Is Michelle given preferential treatment by USFSA?

Re: Responsibility

Eltamina,
I never held you responsible for the responses on the thread you started with a photo of Tara that said something like (I don't recall exactly), "Little Tara is all grown up..." and something about saving the world and Mooshu the Dragon and Egg Foo Yung and with General Tsao's Chicken you get Free Drink Seriously, at the time I thought you were using that photo to make fun of Tara, therefore <em>trying</em> to get more people to make fun of Tara. But I found out later that I was wrong, that are a fan of Tara's and were trying to do the same thing with the photo of Tara as you had done with one of Michelle. I remember that in the thread I posted that I thought you were making fun of Tara. I thought I had apologized for that in a PM, but in any case, I'm apologizing for it now. I should have given you the benefit of the doubt OTOH, if somebody is obviously baiting or bashing, I have no problem with people calling the person on it. I've just never seen ApacheApache do anything close to baiting or bashing and I don't certainly don't see it in the question that started this thread.
Rgirl
Edited to add: As per a certain promise, I really am continuing to "try"

ISU's 'rules'

Michelle's playing by the rules, I just wonder when the ISU is going to change those 'rules.' If top skaters that don't need the GP opt out, there will be fewer TV views, advertising, and, therefore, $ to the ISU. How will the ISU combat this trend? Maybe encourage judges at higher profile ISU sanctioned events to hold skaters who skipped out on the GP series down? I actually wondered if they'd do that to Michelle this year for not going to the GP final. They didn't (obviously), but I wouldn't put it past them with Speedy in charge. Sounds like a conspiracy theory, but I have this feeling that the ISU would do something like that if it would bring more $ into their bank accounts.

Re: Rgirl re Michelle

Apache,
You missed the big news! Rgirl was completely won over by the changes in Michelle's skating exhibited at this year's Nationals and Worlds. Rgirl even gushed about Michelle! I think most of my "Michelle was glorious!" posts are in the Nationals and Worlds folders, which I noticed are not on the list at the bottom of the page anymore, but I think they are still accessible from the main forum page. Plus I think I had some on "The Edge."

In any case, I never said Michelle's skating wouldn't do it for me; prior to '03 Nats and Worlds I said that, for various reasons, her skating didn't do it for me. I wasn't cancelling out the possibility that things might not change. And happily for me they did. I found the way Michelle skated at Nats and Worlds showed a whole new skater, one who I enjoyed very much. Plus I think she proved that her decision to leave Frank and do things "her way," with a new coach, an off-ice trainer, and working with different people to develop her choreography was a wise one. I've rarely seen an athlete who was already at the level Michelle was in fall '01 when she made the change improve as much as Michelle has. I know you're a fan of several other sports including tennis and no doubt you know that the most difficult improvement for an athlete is not the first 95% of getting to the elite level, it's any improvements made above the 95% mark. Even a 1% improvement at that level can be more difficult than the entire priot 95%. I think Michelle improved 2-3% and did so both technically and artistically. I won't go into all the details since others here have read them, but you should be able to find some of my posts that do, especially in the Worlds folder.

However, I didn't fully commit and said, "If Michelle continues skating like this, even Mean Ol' Rgirl will be a fan." I'm definitely a fan of Michelle from '03 Nats and Worlds, but I'm holding back on total fan dedication until next season. So I'm in fan limbo right now. Thus at least for me it would be nice if Michelle did the GP events so I could know what my Michelle fan status will be without having to wait until Nationals. But I'll be happy to wait and am anticipating the result may be even better than it was this year BTW, you make an excellent and balanced point by saying that by not competing, athletes lose their "match-edge," but that too much competition for experienced athletes can cause burn-out. IMO, Michelle was in danger of getting burned out--I believe the '02/03 season would have been her ninth at the senior level, not to mention her years as a junior--so I think she made a very wise decision both for the short and long term health of herself and of her skating by cutting back on her competitive schedule.
Rgirl

2002-03 was MK's 10th season

Rgirl: Actually, the 2002-03 season was Michelle's 10th at the senior level (her first Nationals and Worlds as a senior was back in 1994). So, yes, I think for her finding the training and competition schedule that keeps her competitive edge up without running the risk of "burnout" is likely very much an issue. Last year seemed to work out quite well for her -- it remains to be seen what (if anything) she plans to do for the coming season (after all, she hasn't even said that she will be aiming for Nationals) and what the outcome will be.

2002-03 was MK's 10th season

Michelle competed as a senior at 1993 Nationals (finished 6th), so 2003 was her 11th senior season domestically.

1993-94 was her first international senior season (Skate America and Worlds, and Goodwill Games if you count that as still part of the 94 season), but she also competed at, and won, Junior Worlds that year.

Re: ISU's 'rules'

tharrtell, you raise a good point about the money. The $30,000 first prize for a Grand Prix win should be enough all by itself to continue to attract a strong field. But if the ISU starts losing revenue for its whole package, as it seems to be on the verge of doing, it might not be able to offer such generous incentives. Kind of a catch 22.

Mathman

Re: ISU's 'rules'

Rgirl, no, I didn't miss the big news. I read your review of her performances at Nationals and Worlds and yes, you did say ther were fantastic and she had sold them to you. I was very glad. Did I tell you when I first visited GS I thought you were a Michelle basher? :lol: Sorry, sorry. As I read more and more of your posts I realised you weren't bashing her and you just thought her skating didn't (ok not wouldn't, I put words in your mouth, sorry) do it for you except Rush and Winter (yes I do recall). You did say you were waiting for the day when Michelle would impress you. It's from you that I realised skating is a highly subjective sport and I hate it. I like sports where the results are definite, like black and white.

Tharrtell:"Michelle's playing by the rules, I just wonder when the ISU is going to change those 'rules.' If top skaters that don't need the GP opt out, there will be fewer TV views, advertising, and, therefore, $ to the ISU. How will the ISU combat this trend? Maybe encourage judges at higher profile ISU sanctioned events to hold skaters who skipped out on the GP series down? I actually wondered if they'd do that to Michelle this year for not going to the GP final. They didn't (obviously), but I wouldn't put it past them with Speedy in charge. Sounds like a conspiracy theory, but I have this feeling that the ISU would do something like that if it would bring more $ into their bank accounts. "

I really doubt the top skaters will start skipping GP series because as I said it's not wise for athletes to compete less as it will take away their match-confidence. What Michelle did last season was very daring and risky and I really wonder if she can pull it off again this coming season. However, for Michelle it doesn't matter as it seems she just wants to put all her heart and soul into a few performances and not to skate for the titles. That's why she's willing to take the risk again because she simply doesn't see it as a risk anymore. So far as I know of, no top athletes have taken a "leave" and come back to win the major titles in any sport (I stand corrected).

Re: ISU's 'rules'

Apache - The bottom line here is that MK is a well-seasoned skater with a truck load of medals. Other than working on her 'new' routine before Nats and Worlds, it doesn't seem necessary that she continue with so many competitions.

IMO, MK seems to be enjoying her life and competitive skating plays a part in that, but I don't believe it is her whole life anymore. This could be a way of retiring (oh, perish the thought!) slowly from competitive skating.

Similarly, I also feel that IS (another well-seasond skater) is also going to bow out slowly. She too, has a truck load of medals. If she continues to skate in 2004, I believe she will skip the GPs. She has nothing to prove. She's done it all.

Ladies Figure Skating will never be the same without them.

Joe

Re: ISU's 'rules'

Joesitz, I agree with you that Michelle is enjoying her life now, and skating is a part of it ... but not all. Rather than this being her way of gradually getting out (oh no!), I think this may just be her way of staying in till 2006. By not competing so much and really focusing on those competitions she chooses to do ... plus, enjoying a full life outside skating ... might just be what she needs to get through the next 2-3 years. My personal opinion is that she would really like to stay till 2006, but maybe she feels burn-out is a real concern if she takes on a full load. Let's face it ... she doesn't need any more GP medals ... so, unless the rules change and she is required to do the GP ... this is probably a smart idea for her.
I just hope she does whatever she can to stay happy ... and keep skating!!! LOL

Re: ISU's 'rules'

mathman - I wasn't even considering the $ that goes into the skater's pockets! I was just thinking of the ISU's take. Prize money is definitely an incentive for most skaters, and that, in addition to the benefits of competing should keep the GP series filled with good skaters. Although, I can see, as Joe said, that well seasoned skaters like MK and IS wouldn't see as much of a need to compete in those competitions. I'm sure the GP series is pretty draining - especially once the novelty has worn off. For up and comers, it's exciting to be invited and it's a good chance to get noticed, but for the older gals, it's got to be a been there, done that type of deal.

Apache - I agree MKs decision to focus only on Nationals and Worlds was risky, and most skaters wouldn't opt for that route, but I also agree with whoever said that it might allow her to stick around for a bit longer. She knows what she's doing. She knows how to compete and perform. I just wonder how long she'll be allowed to play the game half time and be rewarded for it.

Re: ISU's 'rules'

I agree with Nymkfan -- and I hope that this isn't just wishful thinking -- that this is Michelle's strategy for continuing to compete for years to come. Just considering the physical stress alone of getting yourself up to peak condition many times a year, practicing dozens of repitions of your jumps every day, etc., is going to wear you out and heighten the risk of career-ending injury.

Tharrtell, about the ISU changing its rules to force skaters to compete, I think that's kind of a tricky proposition. Individual skaters are not members of the ISU, national federations are. The ISU usually lets the national federations set their own criteria for who they send to worlds and other ISU events. Even the rules that they do have, like age requirements, can be gotten around (for instance if the national champion and only good skater from some country is too young).

Mathman

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends

SkateFan5 and EllynK,
Thanks for giving the correct information on how long Michelle has been competing at the senior level. I knew Michelle had competed at Nationals in '93 and Worlds in '94, but my math was working on the Rgirl principle, ie, wrong--kind of the way it works for some judges

Nymkfan51 and Mathman,
ITA that Michelle is working very intelligently by reducing her competitive schedule and thereby avoiding avoid burn-out. As I said in response to Apache in another post, "By not competing, athletes [can] lose their 'match-edge,' but too much competition for experienced athletes can cause burn-out." As Michelle has often said this past season, she is trying to achieve balance in her life. Balance is important for any athlete, but for an athlete like Michelle who has been skating at an such a high elite evel for so long, balance is crucial. As if I need to say the following, but Michelle was 4th in the World in '95; seven World titles out of ten appearances, with her first win in '96 at age 16 (I think my math is correct to say that's a win rate of 70% ) and of the three she didn't win she took the silver; pluse two Olympic medals; and nine National titles since '95, and these are just her competitive achievements without counting GP wins, other events, and juniors--that's a heck of a long hard run.

When an athlete is young and on the way up, physically and mentally they can endure and recover easily. Generally speaking, one's endurance and recovery abilities are never stronger than they are up until the age of about 20. Also, as I've said on this forum before, burn-out does not just affect one's mental or emotional well-being. (Sorry to get a bit off-topic here; the mods can cut it if it's too far off ) It's a total physiological and psychological phenomenon. When I worked with athletes and dancers on training and rehab, I saw burn-out quite a bit especially with those who, depending on their sport, were reaching the higher age ranges, and among those who had the greatest self-motivation, and I find Michelle to be amazingly high in self-motivation.

In the exercise physiology and sports science lab I worked at, another grad student was studying the effects of overtraining and burn-out. It's one thing see an athlete not be able to perform up to his/her previous levels or hear an athlete describe how s/he just can't perform the way he used to. But it's really striking and sometimes frightening--at least it was for me--to see the actual physiologic changes burn-out can cause as they appear on test results. For example, once we were doing a maximal oxygen uptake treadmill test on one athlete for this student's study on burn-out. This treadmill test looks at the maximum amount of oxygen the person can "uptake" or get into his blood and also how the heart responds to maximally intense exercise. The athlete being tested was on an inclined variable speed treadmill and was instructed to gradually increase his running to his maximal ability. The difficulty of the test is increased by increasing the angle of incline on the treadmill and/or increasing the speed. The greater the results on the oxygen uptake, the better shape the athlete is in, at least in terms of aerobic metabolism. For these purposes, human aerobic metabolism is defined as the creation of energy through the combustion of carbohydrates and fats in the presence of oxygen._ The "aerobic zone" of exercise intensity is when you exercise at 70-80% of your maximum heart rate. (Sorry this is kind of complicated, but I do have a point:lol: )
_
Anyway, to watch this extraordinary athlete who was experiencing burn-out--he was a long-distance cyclist who was competing, teaching, and trying to finish his PhD--do this treadmill stress test where, when healthy and in shape, he would've performed at the most amazing levels, experience such problems that we had to stop the test because his heart rate started going crazy was distressing enough, even though the athlete didn't feel bad and in fact wanted to go on. And then to see the read-out on the tape, which shows the heartbeat pattern, go from the normal peaks and valleys to what looked like a bunch of scribbling, which means the person's heart is beating very abnormally, really drove home the point of how serious the physiologic problems burn-out can be. BTW, in these cases of burn-out, erratic heart rhythms like what we saw are usually do to low levels and/or serious imbalance of electrolytes and/or hormonal problems and of course we made sure the athlete was checked out by a cardiologist.

As I said, the athlete did not want to stop and said he felt fine, and I have no doubt he did feel find. The athletes usually don't feel the effects of burn-out until it's very serious. Because elite athletes are so self-motivated, they are in the most danger of burn-out because the very thing about their personalities that got them to the top is also what can make them push themselves to keep training and competing even when doing so is detrimental. I've often wondered if the relatively poor performances Maria B. gave in her last years of eligible competition after she won Worlds might have had something to do with burn-out. I also think Irina performed in a mildly burned-out state for most of this past season and was very wise to skip Worlds when her mother became ill.

As I said, I think Michelle is working very wisely by cutting back on some of her competitive events. Also, lest we forget, Michelle has many, many other commitments in terms of appearances for charity, sponsorships, and the like. I think that if Michelle continues to balance things so that she gets in enough training in order for her to perform at Nats and Worlds at the level she expects of herself--especially the improved training with Scott Williams, her off-ice trainer (anybody know his/her name?), and the people she's worked with on her choreography and presentation, which I think is evident from the way she looks, skates, and things she has said--and continues to make "having a life" outside of skating important as well as the mental/spiritual centering that seems obvious to me, that barring trouble from the skate gods, Michelle will continue to skate as well as she did this spring if not better. Having a plan to avoid burn-out, which I don't know if Michelle has but it seems like she does, is something few athletes, even elite ones, think about. But it's so important, I wish they all would--even for young athletes, although for them the problem is more about overtraining, especially with 3/3s for the ladies and quad combos for the men, and we all know who the casualties have been. Especially with the expected emphasis on 3/3s, elite skaters are going to be pushing their bodies like never before. I won't go into whether I think Michelle needs a 3/3--that's for another thread--but I really admire Michelle for listening to her instincts, ignoring the critics, and doing what I have no doubt will be best for her in the long run. Despite all the up and comers with their 3/3s, 3Axels, and quads and the mystery surrounding what will happen with the COP, I still haven't seen any ladies who have these jumps consistently; with several I don't know how puberty will affect their bodies and their skating; and I still haven't seen any of them come close to Michelle in overall presentation. So at least in my mind, I think it is entirely possible for Michelle to not only win a medal in Turin, but to win the gold. Bizarre things have happened when Michelle has been favored to win the Olympic gold and times such as this past season when she wasn't favored, she brought the house down. So I don't see why such a scenario in Michelle's favor to win the gold in Turin can't play out.

Apache,
Re: QUOTE: "It's nice of you to defend SashaFans.com but I just want to say that it's the same at MKF. Most of the posters are sensible Michelle fans, not bashers. When some posters bash, they are instantly rebuffed. The problem is, because MKF has 5400 members, it seems there are a lot of bashers there. The truth of the matter is, the percentage of bashers on every skater-specific forum is roughly the same."

Well said and ITA.
Rgirl--who intends for this to be her last post on this thread. Though you never know

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends

Great post rgirl!!!
ITA with you about Turino. I'm not saying that I think Michelle will win the gold there ... only that she could have a chance ... assuming she competes there. I had stated on another thread that I would actually like to see her NOT in the favorites role. Give that pressure to someone else. I like the course she's taking now, and I think the key for her is to remain happy. She's happier now than I've ever seen her.
BTW ... I agree about her needing a 3/3. I do think she will have one, or she probably won't be competing as an eligible anymore. She seems to have a good plan ... now if the skate gods can just stay out of her way! LOL

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends

Thanks, nymkfan51 Just wanted to make one thing clear. I didn't say that I thought Michelle would need a 3/3 in Turin. I briefly brought up the subect of 3/3s and said, "But that's a topic for another thread." No prob, I just didn't want to open a potential can of worms and get more off-topic than I already was. Thanks again, though
Rgirl

Re: Tying Up Loose Ends

Thanks for the clarification rgirl ... and your'e right about it being a topic for another time.

MK has a great record but ....

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>As if I need to say the following, but Michelle was 4th in the World in '95; seven World titles out of ten appearances, with her first win in '96 at age 16 (I think my math is correct to say that's a win rate of 70% ) and of the three she didn't win she took the silver; pluse two Olympic medals; and nine National titles since '95, and these are just her competitive achievements without counting GP wins, other events, and juniors--that's a heck of a long hard run. [/quote]rgirl: I'm always glad to see Michelle get credit for her amazing competitive record, but I think that you may have confused Michelle's World and National <em>medal</em>count with her <em>gold medal</em> totals. You are correct that she was 4th at Worlds in 1995 and that she has three silver medals from Worlds (1997, 1999, 2002). However, two months ago she won her FIFTH (not 7th) world title (1996, 1998, 2000, 2001, 2003). Similarly, Michelle now has 7 National titles (1996, 1998-2003); she has silver from 1994, 1995, 1997 so her total number of medals from Nationals is 10. If you want to put it in more statistical numbers, her World "win" average is 50% and for Nationals is 7/11 or 64% (her records for medalling at the two competitions are 80% and 91%, respectively -- pretty amazing).

Re: MK has a great record but ....

She was 15 when she won her 1st world title.

YOUNGEST WORLD CHAMPIONS
LADIES:
Competitor's Name Date of Birth Competitor's Name Date of Birth
1.Tara Lipinski (USA), 14 (1997) 6/10/82
2.Sonja Henie (NOR), 14 (1927) 4/8/12
3.Oksana Baiul (UKR), 15 (1993) 11/16/77
4.Michelle Kwan (USA), 15 (1996) 7/7/80
5.Sonja Henie (NOR), 15 (192 4/8/12
6.Carol Heiss (USA), 16 (1956) 1/20/40
7.Cecilia Colledge (GBR), 16 (1937) 11/28/20
8.Elaine Zayak (USA), 16 (1982) 4/12/65
9.Sonja Henie (NOR), 16 (1929) 4/8/12
10.Linda Fratianne (USA), 16 (1977) 8/2/60
11.Carol Heiss (USA), 17 (1957) 1/20/40
12.Christine Errath (GDR), 17 (1974) 12/29/56
13.Megan Taylor (GBR), 17 (193 10/25/20
14.Anett Poetzsch (GDR), 17 (197 9/3/60
15.Peggy Fleming (USA), 17 (1966) 7/27/48
16.Tenley Albright (USA), 17 (1953) 7/18/35
17.Barbara Ann Scott (CAN), 17 (1947) 5/9/28
18.Sonja Henie (NOR), 17 (1930) 4/8/12
19.Alena Vrzanova (CZE), 17 (1949) 1931*

MEN:
1. Donald MacPherson (CAN), 18 (1963) 2/20/45
2. Jan Hoffmann (GDR), 18 (1974) 10/26/55
3.Richard Button (USA), 18 (194 7/18/29
4.Richard Button (USA), 19 (1949) 7/18/29
5.Karl Schafer (AUT), 19 (1930) 5/17/10
6.Hayes Alan Jenkins (USA), 19 (1953) 3/23/33
7.Ondrej Nepela (CZE), 20 (1971) 1/22/51
8.Alain Giletti (FRA), 20 (1960) 9/2/39
9.Richard Button (USA), 20 (1950) 7/18/29
10.David Jenkins (USA), 20 (1957) 6/29/36
11.Tim Wood (USA), 20 (1969) 6/27/48
12.Karl Schafer (AUT), 20 (1931) 5/15/10
13.Manfred Schneldorfer (FRG), 20 (1964) 5/2/43
14.Hayes Alan Jenkins (USA), 20 (1954) 3/23/33

Men's list needs to be updated

Berthe's ghost: Interesting list -- but I assume that it was taken from something done prior to 1998. Both Alexei Yagudin (18, 1998; 19, 1999; 20, 2000) and Evgeni Plushenko (18, 2001; 20, 2003) need to be added to the list of youngest men's world champions. I'm not sure exactly where they would place in the list, but definitely in the top 5 youngest for their first wins. I'm not sure of the exact date of Alexei's 1998 win, but I believe it was only a few days after his 18th birthday on March 18. Also, Michelle Kwan might make the list for her second Worlds title in 1998, when she was still 17.

Re: Men's list needs to be updated

Yagudin belongs in the #2 spot; he was 18 and 2 weeks when he first won, McPherson was 18 and 1 week. Since there are multiple entries for the same skater, he should also fit in with the 19- and 20-year-olds for his 1999 and 2000 wins.

Plyushenko would go either before or after Hoffmann; his birthday is a week later in the year than Hoffmann's, but we'd have to check the date of their respective first World titles.

Re: Responsibility

Well, I didn't think I'd say anything. Once again, I have lied to myself:lol: .

Ok, I have read all of rgirl's posts in less than 5 minutes. A feat which deserves a medal. (rgirl, I am just messing with you. I found them exceptionally informative.)

I am NOT annoyed with Michelle Kwan not competing in the GP Series. As a matter of fact, I wish none of the elite skaters would compete in it so it would go away. But that's my preference.

I'm also going to address this issue of that "other" board. Just recently I posted several comments on the threads that rgirl made reference to. Adrian closed the thread. However, while he did it because it, towards the end, became insulting to one poster, basically me, he chastised me for stating an opinion along with a fact thus confusing people. I'm sorry. I rarely post there, but this is the first time I have felt insulted. And it wasn't aimed at a skater but at ME.

I like this forum. Sure, rgirl and I rarely agree, but at least no one here questions my honesty. Geez louise!

Before anyone thinks I don't place importance on doing the GP, I really don't. I don't think it's necessary because it's a very boring format. It wouldn't matter if Michelle skated in it or not. I've watched it maybe twice and ugh. Other people like it, but it is missing something to me.

Well, now I've had my say. Back to the job.:rollin: