Joubert would like to work with Mishin

It is easy to attract top athletes when you are a "reputed" coach. You possess the good chance to filter out the true talents, ie. yargudin (and yes, yargudin is another unique skater ... out of who know how many Mishin had ) and plushenko.
urmanov is not in the same league with those 2.

Medusa said:

He definitely has. Among my favourite programs are several Plushenko performances. I don't know why some, often Northern-American, people always fell the need to reduce him to some idiot who could barely stand, arms flailing, on the ice and only won because the judges loved him.

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I used to wonder about me being weird liking him in his competitive years, after reading lots of reviews here before i signed in, i always thought "if what he does is so easy, why none of the others flail their arms and win"?But if you see plush live you get why he was winning.
then i decided that most people will judge him for his Olympic Lp out of his entire carier,they see flailing, I see artist, but it doesnt matter, he had flaws but I never watched him or Lambiel with a notebook counting their points, Im still waiting for someone to take his place.Lots of great skaters, i m waiting the one who will make the one step and own the ice rather than fearing it. Joubert is the last remained of the old guard.
Mishin took both plush and yag since when they were young, they were not top athletes at the time, he didnt have many skaters cause he seems to dedicate a lot of time for them, not only as a coach. He should take lots of credit for yags success, tarasova didnt teach him his technique.

seniorita said:

Mishin has studied physics of the jumps and invented this special vest for little skaters to start taking right positions for the jumps but he is not magician for grown ups and what can he do in a summer camp,nevertheless Lambiel has said he helped him a lot and had thanked him in public. I also think Mishin can make champions cause somehow he contributes to their character building and mentality strength, which is as important as jumps.

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Has Mischin every brought a Lady skater to the Podium. If so who and when??

Joesitz said:

Has Mischin every brought a Lady skater to the Podium. If so who and when??

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Well, he is training one of the Russian babyballerinas (Elizaveta Tuktamisheva) who came in 2nd at Russian Nationals. He also used to train Ksenia Doronina, when she first became Russian National Champion. He also trains Gerboldt, who won Bronze at Russian Nationals and made Top Ten at Europeans.

But why do you ask? Mishin stated several times that he prefers to train men, so I guess he just doesn't train that many women and therefore there is no big women's champ in his curriculum.

Medusa said:

But why do you ask? Mishin stated several times that he prefers to train men, so I guess he just doesn't train that many women and therefore there is no big women's champ in his curriculum.

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It's more than that. Sokolova's sojourn with Mishin was disastrous, especially for her psyche. Not was he all that successful with Basova. I think he is a very "tough guy" type of coach (even though he actually appears surprisingly gentle in interviews). Psychologically, this works better on guys than it does on the girls. I don't know, though, may be he will have better luck with Tuktamysheva.

skateone said:

It is easy to attract top athletes when you are a "reputed" coach. You possess the good chance to filter out the true talents, ie. yargudin (and yes, yargudin is another unique skater ... out of who know how many Mishin had ) and plushenko.
urmanov is not in the same league with those 2.

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True, he is not, but it is exactly Urmanov's success that proves how good a coach Mishin is. Urmanov was a type of skater who had to work very hard on everything, things didn't just come to him the way they did to Yagudin and Plushenko. It was Mishin who made him into that OGM winner. BTW, another great student of Mishin's was Ovchinnikov, one of the first elite USSR singles male skaters.

Ptichka said:

another great student of Mishin's was Ovchinnikov, one of the first elite USSR singles male skaters.

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Sorry, but I`m afraid you`re not quite right. Ovchinnikov was one of the students of I. Moscvin`, the famous Russian coach. And it was I.Moskvin, not Mishin, who developed Ovchinnikov into a great skator. And I find weird seniorita`s statement that Mishin `should take lots of credit for yags success, tarasova didnt teach him his technique`.Have you ever tried to compare Yag`s jumps, footwork,spins, his basic skating when he was trained by Mishin (let`s take 1998 Worlds, for instance) with those ones he was showing having T.Tarasova as a coach (2002 Olys)?

Medusa said:

He definitely has. Among my favourite programs are several Plushenko performances. I don't know why some, often Northern-American, people always fell the need to reduce him to some idiot who could barely stand, arms flailing, on the ice and only won because the judges loved him.

And I bet if Joubert would have happened to be Canadian / US-American, people would rave about his masculinity, about his aggressive style, about his ambitious nature, about his modern, crowd-pleasing choreography, his powerful massive jumps.

But he happens to be French and therefore the only thing you read is "bad spins" (I don't think they are bad anymore, they are good average this season), "zero choreography" (strange, where do all those standing ovations for him come from then? Worlds 2008, Skate Canada 2007, CoR 2008... dumb audiences, they know nothing about figure skating!), "flailing arms" (yeah, like every second male skater around these days), "arrogant jerk" (it's called honesty in other areas of the world). It's simply irritating.

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I think, perhaps you are reducing it all to simply (and incorrectly) down to nationality. I made the sarcastic comment about Pluschenko (and i'm not not canandian or american) - and it was sarcastic but truthful, his Olympic programs were are disgrace choreographically. I been through it over and over as to why I think so and think it was a joke that he received (i think) a 9 from at least one judge in the PCS (wonder which judge taht might have been? ).

I do believe that there was a great difference between seeing him Live and seeing him on television, and i gather the fact I haven't watched him live is something which hinders a true appreciation of his skating. What you can see on TV though is a that some of his basic skating turns are very scrapey, often off balance and often stepped/fallen out of therefore my conclusion is that the use of those ridiculously frenetic step sequences (including the use of them to slower paced music like his Olympic SP circular step sequence) are a cover up for his lack of skills at basic turns.

Pluschenko is undoubtedly the best jumper there has ever been in the skating world. I doubt that we will see someone with his jumping ability in a very long time (if ever again?). He was consistent in an truly amazing way. I do not question any title he has ever won (there may be one but i can't remember which!). But the way his "second mark" was overinflated beyond anythig that he ever did on the ice was just ridiculous.

I don't think there's many comparisons between him and Joubert - the key to Pluschenko's success, namely competitive drive and consistency are things that barely any other skater has come close to, Joubert certainly hasn't come close to them.

Ant

elanna said:

Have you ever tried to compare Yag`s jumps, footwork,spins, his basic skating when he was trained by Mishin (let`s take 1998 Worlds, for instance) with those ones he was showing having T.Tarasova as a coach (2002 Olys)?

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Well the jumps, spins and basic skating of Yags in 1998 and 2002 are pretty much exactly the same. The step sequences (except the morozov toe pick parts) were the same basic turns and edges. The only thing that changed (and this was a massive fundamental change) was the way the whole thing was packaged - the use of his whole body, his expression of the music, his facial expressions, the joy to his skating. Every single aspect of the way he projected his performances changed under Tarasova, but his technique in the elements and his basic skating (ankles down) was all of Mishin's teaching.

Ant

Medusa said:

He definitely has. Among my favourite programs are several Plushenko performances. I don't know why some, often Northern-American, people always fell the need to reduce him to some idiot who could barely stand, arms flailing, on the ice and only won because the judges loved him.

And I bet if Joubert would have happened to be Canadian / US-American, people would rave about his masculinity, about his aggressive style, about his ambitious nature, about his modern, crowd-pleasing choreography, his powerful massive jumps.

But he happens to be French and therefore the only thing you read is "bad spins" (I don't think they are bad anymore, they are good average this season), "zero choreography" (strange, where do all those standing ovations for him come from then? Worlds 2008, Skate Canada 2007, CoR 2008... dumb audiences, they know nothing about figure skating!), "flailing arms" (yeah, like every second male skater around these days), "arrogant jerk" (it's called honesty in other areas of the world). It's simply irritating.

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Thank you Medusa! Glad to know I'm not the only one who feels that way!!!

Coming back to the article, I wouldn't be against Brian's working with Mishin. He's definitly had some trouble with his quads recently (they're not as consistent as before) and maybe working with such a technicist would be great for him.
He also needs a boost in confidence, but his new program seems to have given him a bit more.

As for choreography, the big question is, who will he work with for the Olympic season. Here are a few guesses:

Kurt
Firstly, it seems unlikely. Secondly, I'm not sure it would be the best option anyway. Kurt did some great work with Brian, but I'm worried he'd do something like Brian's Metallica program again. Saying that if he could do something like the All For You program, then it would be great!

Morozov
He did some fantastic programs for Brian, Time, The Untouchables, James Bond and Matrix. But he also did the Lord of the Dance program which was far from Brian's best LP. I'm not sure if Morozov could do anymore for Brian, although it's a shame because he's a great choreographer. Plus Brian needs someone who can spend a lot of time with him, and Nikolai has just way to many students. Moreover, I'm not sure he'd accept to work with Brian as he's working with Oda.

Ian Jenkins
Brian's new program is fantastic considering how long it took to create it. However, I'm not sure, as we don't know him, that he could do anything else. It would be extremely risky during an Olympic season to work with someone with so little experience. Saying that, it could turn out to be the perfect match.

Evgeny Platov/Tatiana Tarasova
The reason why I put them together is that they have the same approach to choreography. I really don't thinhk Brian should work with either of them. They've created some gorgeouse things for him, but each time he doesn't feel comfortable with the programs, even though they really suite him. Such a shame!

Muriel Zazoui
She does fantastic things, but I fear he programs will have the same effect on him as Tatiana Tarasova's.

Any other suggestions?

Medusa said:

Well, he is training one of the Russian babyballerinas (Elizaveta Tuktamisheva) who came in 2nd at Russian Nationals. He also used to train Ksenia Doronina, when she first became Russian National Champion. He also trains Gerboldt, who won Bronze at Russian Nationals and made Top Ten at Europeans.

But why do you ask? Mishin stated several times that he prefers to train men, so I guess he just doesn't train that many women and therefore there is no big women's champ in his curriculum.

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I ask because I do not follow Mishin's every move. Why should I? I'm a choreographer lover not a jump lover. Plushenko's choreo was triple jump, pause, and mug for audience acknowledgement and move on to the next jump. Hardly my type of choreography. I've never been fond of Urmanov and I have to admit that Yagudin's 2002 Oly skate was his best under the direction of Tarassova. There was nothing before that.

I believe he did take on Volchkova for a spell, and afterwards she retired.

Great jumber was Timothy Goebel (or Honda) but he didnt became a Plushenko, so the latter must have had something else also. It is not all his programs jump-stop-jump, like Tribute to Nijinski, St Peters300 and he has done slow pace footwork (Moonlight Sonata, Adagio), anyway I remember he has stepped out of sequence in Godfather but it is not like it happened all the time. I didnt say he was the best at everything but his he had a long carrier and the effect on audience was incredible.
Tosca by British Eurosport was commented "dazzling program" during the footwork you mentioned..sometimes it is how you recieve something so ..no objections..For his Lp i cant say disagree much, but the marks is not skater's problem.
Anyway Mishin is a skating coach, not o choreographer, has Joubert used dickson or wilson, ot they are too lyrical for him?

NatachaHatawa said:

As for choreography, the big question is, who will he work with for the Olympic season.

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I think you made some good points regarding the pros and cons of the more obvious options. The thing with Brian is that he's a wonderful performer, very athletic & fast on the ice, and has a good connection with the audience. But he is not a dancer or as musical as some of the other guys. This is a problem when putting together a program because he needs choreography that will play to his strengths, and not every big name choreographer can provide that. There is no point in trying to remake him into Jeremy Abbott or Patrick Chan (and vice-versa, of course).

Barring a return to Browning, I think Brian should stay in France for choreo: Morozov has too many people and it'll look too cookie-cutter; Platov wasn't a good fit; Tarasova did choreography for another relatively athletic guy this year (Evan) and we saw how well that went. Wilson, Nichol - um, no. Maybe Brian should make peace with Jeffrey Buttle and work with him ?

Ian Jenkins didn't have much time to prepare the new LP - I'd rather not judge his abilities until it's better developed; it looked like Brian didn't feel quite comfortable with it yet in Helsinki. Muriel Zazoui - that's an interesting idea, like you I'm not sure it would work, but maybe for some consulting? Are there any French skaters who have retired and are doing choreo?

I don't know Brian Joubert personally but from what I have read about him, it seems to me that even more than good choreography, what Brian needs is a good sports psychologist and a hassle-free training environment. I really hope he will have everything in place for the Olympic season.

Buttercup said:

Are there any French skaters who have retired and are doing choreo?

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I think that Stannick Jeannette love: I miss him so much) is doing some choreos.

IMO Brian has the right coach: JCS. But I think he should also collaborate with Philippe Pélissier who will be honest with him and dump Annick Dumont.
The choreagrapher is the though part...Tom Dickson maybe.

Buttercup said:

The thing with Brian is that he's a wonderful performer, very athletic & fast on the ice, and has a good connection with the audience. But he is not a dancer or as musical as some of the other guys. This is a problem when putting together a program because he needs choreography that will play to his strengths, and not every big name choreographer can provide that. There is no point in trying to remake him into Jeremy Abbott or Patrick Chan (and vice-versa, of course).

Maybe Brian should make peace with Jeffrey Buttle and work with him ?

I don't know Brian Joubert personally but from what I have read about him, it seems to me that even more than good choreography, what Brian needs is a good sports psychologist and a hassle-free training environment. I really hope he will have everything in place for the Olympic season.

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I agree with the first part. What Brian really needs is music he can just go wild with (like Rise)

I'm not sure Jeff could create the type of program Brian needs!!

As for the sports psychologist, I'm not really sure. He has such a strong character, I'm not sure it would work. I think it's better for him to learn on his own (like he has done). Concerning the hassle-free training environment, he's got it, which is one of the reasons he remains in Poitiers. If anything, he should listen more to what people tell him! He's so stuborn!
The problem that Brian has is that his worst adversary is himself.

Buttercup said:

I think you made some good points regarding the pros and cons of the more obvious options. The thing with Brian is that he's a wonderful performer, very athletic & fast on the ice, and has a good connection with the audience. But he is not a dancer or as musical as some of the other guys. This is a problem when putting together a program because he needs choreography that will play to his strengths, and not every big name choreographer can provide that. There is no point in trying to remake him into Jeremy Abbott or Patrick Chan (and vice-versa, of course).

Barring a return to Browning, I think Brian should stay in France for choreo: Morozov has too many people and it'll look too cookie-cutter; Platov wasn't a good fit; Tarasova did choreography for another relatively athletic guy this year (Evan) and we saw how well that went. Wilson, Nichol - um, no. Maybe Brian should make peace with Jeffrey Buttle and work with him ?

Ian Jenkins didn't have much time to prepare the new LP - I'd rather not judge his abilities until it's better developed; it looked like Brian didn't feel quite comfortable with it yet in Helsinki. Muriel Zazoui - that's an interesting idea, like you I'm not sure it would work, but maybe for some consulting? Are there any French skaters who have retired and are doing choreo?

I don't know Brian Joubert personally but from what I have read about him, it seems to me that even more than good choreography, what Brian needs is a good sports psychologist and a hassle-free training environment. I really hope he will have everything in place for the Olympic season.

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^^^
Very well written post on Joubert's choreography which apparently needs someone special for him to work with.

Brian does have style albeit limited to metronome skating, and he performs it well. 007 and Matrix seems to be his speed. But I did see him in Quebec live, and it was kind of startling to see him use body language and graceful arm movements. I also saw on youtube some of his show skating where he moves quite well with more rhythmic music. I suspect, as I am not sure, that Kurt's type of musical skating may hinder his Tech abilities. Since it's quite close to Worlds time, I think it would be best for him to use the music and choreo which makes him more combfortable in front of judges. He has now, better spins and footork than he had before. I still consider him the frontrunner for the Men's championship.

rosee said:

I think that Stannick Jeannette love: I miss him so much) is doing some choreos.

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Yes. He did choreo for Miriam Ziegler - Austrian National Champion 2009.

You can see her LP here:
http://staatsmeisterschaften.ekl-au...on=com_content&view=article&id=131&Itemid=198

elanna said:

Sorry, but I`m afraid you`re not quite right. Ovchinnikov was one of the students of I. Moscvin`, the famous Russian coach. And it was I.Moskvin, not Mishin, who developed Ovchinnikov into a great skator.

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Actually, no, Mishin was the one who coached Ovchinnikov. However, due to some ugly intrigue, Mishin was deemed "untrustworthy" and therefore could never accompany his students to competitions abroad. That's why Moksvin, Mishin's own coach, would look after Mishin's students.

rosee said:

I think that Stannick Jeannette love: I miss him so much) is doing some choreos.

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Stanick Jeannette... I miss him too. I don't know if that would work for Brian, though - they're so different. But Stanick did some really creative stuff as a skater, maybe he could come up with something fun. I do wonder how well he'd be able to deal with CoP.

NatachaHatawa: With all the rumored coaching changes, I can't imagine things are stress-free in Poitiers these days. To me JCS seems a good choice for Brian, I can't imagine him in a Morozov situation with a bunch of other skaters who all need attention from their coach.

Buttercup said:

NatachaHatawa: With all the rumored coaching changes, I can't imagine things are stress-free in Poitiers these days. To me JCS seems a good choice for Brian, I can't imagine him in a Morozov situation with a bunch of other skaters who all need attention from their coach.

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I just don't think he's stressed out because of his training conditions, as you said JCS seems to be doing great work with Brian. If Brian is stressed, I suspect it is self-inflicted. The one person that is really capable of stressing Brian out is Brian himself. Maybe he needs a change of scenary, but only a short one.