Ladies LP - 2014 European Championships

wallylutz said:

Freezing this quote for posterior use. <<When Ziggy disagrees with a certain outcome, then the judging is atrocious and it's all due to politics. Otherwise, it's fair.>>

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You seriously think that Leonova getting PCS in the 8s can be justified?

She was just stroking into the jumps (almost the whole length of the rink into a lot of them). She has fantastic performance skills and a lot of her programs played that out really well in the past but we didn't even get to see that this time because the program was so empty and didn't give her an opportunity to show off her expressive side.

Are Leonova's basics better than Meite's? Obviously. But they aren't great either. And Leonova's program was just awful. She almost certainly deserved higher PCS but I don't think that she deserved much higher PCS.

elif said:

This is 4th highest total score ever. Top three were Yu-Na Kim.

http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/o100lto.htm

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Yeah, I meant she's now the second highest scoring skater. Kim holds more records.

Bartek said:

No, i think that Mao had gotten it before either this season or last.

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In what competition?


I don't remember to see Mao gatting +3 from all judges for a level 4 step sequence.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Yeah, that was pretty awful. 58 points of PCS buried Meite. Although she did have the fall and shaky landings. And Leonova had a stronger SP. Leonova still deserves 5th, but it shouldn't be by 5 points.

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Meite got more than she deserves, IMO. Too mannish for my taste. Leonova at least skates in a feminine manner, even when she is punching her jumps. The French #2, Laurine Lecavelier, is truly feminine while still possessing huge triple jumps & lovely complex spins; she should overtake Meite next season.

Bartek said:

Even though I have never been a fan of Carolina's I think that with this bolero program, sophisticated choreography, long lines, elegnt arm movements and speed she still blew the Russian girls out of the water PCS-wise, mistakes on the jumps notwithstanding. And thank God this is what happened but in my opinion Adelina and Julia were still overmarked on the PCS - the gap between them and Kostner should've been bigger. I loved Carolina's simles when she was doing the choreography and the step sequence was astounding. I must also admit that for the first time I was moved by Julia's program and I could feel that she understands it and projects those emotions. When it comes to Adelina, I am becoming a fan of hers, especially having seen another brilliant short but the long was a bit disappointing for me and I don't think she deserved such high PCS marks. She was skating from one element to another, whereas Julia really felt it this night.

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I agree with everything there (except that I've long enjoyed Caro's skating and never want her to make mistakes). She's the only skater to rival Yuna in terms of speed and ice coverage and it makes a big difference in terms of presentation. I though Julia was amazing and Adelina was lovely but they are just not up there with Caro's presentation and definitely not with SS. Her step sequence blew the other two out of the water and she made it look so easy and effortless!
I'm glad she long has stopped looking like a deer in headlights and I LOVE it that she enjoys her performances despite mistakes. And her fans seem to love her no matter what, it's such fun. She was a bit of an acquired taste for me but now I just think she is a majestic skater and I'm going to really miss her when she retires from competition.

Adelina - love her short program. Her long was lovely but she looked like she was working and didn't draw you in until the end, sort of. Does anyone else think that her gaze turns downward too much? I feel like she really almost has it all but needs the right programs _ or something _ to draw people in. She tries but doesn't skate for the audience like Caro does. Is it just experience? or maybe just a program she "gets" more?

TryMeLater said:

I found Julia to be quite rude with her answers...

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I didn't find her to be rude - she was blunt (but that depends on the person), I think it's gotta be difficult to have to analyze your program to a bunch of reporters. What I found interesting was her comment on her emotions; (paraphrasing) but she said she used to think emotions would hurt her technique but she finds emotions help her perform better.

sky_fly20 said:

Press Conference of Winners: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctxQ6-P9o8c&feature=player_embedded

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Thanks for the link!
When asked about her expectations for Sochi, Carolina said:
"Life usually surprises you most when you least expect it, so no expectations"
That got her a big applause by the entire room.
Classy lady. :agree:

I watched the ladies' FS on the German stream, and when the competition and medal ceremony were over, the stream stayed on and Carolina was being interviewed by an Italian lady. I don't speak Italian, but from what I got (with my French and Spanish), I thought she was saying how it had been a new experience to have other skaters "try to intimidate her" during warm-up. I was just letting the stream run and didn't pay close attention at first (they kept on having some sound issues and starting over and over again!). Did anyone else see this, who actually understands Italian? Can anyone confirm this, or clear up any misunderstanding?

I don't understand this position that Julia 'doesn't look her age...she looks 10'. Go to any high school and take a look at the 15 years old. At that age, I stood 4'10 and I weighed about 97 lbs. I had a friend who was about my height or perhaps an inch or two taller but she looked voluptous. She had large breasts. Other friends were much taller, probably from 5'3 to 5'7 and they were all in different stages of development, as I was. I remember former gymnasts Kim Zmeskal, Shannon Miller, Tatiana Gutsu, and Dominique Dawes from the 1992 Summer Olympics. All were in their mid-teens but physically had not matured very much just yet. Julia looks just fine for her age and frankly she has breasts - I haven't seen too many 10 year olds that do although, again every one matures at different times. Some 10 year olds look physically 15 or 16.

Julia most certainly does not skate like the 10 year olds that I've seen at lower levels, nor even the 13 - 15 years olds that I've seen in the junior ranks - which some posts here seem to imply. Julia's skating is much more mature and refined than that. She's taken enormous strides even from last year. Her program is age appropriate. She has said she is trying to portray the children of that film and the Holocaust - all ages, not just the Little Girl in the Red Coat from the movie who was about 4 years old. I was amused when one poster in another thread or forum said that Julia was 'too old' to portray that child. She can't win. There is nothing 'juniorish' about her skating. Polina Edmunds is 'juniorish' in comparison imo as is Elena Radionova. Julia is far more polished than that. She has a certain elegance, she has grace, not at the level of say a Mao but it is there just the same. She also has, along with Adelina something that cannot be taught - star quality if you will. Imo, her Schindler's List program is breathtaking when she is in the zone. She and Adelina are both enchanting with a pixie or fairy like quality about them. In Julia's case, when she is on she is ethereal, there is something almost other-worldly about her.

That being said - I think that Carolina is in trouble. I think she is in real danger of missing the Olympic podium again, even if she lands her jumps well. The judges have shown this at the European Championships and the GPs last fall. She has now been beaten at least a couple of times by Russian skaters and two of them are headed to Sochi. The judges, as someone upthread seemed to be saying, are willing to give out huge PCS scores if you can bring the big jumps or have that certain something which Julia has in spades. I think Gracie is going to be a threat for top 5 in Sochi too, along with Kim, Asada, Sotnikova, and Lipnitskaya.

@ Sasha

Julia is very talented for her age. If you put her up against junior girls, someone like Polina Edmunds, she blows them out of the water. It's not even close.

The problem I have is comparing her to more mature looking ladies, who have better interpretation skills, and better skating skills. It's not her fault she's not there yet, she's only 15. Let's not rush to judge her as greater than skaters who are clearly better at the present time. Adelina is young too, 17, but she looks mature enough on the ice to cast an imposing presence.

The great irony of Julia's program is that the Nazi state machinery was ruthless and technically efficient. The girl in the red coat was a small amount of art and humanity added to personify the shift away from technically monotonous death and destruction. Julia of course is a technician. She just attacks over and over again, her program being stuffed with too much choreography for the music and the material. I know it doesn't occur to most people when they watch the skate, but for me personally I find this ironic contrast between skater and meaning to be in bad taste.

ETA:

Of course in the film, Spielberg manipulates the girl, she doesn't perform her role in a vacuum. But Julia's not old enough and doesn't have the interpretation skills to really bring life to the meaning of that role. I guess it's enough for a lot of commentators to just go "wow, girl in red coat, schindler's list, how heartbreaking!" But the girl in the red coat symbolizes great change that you don't see in her program. The ideal construction of the program would have the girl start out with technical brilliance but then slow down into a more artistic and deeper performance by the end.

Ven said:

@ Sasha

Julia is very talented for her age. If you put her up against junior girls, someone like Polina Edmunds, she blows them out of the water. It's not even close.

The problem I have is comparing her to more mature looking ladies, who have better interpretation skills, and better skating skills. It's not her fault she's not there yet, she's only 15. Let's not rush to judge her as greater than skaters who are clearly better at the present time. Adelina is young too, 17, but she looks mature enough on the ice to cast an imposing presence.

The great irony of Julia's program is that the Nazi state machinery was ruthless and technically efficient. The girl in the red coat was a small amount of art and humanity added to personify the shift away from technically monotonous death and destruction. Julia of course is a technician. She just attacks over and over again, her program being stuffed with too much choreography for the music and the material. I know it doesn't occur to most people when they watch the skate, but for me personally I find this ironic contrast between skater and meaning to be in bad taste.

ETA:

Of course in the film, Spielberg manipulates the girl, she doesn't perform her role in a vacuum. But Julia's not old enough and doesn't have the interpretation skills to really bring life to the meaning of that role. I guess it's enough for a lot of commentators to just go "wow, girl in red coat, schindler's list, how heartbreaking!" But the girl in the red coat symbolizes great change that you don't see in her program. The ideal construction of the program would have the girl start out with technical brilliance but then slow down into a more artistic and deeper performance by the end.

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And here we have to disagree. I think that Julia DOES have the interpretative skills for the particular part she is trying to convey on the ice - it gives me chills when she is on and really selling it. I don't see what her age has to do with it. She is gifted enough to pull it off, just like some 15 year old (or younger!) actors have been gifted enough to pull off some extraodinary performances on stage or screen. And on the ice, imo Oksana Baiul at 15 had this gift too.

As to the girl in the red coat symbolizing 'great change', with all due respect, you seem to be projecting your own ideas as to what Julia is trying to interpret. I can't find the article now but IIRC she has stated that she is not the little girl in red from the movie. She said that she is simply a representation of children who suffered the atrocities of the Holocaust, and that her interpretation is just one girl's view of that time. I think she has succeeded above and beyond - and especially if you know the back story of Schindler's List. I think it is a haunting performance. I don't agree that Carolina is portraying anything or anyone better in her program to Bolero. Frankly, as someone said upthread, her interpretation bordered on cheesy. The hip shakes didn't help either. Now, talk to me about Caro's 'Faun' or 'Mozart' programs when she competed them at the height of her powers - and that is a whole different dimension altogether!

TryMeLater said:

I found Julia to be quite rude with her answers...

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She was just being honest - she doesn't remember Slutskaya in 2006 so why should she lie and say that Irina is her idol if she isn't? I think Julia put it as diplomatically as one could. Maybe she's seen videos of Slutskaya competing and she doesn't think that she was all that - which is understandable. A lot of people didn't like Irina's skating - I was one of them, although I admired the height she got in her jumps and I did enjoy her 'Tosca' FS. But then I compared her to far more artistic skaters like Sasha Cohen and Michelle Kwan.

TryMeLater said:

She's 15...Not a kid, but a teenager.

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What are you talking about? Anyone who is a minor is a kid. She's just a child. Even an 18 year old is just a kid as far as I'm considered.

I have been watching the competition alive in the arena. I was waiting to see the ladies alive after watching them so many times in records and videos.

My impressions:
Carolina Kostner was breathtaking. THAT was FIGURE SKATING at its best. She couldn't win with the errors, but still VERY memorable. Her advantage in PC scores must have been at LEAST 1,5 points in each and every cathegory. Judges starts to give too high scores to mediocre skaters and than it deletes
the difference in the top, because no room remained to mark the difference (same in Ice Dance). If I/K gets 9s, Davis/White and Virtue/Moir MUST have something like 11,5 points.....

Julia Lipnitskaya was the only WOW experience to date in the whole European Championships . I thought her jumps are small and she is very small etc.
Watching her alive changed completely my opinion. She has the whole package, which is VERY rare in ladies skating.
She is emotional without "emoting" herself.
Her technique is immaculate jumping and spinning as well. Her edge could improve. Thinking of the Oly Champs Lipinski or Hughes or Baiul, Lipnitskaya is in a completely different league right now in this age. She is a small ballerina with a very natural style and tastefullness.
I surprised myself to say that (because being a fan of +beautiful skating+ ala Yu-Na, Mao and Carolina), this kid has a good chance for a medal, even a shot for GOLD medal in Sochi.

Adelina Sotnikova impressed me more on video than alive. She is good, she is very good, a lots of potential, but it is very obvious that she is WORKING on the ice and collecting points. Very small poetry included, and almost no ethernity. Still impressive technique.

LADIES FREE SKATE - VIDEOS & RESULT - Updated

1. Julia LIPNITSKAIA (RUS) - 209.72 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy, 5th Copy, 6th Copy
2. Adelina SOTNIKOVA (RUS) - 202.36 FS, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy, 5th Copy, 6th Copy, 7th Copy
3. Carolina KOSTNER (ITA) - 191.39 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy, 5th Copy, 6th Copy
4. Alena LEONOVA (RUS) - 178.15 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy
5. Mae Berenice MEITE (FRA) - 173.37 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy
6. Valentina MARCHEI (ITA) - 165.25 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy
7. Elena GLEBOVA (EST) - 155.71 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
8. Nathalie WEINZIERL (GER) - 151.88 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
9. Joshi HELGESSON (SWE) - 146.45 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
10. Elene GEDEVANISHVILI (GEO) - 141.82 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
11. Roberta RODEGHIERO (ITA) - 141.25 Free Skate
12. Juulia TURKKILA (FIN) - 140.31 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
13. Laurine LECAVELIER (FRA) - 139.42 Free Skate
14. Viktoria HELGESSON (SWE) - 138.73 Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
15. Eliska BREZINOVA (CZE) - 130.35 Free Skate
16. Isabelle OLSSON (SWE) - 129.39
17. Nicole RAJICOVA (SVK) - 128.25 Free Skate
18. Inga JANULEVICIUTE (LTU) - 126.20
19. Anne Line GJERSEM (NOR) - 125.58 Free Skate
20. Kaat VAN DAELE (BEL) - 123.05
21. Agata KRYGER (POL) - 119.52
22. Marta GARCIA (ESP) - 118.11 Free Skate
23. Natalia POPOVA (UKR) - 112.26 Free Skate
24. Jenna MCCORKELL (GBR) - 110.19

Medal Ceremony (2nd Copy), Complete Ladies Free Skate, Complete Groups 1+2, Complete Groups 3+4

I think Adelina is really skating as a lady now, her feet are secure and her moves finished. Her jumps are huge too. Her program is very packed too.
The effect of Julia's program is aiming mostly at live audiences and not all people know or care about flutz, 2x etc.. Interesting input , we were sitting with a girl who saw fs first time at the ladies final. Not only she keeps speaking about her sad program, her dress, her spins etc, but she gave SO before we stood up, the moment she of the I spin, almost all audience was starting stading up.
Plus my mum told me that the girl with red coat made our newspapers whole page in the sports section, and that is really rare. Averbuck was just brilliant on this idea.

seniorita said:

I think Adelina is really skating as a lady now, her feet are secure and her moves finished. Her jumps are huge too. Her program is very packed too.
The effect of Julia's program is aiming mostly at live audiences and not all people know or care about flutz, 2x etc.. Interesting input , we were sitting with a girl who saw fs first time at the ladies final. Not only she keeps speaking about her sad program, her dress, her spins etc, but she gave SO before we stood up, the moment she of the I spin, almost all audience was starting stading up.
Plus my mum told me that the girl with red coat made our newspapers whole page in the sports section, and that is really rare. Averbuck was just brilliant on this idea.

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Of course Julia is talented, and her precociousness is rare. But there is something critically missing in her skating. I am not trying to rain in any body's parade, but to help better understand, I suggest, if you will, google Mao Asada 2005 Grand Prix Final. that gives you insight on why people keep talking about maturity and junior skating and why it matters.

If you watch that footage you can understand why Julia's current skating is problematic. of course you may not agree everything, but you will see difference.

Although Asada at that time looks slow, and unsophisticated, her skating is an example how one should skate. Julia's skating appears brilliant because it imitates the shallow cloak named excellence but without basic, absence of which is often lethal to skater. That' s what exactly cost Liza's skating today. if you see the footage, you may wonder why Julia cannot make the line Asada made with arm and bodyline, and more importantly edge. you can tell Asada skates with her full weight unlike Julia whose skating indicates her body cannot absorb the landing weight. Even Asada at 15 skated like senior not junior. that's difference.

what Julia needs is not jumping technique; it's basic skating. Julia's answer can be found in Polina Edmunds' skating. Although Polina still retains junior quality in her skating, she is most advanced one and very close to senior. Look at how Polina jumps, especially her triple triple. that's the way it should be.

HalfTriple said:

Of course Julia is talented, and her precociousness is rare. But there is something critically missing in her skating. I am not trying to rain in any body's parade, but to help better understand, I suggest, if you will, google Mao Asada 2005 Grand Prix Final. that gives you insight on why people keep talking about maturity and junior skating and why it matters.

If you watch that footage you can understand why Julia's current skating is problematic. of course you may not agree everything, but you will see difference.

Although Asada at that time looks slow, and unsophisticated, her skating is an example how one should skate. Julia's skating appears brilliant because it imitates the shallow cloak named excellence but without basic, absence of which is often lethal to skater. That' s what exactly cost Liza's skating today. if you see the footage, you may wonder why Julia cannot make the line Asada made with arm and bodyline, and more importantly edge. you can tell Asada skates with her full weight unlike Julia whose skating indicates her body cannot absorb the landing weight. Even Asada at 15 skated like senior not junior. that's difference.

what Julia needs is not jumping technique; it's basic skating. Julia's answer can be found in Polina Edmunds' skating. Although Polina still retains junior quality in her skating, she is most advanced one and very close to senior. Look at how Polina jumps, especially her triple triple. that's the way it should be.

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you've been campaigning on multiple threads about how Julia and her FS is manipualtive
Julia cant make the same line in her arms and body is because she is smaller, Edmunds is taller so she can stroke and power through her knees better
saying Polina is the most advanced junior skating like a senior, look at her skating its still unrefined too and gangly

sounds like another troll on the forum

Carolina's presentation was tacky. Oh and what's with the final spin. She is such a mediocre spinner it negates most of the impact the program once had. Her short program is much betta.

The Russians were overscored. I know these girls will be skating on home ice in the Games but this is too much.

sky_fly20 said:

you've been campaigning on multiple threads about how Julia and her FS is manipualtive
Julia cant make the same line in her arms and body is because she is smaller, Edmunds is taller so she can stroke and power through her knees better
saying Polina is the most advanced junior skating like a senior, look at her skating its still unrefined too and gangly

sounds like another troll on the forum

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You can disagree, but please do not distort what I said. I didn't say anything about Polina's bodyline or anything except her 3-3 jump, and I didn't mention Poilna doesn't have defects or something like that. I am just trying to help people understand better. I didn't remember I said anything manipulative about Julia, did I?

I really really enjoy the perspective shared from those who were at the event. Thank you so much. It sheds a perspective that you just don't see on tv. I usually watch the crowds reaction and especially noticed people jumping during Julia's final spin. Must have been electric. Caro too seemed to move the crowd. It must have been a great event to attend.

Sam-Skwantch said:

I really really enjoy the perspective shared from those who were at the event. Thank you so much. It sheds a perspective that you just don't see on tv. I usually watch the crowds reaction and especially noticed people jumping during Julia's final spin. Must have been electric. Caro too seemed to move the crowd. It must have been a great event to attend.

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If my comments appears over-criticizing, that's not what I intended. Perhaps I am over-passionate to make Julia a perfect skater. no one in right mind say that Julia is not a talent itself.

Do only I think that the silver medal should have gone to Kostner?

Adelina : clean SP(3T3T, 3F) + 4.7 triples LP
Kostner : clean SP(3T3T, 3Lo) + 4 triples LP

EricRohmer said:

Do only I think that the silver medal should have gone to Kostner?

Adelina : clean SP(3T3T, 3F) + 4.7 triples LP
Kostner : clean SP(3T3T, 3Lo) + 4 triples LP

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yes, you are. Sotnikova had 6 triples in the LP, one of them underrotated and one "e". Kostner had 5 triples, one underrotated and a fall, missed combo if i am not mistaken...