's Entertainment fd? Will they zip up their lifts? Lots of interesting things. (I DO like D&W though. :cheer:

They have all level4 skills, the danciness that comes from skating together for 9 years, and great, close skating, including really great twizzles. And their Polovetsian Dances choreo is more interesting than Domnina & Shabalin's, IMO.)

And in Jr. Pairs, do keep an eye out for McLaughlin & Brubaker who are a new pair this year that won the Jr. Grand Prix. Unfortunately, they are one of these big, older guy very young girl pairs, but they are still very good.

chuckm · Jan 6, 2007

Flatt's jumps were definitely landed in November, at Sectionals. She also has added a lot of personality to that FS since July. She scored a total of 159.27 points, with 105.72 for the FS.

I saw her live at the Liberty competition and thought her SP was simply wonderful. I was less impressed with the FS at that point, but seeing in at Sectionals on the Ice Network, I was astounded how much Rachael had improved. There is such joy in her skating!

SusanBeth · Jan 6, 2007

chuckm said:
Kwan was a new young star in 1994, Cohen in 2000, and guess what? Kimmie Meissner was the new young star in 2005. Since then, she has become the World Champion.

New stars do not come along every year, and sorry, but there's no new star on the horizon of the Seniors at Nationals. The returning Seniors, as I have already mentioned, have failed to skate even decently this season. I have seen every single one of the newcomers skate at their Regionals and Sectionals on Ice Network, and I can tell you that the best one by far is Rachael Flatt, and as good as she is, she will be no challenge to Kimmie Meissner.

My guess is you are having withdrawal symptoms since the exit of Sasha Cohen, and are looking for a quick fix. Sorry, but there is no quick fix this year, at least not in ladies.

I don't exactly feel you are being fair to Kimmie when you keep saying that since she hasn't performed well internationally (to your expectations, anyway), she should not become US Champion. Instead, some hitherto unknown "jumping bean ice princess" should be given the crown, even if she doesn't skate better than Kimmie.

I have made it very clear that Kimmie is the one to beat and that she is in the strongest position to win. I don't think that I could have made that any clearer. I just don't think she is anywhere near being a certainty. She does have vulnerabilities. I have pointed them out. I have given respectful acknowledgement to her athletic abilities and credited her improving presentation. I don't think I could have been any more fair and still have been truthful.

I never said that Kimmie's best couldn't/shouldn't/wouldn't win. I said that any falls could cost her. She isn't dominate when you look at the big picture. I believe the US judges will be looking at the bigger picture. They always have. This should not be a newsflash to anyone who has followed skating.

I don't know where you are getting that stuff about missing Sasha. :eek:

The only skaters that I have really missed are Janet Lynn, Cranston, Curry, and Yagudin. Sasha's not close.

chuckm · Jan 6, 2007

Rockne Brubaker is muscular, but he isn't all that big and that limits his choice of partners. He and his former partner Mariel Miller had many successes including a bronze at the 2005 JGPF, but Mariel got too big for him to lift safely, so they were forced to split.

Keauna McLaughlin is 13 to Rockne's 20, and this is their last year in Juniors. Fortunately, they won the JGPF this season so they will be guaranteed placement in the GP next year; the GP and "B" Internationals are the only events they can participate in for the 2007-2008 season because of Keauna's age. I'm sure they're both hoping that Keauna doesn't grow too tall in the next couple of years!

US Nationals - What are your thoughts?

Mathman

SusanBeth

SeaniBu

Mathman

dutchherder

chuckm

SusanBeth

chuckm

SusanBeth

chuckm

Sylvia

chuckm

R.D.

R.D.

Hsuhs

sk8addict

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

chuckm

SusanBeth

chuckm

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