2024 Worlds: Pairs' thoughts and comments

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I love the Australian pair! They had my favorite free skate next to Deanna/Max.

I also really don't like the 2A and 1A combos. They are so messy except for maybe the Hungarians and H/V.

I find those combos messy too… however they are an actual test of unison. So many pairs do combos that lack have sloppy double toes thrown onto it and usually they are off because one Skater has a different timing or height.

+Axel+Axel combos are a way of showcasing control (as you have to maintain your landing edge from the jump before to step up into the Axel especially if it’s a 2A). In a +2A+2A sequence especially it is obvious when a team is off.

While a 3-3 combo is more difficult of course at least this 2A series introduces some more potential difficulty.

I really hope the Hungarian pair pushes their artistry even more and get a better choreographer because they are very clean and solid. I could picture them pushing the technical envelope to challenge for an Olympic medal come 2026. If they weren’t repping Hungary their scores would be even higher. I predict a GP gold for them next season even.

Speaking of difficulty - I love S/D’s Forward outside death spiral. I love that the veteran skaters like Shen and Deanna choose the hardest death spiral. And that is not an easy position! I also liked the ingenuity of when they did the forward pivot death spiral and would love to see it brought back… but makes sense to avoid it if every other tech panel drops their level.

 

[Olly96]

I don't usually follow senior pairs that closely but this year's event was really exciting! It was so amazing and fun to watch everyone doing so well in the SP!

Congratulations to the medalists! Deanna and Maxime brought their best game and made history in front of their home crowd. What an achievement! Riku and Ryuichi delivered when it mattered most despite a challenging season. I have followed them since the 2021 WTT and can't help but feel something special whenever these two skate! Minerva and Nikita showed why they are this year's GPF champions. Very exciting new team!

The Australians stood out to me with their sharp and crisp skating and good unison. They absolutely lived up to their dramatic music, especially in the short. I remember them from their junior years and they were quite good already, so I hope their development continues well.

I was also very touched by Deanna & Max and Minerva & Nikita joining Riku & Ryuichi for their medal ceremony. That's true sportsmanship right there!

 

[4everchan]

I love the Australian pair! They had my favorite free skate next to Deanna/Max.

I also really don't like the 2A and 1A combos. They are so messy except for maybe the Hungarians and H/V.

All the Australian needs apart from some mileage in the senior ranks is a good twist. Their twist is not good and will set them back in the SP far enough for them to be contenders until it gets better. It's actually the element where Max and Deanna shine the most compared to the other teams I would think.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

The US pairs program needs some sort of overhaul.

I just gave the protocols a hard look.

Three US pairs. 1 jump and 1 throw in the SP. 2 jump passes and 2 throws in the LP.

Grand total of these 18 elements with positive GOE: 3

Ellie and Danny: SP jumps
Emily and Spencer: SP jumps
Valentina and Max: LP throw

Overall success rate: 17%. And that's not defining success as "great element!" It's defining success as "not negative." I didn't count the outright falls, but you all saw the same competition as I did.

I know that jumps and throws aren't all there is to pair skating, but they're important. And with the rest of the world is managing them, we end up with all three of our best teams out of the Top 10. And deservedly so.

So, I'm standing by for comments about Emily and Spencer's injury issues (and I do cut them some slack) and Danny's partnering skills (and I freely acknowledge them), and Val and Max's connection (which I see, too).

But the math speaks for itself. Unless our pairs find a way with high impact elements, we're going to continue to languish in the lower-middle pack, fingers crossed to keep two spots. Speaking of which... how would this event have suffered if only two US pairs were there? Or even just one?

There's always this unfair negativity directed against U.S. pairs. Why? What were you expecting? It's not a surprise that U.S. pairs lost a third spot this year. It was uncertain how all three teams would fare, for reasons that are obvious. In addition, as we all know, there were a lot of retirements and splits among U.S. pairs teams after the 2022 Olympics. The U.S. is fortunate that Alexa and Brandon came back after winning 2022 Worlds to help the U.S. discipline during a transitional period. Obviously, it is A&B's silver medal last year, along with Emily & Spencer placing 5th that gave the U.S. three spots in pairs this season. It is what it is that the U.S. discipline was not in a good position to take advantage of and capitalize on those three spots. Still, I don't see any need to be in constant doom and gloom mode about U.S. pairs. Clearly, pairs is a difficult discipline for all teams who compete to perfectly master!

There is no scenario in which the U.S. wasn't going to have 3 spots for 2024, once A&B returned to the battlefield the prior season. Thus, it doesn't make sense to pose a negative 'What if?' about this season for U.S. pairs having only two spots. Three spots were a given. If you want to talk about 'What if?' I suggest focusing on next season when the U.S. will actually have two spots in pairs. But there will be a lot of teams in the mix at U.S. Nationals vying for the two spots, so, it should be interesting. The GP will also be interesting in 2024-25.

Again, as we all know, there are promising new teams in the U.S. with prior substantive pairs experience who could not go to Worlds this year because of releases needed from other countries. So, with releases achieved by next season, we will see how good these teams can be. Spencer & Emily may also be able to get back to top form over the summer. Ellie seems to have figured out the sbs jumps. So if she can figure out the throw landings, she and Danny can become more competitive. They have a synchronous movement quality and an engaging style that some international teams who placed ahead of them technically in the sp, lack. Meanwhile, TSL mentioned a possible split rumor in regard to Liu/Nagy but so far, there hasn't been any confirmation. TSLDave referenced in his Worlds review that Balasz was asked by U.S. figsk to try out with Audrey Shin.

There are a lot of hungry teams in pairs internationally, so the field was very competitive this season, and it will continue to be in the lead-up to the Olympics. This was an exciting pairs competition at Worlds, especially in the sp! I'm so happy for Deanna & Max making history in winning their first World championship, and I'm also glad for Hase/ Volodin winning bronze.

Boston Worlds is sure to be a ton of fun in all disciplines.

 

[Rebecca Moose]

There's always this unfair negativity directed against U.S. pairs. Why? What were you expecting?

more than what all three pairs team delivered here? I think it's fantastic to be encouraging and supportive, but there's no excuse for USA pairs to be so ridiculously weak right now....and one can certainly argue kam/oshea have been one of the most overscored pairs teams all year.

trying to manifest Shin/Nagy! I love Liu, but the jumps are hopeless.

but kudos to the top 5 pairs here -- fantastic level, very enjoyable event.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

but there's no excuse for USA pairs to be so ridiculously weak right now..

Wow! I truly must disagree with you. It is what it is. Like Chelsea said, "There's a human journey" behind the skaters you see on the ice. You can criticize the sport's handlers, the apparatus, and the competitive structure, but please do not cast aspersions upon the skaters! They all work very hard, and this is a 'ridiculously' difficult sport. Why so dismissive?! Not so long ago, Alexa & Brandon were World pairs champions and World silver medalists! Did you appreciate them?

There have been a number of retirements and splits among U.S. pairs moving into a new four-year cycle. Do you think this sport is easy?! Pairs is the hardest discipline. Why not put your attention on the other teams who competed at Worlds and realize the ups-and-downs they all went through during the season. In fact, look at all the skaters who competed at Worlds and recognize just how hard it is to even show up on the ice once you win the chance to even be there. And look at all those who were brutally cut. Stop with calling any figure skater 'weak' please.

Since this is a thread about the 2024 World pairs event, I will leave my comments there. If you want to discuss further, please go to U.S. pairs thread. Thank you.

 

[4everchan]

more than what all three pairs team delivered here? I think it's fantastic to be encouraging and supportive, but there's no excuse for USA pairs to be so ridiculously weak right now....and one can certainly argue kam/oshea have been one of the most overscored pairs teams all year.

trying to manifest Shin/Nagy! I love Liu, but the jumps are hopeless.

but kudos to the top 5 pairs here -- fantastic level, very enjoyable event.

Liu and Nagy have already split

 

[Rebecca Moose]

Wow! I truly must disagree with you. It is what it is. Like Chelsea said, "There's a human journey" behind the skaters you see on the ice. You can criticize the sport's handlers, the apparatus, and the competitive structure, but please do not cast aspersions upon the skaters! They all work very hard, and this is a 'ridiculously' difficult sport.

Since this is a thread about the 2024 World pairs event, I will leave my comments there. If you want to discuss further, please go to U.S. pairs thread. Thank you.

I think we can still be critical of how the USFS develops pairs. Germany has two top 5 pairs and a fraction of the resources USFS has at their disposal.

I don't think I was rude about the skaters. At the end of the day this is an elite sport and it's fair to respectfully criticize USFS and the pairs program.

 

[TontoK]

Regarding the US Pairs performances here. Let's set placement aside because that's comparative to other teams.

Instead, let's focus on the statistic I brought up earlier, which is entirely within the pairs' control.

3 out of 18 on jump elements and throws. As I said before, each of the three US pair teams had an opportunity for 3 jumping passes and 3 throws over the course of the entire event. Each of them successfully executed exactly 1 element. That's not unfair negativity - it's a fact.

Of course, I hope for better things next year. As I have pretty much for many many years.

But I'm not sure things will get better unless some sort of fundamental change is made. What that change might be, I don't know. Perhaps we look at what hasn't been working for 50 years, give or take an exception or two, and try NOT doing that.

 

[Blades of Passion]

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season2021/wc2021/FSKXPAIRS-------------FNL-000100--_JudgesDetailsperSkater.pdf

S/D definitely would have placed top 5 there, whether at home or not.

2019 was the last "normal" Worlds, before covid and Russian war. I don't think S/D's performance deserves to place top 5 there and the scores they are currently getting would absolutely drop quite a bit in that kind of field. 9's in PCS for this team is not real.

 

[Mathman]

Still, it's a competition. You can compete only against the athletes that are present, not against ghosts from the past or against skaters who, for whatever reason, are absent. .

 

[4everchan]

How many Russians competed at 2024 worlds in Pairs ? 9 representing Germany, Hungary, Georgia, The Netherlands, Australia, Poland and the Philippines, some of which still train and live in Russia. Russian expertise and tradition was widely represented.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I already said it's not about Russia. The field as a whole is much worse than it was in the past. Even if we also account for China's program being on a big downswing right now and compare to 2019, that still leaves James/Cipres, who were absolutely a stronger team than S/D, and Moore-Towers/Mariano at 2019 4CC who would also deserve to beat anything I've seen from S/D. It's the overall diminished level of pairs skating that's concerning. Maybe it's just a brief rut.

 

[4everchan]

Short post about Maxime. A lot of praise of course for Deanna's epic journey from retiring after skating singles at the Junior level and coming back so many years later, picking up a new discipline and then... winning a world title. However, let's not forget how difficult it's been for Max as well. I have been following him for a long time and his journey is a wonderful example in perseverance. He has had several partners (fun facts, Elladj's sister was one of them)... Before Deanna, only one of these was sort of successful with Valérie Grenier. They won Canadian juniors but no medals on the senior circuit nor at Nationals. His next partner was short lived (a couple seasons) and not any better. Teaming up with Deanna had its complications as well. 1) the USA didn't give her a quick release so they couldn't skate internationally for a couple years... and of course, Covid hit as well... no training as Quebec was locked down forever... etc.... It is only in 2021-22 season that he won his first ever medal at Canadian Nationals. Still, they hadn't competed at any GP events yet. You all know the history of the last two seasons I will spare you with that... but I would also add that earlier this year, Max had his issues with some of the SBS jumps. He wasn't stable. I saw him fall badly during the warm up of the LP. He fell on his side by the boards. Yet, during Worlds, he didn't miss a single jump... He didn't step out... he didn't put a foot wrong. He really stepped up his game too. They won this as a team as of course, a team is only as good as its weakest link. So kudos to Max as well for making sure he would be there for Deanna (and vice versa).

So many years as a figure skater, trying to find a pertner... having to learn new ways to do things together (remember that silly entrance to their 3toes from a couple years ago) ... always chasing the difficulties : for instance their death spirals but also their lifts that are far from being cookie cutter lifts. I am very proud of my homeboy

So, thank you Maxime, for your dedication, courage and perseverance !

 

[Jumping_Bean]

James/Cipres

Cipres is a literal predator, who is only still a free man because he fled the country. If his coaches hadn't conspired with him to intimidate the victim, he very, very likely wouldn't even have been able to compete at Worlds in 2019.

Moore-Towers/Mariano at 2019 4CC

I liked MTM a lot, but they had some technical issues that would be ripped into today (especially that twist, sheesh).

The field as a whole is much worse than it was in the past.

Is it really though?
Removing pairs representing China and Russia, at 2019 Worlds the success rate on the twist (triple, non-negative GOE) was 67.9%, on sbs jumps (triples with non-negative GOE, both solo and in combination) 19% and on the throws (triple, non-negative GOE) 61.9%.
At Worlds this season (removing the Chinese pair, and those who didn't qualify for the Free, for comparability), the success rate on the twist was 81.6%, on the sbs jumps 43.9% and on the throws 66.7%.
There were indeed more falls this season, but also a significant uptick in sbs triples, which seems to explain some of those additional falls.

Some things have improved, some have not, but the "rest" of the field is not "much worse" than it used to be.

 

[Anna K.]

Cipres is a literal predator, who is only still a free man because he fled the country. If his coaches hadn't conspired with him to intimidate the victim, he very, very likely wouldn't even have been able to compete at Worlds in 2019.


I liked MTM a lot, but they had some technical issues that would be ripped into today (especially that twist, sheesh).


Is it really though?
Removing pairs representing China and Russia, at 2019 Worlds the success rate on the twist (triple, non-negative GOE) was 67.9%, on sbs jumps (triples with non-negative GOE, both solo and in combination) 19% and on the throws (triple, non-negative GOE) 61.9%.
At Worlds this season (removing the Chinese pair, and those who didn't qualify for the Free, for comparability), the success rate on the twist was 81.6%, on the sbs jumps 43.9% and on the throws 66.7%.
There were indeed more falls this season, but also a significant uptick in sbs triples, which seems to explain some of those additional falls.

Some things have improved, some have not, but the "rest" of the field is not "much worse" than it used to be.

Plus, this is only the second year of the Olympic cycle. So, there is still time for things to improve, especially for teams who are comparatively fresh and new.

 

[4everchan]

I liked MTM a lot, but they had some technical issues that would be ripped into today (especially that twist, sheesh).

I had the horror of witnessing MTM 2.0 crash on a twist... and it's something I never want to see again in my life .. thank you.

Max and Deanna have the best twist that was presented at worlds (didn't look if anyone else outscored them) from the angle I got to see them at the rink ! It's huge and I tick all the bullets. There is a fabulous snap in it too. You are right : without a good twist in the SP, it's pretty much game over... and that's what happens to Lia and Trennt and the Australians.... Until they improve their twist...

Regarding lifts... Michael was often wobbly on his lifts too... and they were quite bland. Deanna and Max have their own style of lifts, looking for ways that will get them their levels but not necessarily with the "common and easy" bullet points.... there is absolutely never an ugly position or an awkward dismount in their lifts.

The only area we could talk about : SBS jumps... are they as good as MTM 2.0 ? Perhaps not, but I feel it's a question of confidence. I think it's only this year that they fixed the 3t entrance. I recall seeing it at CQÉ and I was like "finally !!!" and of course, playing with the +2a is new for everyone and perhaps harder for some teams than others. I remember MTM2.0 going for 2a EU 3s with VERY LITTLE success.

So yeah. I liked them as well, but It's not clear to me that SD-D are weaker.

Is it really though?
Removing pairs representing China and Russia, at 2019 Worlds the success rate on the twist (triple, non-negative GOE) was 67.9%, on sbs jumps (triples with non-negative GOE, both solo and in combination) 19% and on the throws (triple, non-negative GOE) 61.9%.
At Worlds this season (removing the Chinese pair, and those who didn't qualify for the Free, for comparability), the success rate on the twist was 81.6%, on the sbs jumps 43.9% and on the throws 66.7%.
There were indeed more falls this season, but also a significant uptick in sbs triples, which seems to explain some of those additional falls.

Some things have improved, some have not, but the "rest" of the field is not "much worse" than it used to be.

Thank you for this analysis !

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

Max and Deanna have the best twist that was presented at worlds (didn't look if anyone else outscored them) from the angle I got to see them at the rink !

They had the best twists according to the judges too! As per Skating Scores, the twist rankings for Worlds were...

1. SD/D - FS twist (L4)
2. SD/D - SP twist (L4)
3. M/B - FS (L4)
4. M/B - SP (L4)
5. H/V - FS (L3)

 

[4everchan]

They had the best twists according to the judges too! As per Skating Scores, the twist rankings for Worlds were...

1. SD/D - FS twist (L4)
2. SD/D - SP twist (L4)
3. M/B - FS (L4)
4. M/B - SP (L4)
5. H/V - FS (L3)

I should trust myself more

 

[skylark]

Short post about Maxime. ,,,,
Teaming up with Deanna had its complications as well. 1) the USA didn't give her a quick release so they couldn't skate internationally for a couple years...

Deanna said in a recent interview that a 2-year delay in USFS' release was what she expected, because it was USFS policy. Before officially teaming with Max, she looked into every option, and decided those two years were worth it. And she was so right! I've been watching Deanna and Max from the beginning, and I believe those two years under the radar were very important and very beneficial to their development and to their success this year.

Max had his issues with some of the SBS jumps. He wasn't stable. I saw him fall badly during the warm up of the LP. He fell on his side by the boards....

So, thank you Maxime, for your dedication, courage and perseverance !

Thank you for giving Maxime some well-deserved attention and appreciation! I've been annoyed by how many of the kindest and most experienced commentators hardly even mentioned Max, so taken were they with Deanna's story. A pairs team takes two.