Women and the Quad | Page 55 | Golden Skate

Women and the Quad

I think your "commonplace" requires statistics, because for me, you seem to be projecting your own oppinion.
For example, I know a number of people who firmly believe that Zagitova outperforms Miyahara in most PC categories, and thus deserves higher PCs overall. Judges seem to agree with this. So, it would be fair so say that this is the common place oppinion maybe?

For reference, my actual comment was: "It is also a commonplace opinion that Miyahara is one of the most exquisite skaters in the field". Are you suggesting that it's not common for people to say that Miyahara is one of the most exquisite skaters out there? There's tons of threads/comments/videos/etc. extolling the virtues of her artistry and maturity and overall skating ability. She consistently gets some of the highest PCS, even if she has a bad technical skate (e.g. last year at Worlds, even with flawed skates, she had the 4th highest PCS in both segments; at the 2018 GPF in spite of poor technical skates that placed her last overall, she still had the 3rd highest PCS in both segments; at Worlds 2018 she had the 3rd highest PCS in both segments, etc.). To me that is indicative of her being "one of the most exquisite skaters in the field" (although you don't need the highest PCS to be an exquisite skater).

Golden Skate also did a poll for Best Step Sequence last year. https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?79888-Best-step-sequence-Ladies It is a commonplace opinion ( ;) ), that the Step Sequence is a true showcase of a skater's overall ability -- skating skills, timing, control, interpretation and expression. Satoko happened to win that by a landslide.

And to reiterate, I was giving my opinion that Miyahara is a better PCS skater than Zagitova. Others and the judges might not agree with me, but that's totally fine. We're allowed to have differing opinions.
 
For reference, my actual comment was: "It is also a commonplace opinion that Miyahara is one of the most exquisite skaters in the field". Are you suggesting that it's not common for people to say that Miyahara is one of the most exquisite skaters out there? There's tons of threads/comments/videos/etc. extolling the virtues of her artistry and maturity and overall skating ability. She consistently gets some of the highest PCS, even if she has a bad technical skate (e.g. last year at Worlds, even with flawed skates, she had the 4th highest PCS in both segments; at the 2018 GPF in spite of poor technical skates that placed her last overall, she still had the 3rd highest PCS in both segments; at Worlds 2018 she had the 3rd highest PCS in both segments, etc.). To me that is indicative of her being "one of the most exquisite skaters in the field" (although you don't need the highest PCS to be an exquisite skater).

Golden Skate also did a poll for Best Step Sequence last year. https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?79888-Best-step-sequence-Ladies It is a commonplace opinion ( ;) ), that the Step Sequence is a true showcase of a skater's overall ability -- skating skills, timing, control, interpretation and expression. Satoko happened to win that by a landslide.

And to reiterate, I was giving my opinion that Miyahara is a better PCS skater than Zagitova. Others and the judges might not agree with me, but that's totally fine. We're allowed to have differing opinions.

Why are they being mentioned in this thread when neither of them do quads?
 
Why are they being mentioned in this thread when neither of them do quads?

Seems to me CSG was answering a question, although I don’t want to speak for him. The title of the thread is “Ladies *and* the quad” not “list everyone who does a quad”.

Otherwise we wouldn't have what seems to me to be endless references to Alysa Liu in the Russian Ladies thread, would we? ;)
 
Why are they being mentioned in this thread when neither of them do quads?

Because they are competing directly with ladies who do? And therefore the reasons why they may - just may - beat quad ladies is significant? :scratch3:
 
Seems to me CSG was answering a question, although I don’t want to speak for him. The title of the thread is “Ladies *and* the quad” not “list everyone who does a quad”.

Otherwise we wouldn't have what seems to me to be endless references to Alysa Liu in the Russian Ladies thread, would we? ;)

A thread for talking about ladies who do quad jumps. This isn't a thread for Satoko and Alina's PCS.
 
Because they are competing directly with ladies who do? And therefore the reasons why they may - just may - beat quad ladies is significant? :scratch3:

Every lady will eventually compete with someone who does quads, that's why we have ranking predictions. There's no point in bringing up Satoko's PCS on a "ladies and the quad" thread. She has nice skating skills and that's great but comparing two non quad jumping skaters isn't the point. Otherwise, why not compare Gabby Daleman and Mariah Bell's interpretation?
 
Every lady will eventually compete with someone who does quads, that's why we have ranking predictions. There's no point in bringing up Satoko's PCS on a "ladies and the quad" thread. She has nice skating skills and that's great but comparing two non quad jumping skaters isn't the point. Otherwise, why not compare Gabby Daleman and Mariah Bell's interpretation?

No, still don't see it. It's like the triple axel discussion, some ladies are not going to go for it because they are better off without it, and the reasons why they are better off without it are pertinent to any discussion of it.

Otherwise, the minute someone actually goes and bes and does the 4A we are going to have a very very VERY singular thread....
 
No, still don't see it. It's like the triple axel discussion, some ladies are not going to go for it because they are better off without it, and the reasons why they are better off without it are pertinent to any discussion of it.

Otherwise, the minute someone actually goes and bes and does the 4A we are going to have a very very VERY singular thread....

But the discussion was about whether or not Satoko had better PCS than Alina, which has nothing to do with going or not going for quads.
 
Putting the quad discussion in context. Some thread drift will happen. And can be brought back to the main topic through relevant discussion.
 
But the discussion was about whether or not Satoko had better PCS than Alina, which has nothing to do with going or not going for quads.

Thread drift is inevitable. Someone asked a question and I answered.

Even without currently having quads, Satoko and Alina are skaters who can hold their own against many of the quadsters for now. There, we cool now? ;)
 
Thread drift is inevitable. Someone asked a question and I answered.

Even without currently having quads, Satoko and Alina are skaters who can hold their own against many of the quadsters for now. There, we cool now? ;)

Alina - yes, Satoko - hardly: skating clean she lost 11 points in the free program to Young You. She can only win over quadsters if they have really bad day, sorry.
 
Alina - yes, Satoko - hardly: skating clean she lost 11 points in the free program to Young You. She can only win over quadsters if they have really bad day, sorry.

She was not clean in the FS of the US classic. She had a downgrade, 2 URs and a spin error. Her score was 130, and it was not representative of how well she can skate. Even without a quad, at her best she could still pull around 220-225 points overall, which is still pretty competitive with the quadsters (except Trusova). Certainly if you juxtaposed their programs, there would be (or at least should be) a significant PCS advantage Miyahara has to counter the technical advantage the quadsters have. Of course, if the quadsters are absolutely clean, then yes, they're likely to beat even a clean Miyahara (but that's a big if; although Miyahara herself hasn't skated her best as of late either). Don't get me wrong, I'm thoroughly impressed with the quadsters technically but artistically in terms of finesse, expression and sophistication, IMO Miyahara still skates circles around them from a choreo/artistry standpoint. She's essentially a Jason Brown type. Not technically strong, but her artistry still keeps her in the mix.

As for the quadsters having a really bad day if that means them not executing the quad, then yeah, they might have a bad day since a quad is exceedingly difficult to consistently land. Especially if they face greater pressure in the senior ranks.
 
She was not clean in the FS of the US classic. She had a downgrade, 2 URs and a spin error. Her score was 130, and it was not representative of how well she can skate. Even without a quad, at her best she could still pull around 220-225 points overall, which is still pretty competitive with the quadsters (except Trusova). Certainly if you juxtaposed their programs, there would be (or at least should be) a significant PCS advantage Miyahara has to counter the technical advantage the quadsters have. Of course, if the quadsters are absolutely clean, then yes, they're likely to beat even a clean Miyahara (but that's a big if; although Miyahara herself hasn't skated her best as of late either). Don't get me wrong, I'm thoroughly impressed with the quadsters technically but artistically in terms of finesse, expression and sophistication, IMO Miyahara still skates circles around them from a choreo/artistry standpoint. She's essentially a Jason Brown type. Not technically strong, but her artistry still keeps her in the mix.

As for the quadsters having a really bad day if that means them not executing the quad, then yeah, they might have a bad day since a quad is exceedingly difficult to consistently land. Especially if they face greater pressure in the senior ranks.

I agree that Satoko’s artistry is far above just about anyone else, but she is not rewarded for it. She usually gets in the high 8s in PCS. A clean Jason Browne gets in the 9s. I would like to ask the judges why they do not score Satoko higher, especially in performance and interpretation.

ETA: To give an example of the puzzling PCS scoring for Satoko, at the most recent Worlds, her scores were about the same as Elisabet Tursynbaeva.
 
I agree that Satoko’s artistry is far above just about anyone else, but she is not rewarded for it. She usually gets in the high 8s in PCS. A clean Jason Browne gets in the 9s. I would like to ask the judges why they do not score Satoko higher, especially in performance and interpretation.

ETA: To give an example of the puzzling PCS scoring for Satoko, at the most recent Worlds, her scores were about the same as Elisabet Tursynbaeva.

Not to derail the thread, but maybe Satoko does not look as impressive live to the judges as she does on TV?
 
“We need to listen to the doctors before disaster strikes.” What is said about quadruple jumps around the world

Someone is against, someone is in favour.

This season, female figure skating has reached a new level. Aleksandra Trusova, a 15-year-old pupil of Eteri Tutberidze, burst into the senior season with her quadruple jumps. The Guinness Book of Records has already written her name in history, Trusova is the first girl to perform three quads in one program in senior competitions at the international level.

Foreign coaches and experts are in admiration, but in parallel to this universe, there are also people who consider quads an absolute evil for young skaters. Sport24 gathered both camps in one place.

Alexey Mishin, trainer of Yelizaveta Tuktamysheva

“Young and very thin girls will represent female figure skating from these days and forever. But this is not only about age. The main thing is the size of the body. Thin girls have much less inertia along the long axis of the body than the others. So their speed of rotation during jumps is much higher.

Of course, it is possible to prohibit triple Axel's and quadruple jumps in women's skating. But this is completely stupid. "

Rafael Harutyunyan, coach of Nathan Chen

“Let's see what happens with these girls next. Will they do these jumps at the age of 18-19? Now their body has not yet formed, and their bones are still growing.

What will happen to them at 40? Maybe they need new hips? It seems to me that physiotherapists should speak out on this topic before a catastrophe occurs. ”

Eteri Tutberidze, coach of Aleksandra Trusova

“After the Junior World Cup, at which Aleksandra jumped two quadruple jumps, their value was reduced. I do not understand how it was possible to lower the value of quadruple jumps. After all, every jump Sasha takes is a huge, incomparable risk.

If it is very dangerous, it should be rewarded twice as much. So that a person understands why he is taking this risk. Otherwise, there is no motivation to do difficult jumps. Even in my group there are athletes who understand that with such a big risk, in case of an error you won’t earn much and don’t go doing quads. ”

Ted Barton, Canadian Commentator

“Female quads are a completely new phenomenon for figure skating, which you need to get used to. To study. Let's see how long those juniors who have now passed into seniors will be performing. Will they keep their hardest jumps.

We need to maintain balance. Let the girls develop, learn the most difficult jumps, but at the same time prevent excessive injuries. Sport should not become destructive, dangerous. ”

Tat'yana Tarasova, Merited Trainer of the USSR

“This is such a risk. But I'm still for those who break through the ceiling and go out into outer space. Not every boy does that. ”

Kim Yong-ah, Champion of the 2010 Olympic Games

“I don’t think we need quadruple jumps in women's figure skating. The technical equipment of the skaters is constantly growing, many of them jump triple jumps perfectly, I think they will be fine without quadruples.”

Daniil Gleikhengauz, coach in the group of Eteri Tutberidze

“If an athlete is ready for this, if he has the physical, jumping, capabilities, should he be stopped? And is there any sense in this, since he can? Slowing them down on purpose - that's illogical.”

Scott Hamilton, 1984 Olympic Champion

“Now, when so many young women are doing these jumps, it seems that the days of victories with the triple Lutz have passed. This is a natural development of our sport. Theese exciting times we live in.”

Il'ya Averbukh, vice champion of the 2002 Olympic Games

“In the world, women's single skating has always been 20 years behind men's, but the girls were catching up, this is normal, they always go a little later. Alexey Urmanov at the 1992 Olympics performed a quadruple Toeloop. Our girls jumped quads in 2017-2018. Here is the lag, but women's skating is catching up - this has always been so.

Now the time has come when the girls start jumping what boys have been jumping for 30 years. Everything is developing absolutely normal. Naturally, women are anthropometrically inferior to men. The leaders of men's skating now demonstrate all five quadruple jumps, in the women's - only the Toeloop, Sal'khov. But all this is the usual evolution of figure skating. ”

Tara Lipinski, 1998 Olympic Champion, NBC Sports Analyst

“It will be very difficult for the skaters who do not have these quads. Nobody, by nature, loves change, and this will be a radical change. I'm interested in how the balance between tech and artistry will turn out.

It cannot be such that when these girls reach a certain age, they simply can't do anything. But every skater has tjis period when she should learn how to balance weight changes and how to skate in her new body.

Javier Fernandez, bronze medalist at the Olympic Games 2018

“Some girls have already performed triple Axels and quadruple jumps. Sport seems to be moving in that direction. Japanese and Russian girls perform triple Axels again, now they are also American. Another Russian woman lands quads. This may be great, but we need to wait a few years to understand how good it really is.

The worst option for figure skating would be if a 14-year-old girl has to end her career because she would no longer be able to make her jumps. Can a girl jumping quads at 12 still perform them at 25? This question has yet to be answered.”

Tom Zakraichek, Vincent Zhou's trainer

“It takes a lot of work to learn a difficult jump, such as a triple Axel or a quad. Only special minds will want to do quads. ”

Sam Auxier, Ex-President of the American Figure Skating Federation, International Judge

“I think that several years ago, when Kihira performed the triple Axel, and Trusova practiced the quad Salchow at the Grand Prix final among juniors, it was an alarming signal that women's figure skating will change rapidly.”

Yelena Radionova, bronze medalist of the 2015 World Cup

“For the quads, one must be prepared not only with the body, but also with the head.”
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From: https://sport24.ru/news/other/2019-...e-gleykhengauz-tarasova-mishin-foto-instagram

LOL, Averbukh being sexist here?
 
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