Women and the Quad

Edwin said:

whole post

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@Edwin, can I ask if this is an article in an established news media or quotes that a blogger with an agenda gathered together?

Also, if it is a blogger or an established news media, do they give links to the original interviews? Personlly, I am not comfortable commenting on quotes out of context.

Finally, and I realize you are translating from Russian, thank you! so this is nitpicking, but Sam *Auxier* would be talking about a quad *Salchow*. We don’t have rough breathings in English translations, except in limited academic settings, so no one would know what those marks are

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4ugnL_-bvA
Latest Sasha's 4S (and couple of other "usual" quads as well)

TallyT said:

Ya think?

And Raf... well, let's be ultra-polite and just call his statement unblushingly disengenuous....

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I wonder if Raf would feel the same if Alysa was his student? Hmmmm...

TallyT said:

Ya think?

And Raf... well, let's be ultra-polite and just call his statement unblushingly disengenuous....

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I agree Raf sounded pretty disengenuous and I'd say hypocrytical because if I remember correctly Nathan started training quads pretty early as well. And now he also has Gogolev who is 14 and jumps a lot of quads.
I do however think that Trusova, maybe Kihira and maybe Tursynbaeva will be the only ladies (of the current crop attempting them) capable of jumping these elements in a couple of years. Trusova because her elements are clearly based on power and height, Kihira because of her great technique and Tursynbaeva because she already does it.
I know it is probably a controversial view but I don't see Shcherbakova, Valieva or Liu doing their quads when they are 18/19 years old because their quads are based on a crazy fast rotation and it doesn't seem like a sustainable technique to me. Only time will tell however.

Yuzuruu said:

I agree Raf sounded pretty disengenuous and I'd say hypocrytical because if I remember correctly Nathan started training quads pretty early as well. And now he also has Gogolev who is 14 and jumps a lot of quads.
I do however think that Trusova, maybe Kihira and maybe Tursynbaeva will be the only ladies (of the current crop attempting them) capable of jumping these elements in a couple of years. Trusova because her elements are clearly based on power and height, Kihira because of her great technique and Tursynbaeva because she already does it.
I know it is probably a controversial view but I don't see Shcherbakova, Valieva or Liu doing their quads when they are 18/19 years old because their quads are based on a crazy fast rotation and it doesn't seem like a sustainable technique to me. Only time will tell however.

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I would not be in a hurry to put these three in a row. Compare 4T Valieva 65 cm and 5.1 RPS and 4 Lz Liu with 51 cm and 5.75 RPS. These are different jumps in essence. Valieva is jumping her 4T as adult men now. Of course, she will grow up and much will change. We will see.
Information from here:
https://vk.com/basevalue

Alex65 said:

I would not be in a hurry to put these three in a row. Compare 4T Valieva 65 cm and 5.1 RPS and 4 Lz Liu with 51 cm and 5.75 RPS. These are different jumps in essence. Valieva is jumping her 4T as adult men now. Of course, she will grow up and much will change. We will see.
Information from here:
https://vk.com/basevalue

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To be honest I do not regard these stats to carry much value since they've been so keen on "measuring" Kihira's quad from a bad quality instagram video at the same time having a great quality junior worlds Trusova video, that was a few months ago, before Kihira jumped her 4sal in any show. To me they seem extremely biased. That's just my very subjective opinion though
I am very, very curious to see who will be able to keep their quads 2020 Senior Worlds will be insane in ladie's field for sure.

Yuzuruu said:

To be honest I do not regard these stats to carry much value since they've been so keen on "measuring" Kihira's quad from a bad quality instagram video at the same time having a great quality junior worlds Trusova video, that was a few months ago, before Kihira jumped her 4sal in any show. To me they seem extremely biased. That's just my very subjective opinion though
I am very, very curious to see who will be able to keep their quads 2020 Senior Worlds will be insane in ladie's field for sure.

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Perhaps at Japan Open, JPN fed will put its technical gimmicks up in the arena again, their Axelcam and such? Those kind of replays and statistics will go down well with the audience.

Yuzuruu said:

2020 Senior Worlds will be insane in ladie's field for sure.

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Yes, I am excited and scared at the same time for worlds and it is only October!!:scard7:

Edwin said:

Perhaps at Japan Open, JPN fed will put its technical gimmicks up in the arena again, their Axelcam and such? Those kind of replays and statistics will go down well with the audience.

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I hope so I also hope they won't be biased towards skaters other than Japanese

Yuzuruu said:

I hope so I also hope they won't be biased towards skaters other than Japanese

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Female Europe team is the strongest possible, their male counterparts? How is Fernandez, I am sure he won't want to let his female team members down, but being out of skating for a while ....

It's only free program and probably all guns blazing from every competitor to earn the best marks. Will there be a gala and quad battle? Will Aleksandra try all her four quads this one time?

Japan respects figure skating very much, there won't be an obvious bias (I hope), The audience and every Japanese fan adores Zagitova and Trusova almost as dear as they adore their own skaters.
Nathan Chen and Vincent Zhou are very well like there too, and they have an all star cast outside of the big events.

Here are some promo clips: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQdQrwUC7Ww and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnHAicqylEE
but these probably should go in the competition thread.

Edwin said:

Female Europe team is the strongest possible, their male counterparts? How is Fernandez, I am sure he won't want to let his female team members down, but being out of skating for a while ....

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Satisfy the customer, satisfy the custormer, satisfy the customer. :yes:

The Japan Open always includes a smattering of "oldies but goodies" -- skaters who are retired from competition, but the audience loves to see them perform anyway. Last year Nobunari Oda (retired in 2014) skated for Japan -- and beat Nathan Chen!

In 2013 Irina Slutskaya (officially retired in 2007) participated.

Yuzuruu said:

I agree Raf sounded pretty disengenuous and I'd say hypocrytical because if I remember correctly Nathan started training quads pretty early as well. And now he also has Gogolev who is 14 and jumps a lot of quads.
I do however think that Trusova, maybe Kihira and maybe Tursynbaeva will be the only ladies (of the current crop attempting them) capable of jumping these elements in a couple of years. Trusova because her elements are clearly based on power and height, Kihira because of her great technique and Tursynbaeva because she already does it.
I know it is probably a controversial view but I don't see Shcherbakova, Valieva or Liu doing their quads when they are 18/19 years old because their quads are based on a crazy fast rotation and it doesn't seem like a sustainable technique to me. Only time will tell however.

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Except Kamila's 4T is just as higher as Sasha's, if not higher - and it looks like she gets more distance as well. I believe that's the most "powerful" ladies quad we've seen.

katymay said:

I wonder if Raf would feel the same if Alysa was his student? Hmmmm...

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I think Raf would jump at the chance to have Alysa as his student!

jenaj said:

I think Raf would jump at the chance to have Alysa as his student!

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a quad?


sorry, couldn't help it; I'll show myself out...

Yuzuruu said:

I do however think that Trusova, maybe Kihira and maybe Tursynbaeva will be the only ladies (of the current crop attempting them) capable of jumping these elements in a couple of years. Trusova because her elements are clearly based on power and height, Kihira because of her great technique and Tursynbaeva because she already does it.

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If Kihira gets one reliable quad, everyone else is in big trouble. Being able to do a 3A instead of a 2A in the SP is a big advantage, and I don't think any of the women doing quads are on Rika's PCS level (yet). With one or two quads and one or two 3As in the LP, a clean Rika would be hard to pass with her SP advantage. Mathematically, someone like Trusova could do it, but three quads and no 3A over two programs might not be enough to top one quad and three 3As over two programs if the PCS scores aren't close.

drivingmissdaisy said:

If Kihira gets one reliable quad, everyone else is in big trouble. Being able to do a 3A instead of a 2A in the SP is a big advantage, and I don't think any of the women doing quads are on Rika's PCS level (yet). With one or two quads and one or two 3As in the LP, a clean Rika would be hard to pass with her SP advantage. Mathematically, someone like Trusova could do it, but three quads and no 3A over two programs might not be enough to top one quad and three 3As over two programs if the PCS scores aren't close.

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Rika doesn't have the best PCS and I'm not sure if she'll be able to dominate with 1 quad and 2 3As. Her 3A always seemed so consistent in practice but inconsistent at competitions (which probably has to do with her nerves). She had a tendency to pop it and never skated two clean programs with it last season. From the videos we've seen, her 4S is pretty UR and relied mostly on incredibly fast rotation rather than height but hopefully it'll be better at Japan Open!

ec00834 said:

Rika doesn't have the best PCS and I'm not sure if she'll be able to dominate with 1 quad and 2 3As. Her 3A always seems so consistent in practice but inconsistent in competitions. She had a tendency to pop it and never skated two clean programs with it last season. From the videos we've seen, her 4s is pretty UR and relied mostly on incredibly fast rotation rather than height but hopefully it'll be better at Japan Open!

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Compared to the other girls with similar difficult technical content, Rika has better SS, better transitions, better all around skating. She should get higher PCS than them. ( the don’t think her PCS should be higher than Satoko) But, PCS is rarely handed out fairly so I don’t think she will benefit that much from these skills.

I don’t think Rika’s quad (from several months ago) is any less rotated than Elizabet’s quad at worlds which was called clean. Most of the girls quads are a bit UR ( close to the 90 degree mark)but still called clean so we will see if the technical panels do the same with Rika. It does rely on fast rotation as do all the other quad girls.

I do agree that Rika has struggled with inconsistency in competition but she improves each year. Hopefully this year we will see more improvements. Rika is the best all around skater in the world (IMO) but she has not been the best competitor. ( Sasha/Alysa are better competitors). Sometimes being mentally strong is more important than good SS or great technique.

drivingmissdaisy said:

If Kihira gets one reliable quad, everyone else is in big trouble. Being able to do a 3A instead of a 2A in the SP is a big advantage, and I don't think any of the women doing quads are on Rika's PCS level (yet). With one or two quads and one or two 3As in the LP, a clean Rika would be hard to pass with her SP advantage. Mathematically, someone like Trusova could do it, but three quads and no 3A over two programs might not be enough to top one quad and three 3As over two programs if the PCS scores aren't close.

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I disagree.

First, there is a matter of consistency - if Kihira`s 4S is as stable as her 3As, she can just as well lose to a bunch of girls with no quad or 3A at all.
As an example, lets look at her 3A in short last year (short because no mess with combo success rate factored into it):
Nepela: 3A fall, 3.00 (with fall deduction)
NHK: 3A< fall, 2.00
GP France: 1A*, 0.00
GPF: 3A clean, 10.51
4CC: 1A*, 0.00
Worlds: 1A* 0.00
The average is 2.58, which is less than a clean 3A

But ok, suppose its a game where everybody skates clean. Jumps only.

Trusova`s TES in SP: 2A, 3F, 3Lz+3Lox = 20.48 + 4.97 GOE she got at Nepela
Trusova`s FS, cleanish: 4Lz, 4T+3T, 4T, 2A, 3Lz+2Lox, 3Lz+1Eu+3Sx, 3Fx = 63.96 + 12.39
Trusova`s FS if clean: 4Lz, 4T+3T, 4T, 2A, 3Lz+3Lox, 3Lz+1Eu+3Sx, 3Fx = 67.48 + 14.99
Total if clean: 25.45 + 82.47 = 107.92

Kihira (using ACI as reference, and her free at NHK last year, which was her best scoring FS):
SP: 3A, 3F+3T, 3Lo = 22.89 + 4.28 GOE at ACI
FS: 3A+2T, 3A, 3F, 3S, 3F+3T, 3Lz+2T+2Lo, 3Lo = 52.53 + 12.09
Total if clean: 27.17 + 64.62 = 91.79

Also, keep in mind that Trusova hits her levels, so there won't be a huge difference in other elements. The only difference would be PCs, really.
So, Trusova loses 2 points in TES in SP (she backloads her combo, and has a 3Lz instead of a 3T, that makes up for a good part of the 3A advantage).
And in the FS, Trusova has an advantage of 18 points or so, due not to quads only, but also to an overall much harder layout.

Now, 4S BV is 9.70. It would replace a jump though, so its not like full BV and GOE will be added. Assume thats a +6 (4.5BV + 1.5GOE on top of her 3S) points to Rika, and still a gap of 10 points between both girls.

Lets look at their PCs.
At ACI, Rika got 34 + 69. That is what she was getting last year too, so its not like it is an exceptionally low score.
At Nepela, Trusova got 32 + 65.

An advantage of 6 points for Rika compared to a girl competing in seniors for 1st time. Bad news, Trusova's PCs will raise.

Mathematically, Trusova's quads, backloaded combos, 3Lzs across 2 programs beat Rika's 3x3A and a 4S.

readernick said:

Compared to the other girls with similar difficult technical content, Rika has better SS, better transitions, better all around skating. She should get higher PCS than them. ( the don’t think her PCS should be higher than Satoko) But, PCS is rarely handed out fairly so I don’t think she will benefit that much from these skills.

I don’t think Rika’s quad (from several months ago) is any less rotated than Elizabet’s quad at worlds which was called clean. Most of the girls quads are a bit UR ( close to the 90 degree mark)but still called clean so we will see if the technical panels do the same with Rika. It does rely on fast rotation as do all the other quad girls.

I do agree that Rika has struggled with inconsistency in competition but she improves each year. Hopefully this year we will see more improvements. Rika is the best all around skater in the world (IMO) but she has not been the best competitor. ( Sasha/Alysa are better competitors). Sometimes being mentally strong is more important than good SS or great technique.

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Rika has pretty good SS, I would say slightly better than Sasha and Anna but not by a wide margin. And transitions, I mean? Daniil's programs are known for being packed with transitions. All around skating is kind of subjective. Imo, Rika's skating isn't super impressive; she doesn't perform or interpret as well as some other ladies (I would say about equal to Sasha and worse than Anna). She does have textbook technique but judges don't really reward that.

I don't understand why so many people think Elizabet's quad was UR. I genuinely can not see how (even in slow motion) it could be considered more than 90. Rika's, on the other hand, sometimes looks UR sometimes downgraded. Her fast rotation hides it well tho.

Imo, the best all-around skater is Aliona. I want to say she has the best skating skills out of all the senior ladies even Satoko, her skating is just exquisite. Her jumps are huge and I don't think she needs multiple quads to be competitive as long as she gets fair PCS.

ec00834 said:

Rika doesn't have the best PCS and I'm not sure if she'll be able to dominate with 1 quad and 2 3As. Her 3A always seemed so consistent in practice but inconsistent at competitions (which probably has to do with her nerves). She had a tendency to pop it and never skated two clean programs with it last season. From the videos we've seen, her 4S is pretty UR and relied mostly on incredibly fast rotation rather than height but hopefully it'll be better at Japan Open!

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I honestly think rika is overrated, she’s never been consistent even in juniors and her programs are subpar this year with 0 interpretation. Sasha will be in a league of her own