Ambidextrous skaters

GwenR · Aug 23, 2016

I just read that figure skaters have a dominant direction that perform all their jumps in. I had previously assumed that skaters would mix their jumping direction up based on the choreography, but this does make sense. Are there any figure skaters who are ambidextrous and regularly perform jumps in both directions? And has anyone ever performed a quad in both directions in competition in a single performance? Thanks for any answers.

gkelly · Aug 23, 2016

I don't think anyone has ever performed a quad in both directions, full stop.

It's very very rare for a skater to be able to perform triple jumps or double axels in both directions, and I don't know that anyone has ever succeeded in competition.

Even doing double jumps or single axels both ways is rare, though I have seen it done.

Also rare but known would be spinning one direction and jumping the other way. And spinning both directions is somewhat less rare (especially for pair and dance spins because they're slower, and especially since IJS made it a feature).

Lindacrow · Aug 24, 2016

If I remember correctly, (Other than pair and dance) Satoko can spin in both directions and was at one point able to jump in both. I think she learned her technique in U.S. where she jumped clock-wise. When she moved to Japan, she was re-taught to jump counter clock-wise. But to my knowledge, there aren't any skaters who regularly jump in both direction in competition.

koatcue · Aug 24, 2016

Oh, new word for me!:hap93:

Vanshilar · Aug 24, 2016

Rohene Ward is someone who does a good job of jumping and spinning in both directions.

karne · Aug 24, 2016

GwenR, I think you underestimate the difficulty of changing directions.

As an example, here is Max Aaron attempting a clockwise single Axel. Max is naturally a counter-clockwise jumper with a huge, strong Axel that has plenty of speed and height and ice coverage. But as you can see, even someone as talented at jumping as Max struggles with the opposite direction - his clockwise Axel is tiny, slow, and skims the surface of the ice.

lyverbird1 · Aug 24, 2016

Lindacrow said:
If I remember correctly, (Other than pair and dance) Satoko can spin in both directions and was at one point able to jump in both. I think she learned her technique in U.S. where she jumped clock-wise. When she moved to Japan, she was re-taught to jump counter clock-wise. But to my knowledge, there aren't any skaters who regularly jump in both direction in competition.

Satoko was practising a double flip in "the other direction" during pre competition sessions in Boston this year. I'd love to see her try one in competition. If spinning in the opposite direction (like Satoko does brilliantly) counts as a level for the purpose of marking the spin, perhaps there should be a way of rewarding a skater who performs a jump opposite to the direction they normally jump in!

VIETgrlTerifa · Aug 24, 2016

Rohene Ward was the first person I thought of. Satoko was second due to her interesting history with having to learn how to skate in the opposite direction of her more natural direction. Also, Maia Shibutani is a clockwise skater as well, but skates with Alex as if more of a counter-clockwise skater (spinning counter-clockwise, twizzling counter-clockwise, choreographing routines and footwork sequences that seem more appropriate for a team where both partners skate in counter-clockwise direction, etc.).

jcoates · Aug 24, 2016

Michelle Kwan performed spins in both directions in some of her programs,most notably during her 1998 Lyra Angelica free skate.

John Curry did many of his non-flying spins in both directions and his flying spins and jumps counterclockwise. You can see that demonstrated in almost every program of his you can find on youtube. Here are a couple of examples.

1975 Worlds SP : https://youtu.be/o7lvV5EdaDA?t=111
1976 Olympics FS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djadlQLK_ow

Rudy Galindo is a clockwise singles skater, but did lifts, twists, throws, death spirals and pair spins counterclockwise but jumped and performed side by side spins clockwise when he skated pairs with Kristi Yamaguchi.

brightphoton · Aug 24, 2016

It really is extraordinary to see skaters spin and even jump in different directions. My whole arm cramps if I even write my name with my left hand. Doing things in the non-dominant direction is just so hard.

Sam-Skwantch · Aug 24, 2016

What I find interesting is that in snowboarding we spin both directions. One is called frontside while the other is called backside and when we first learn one we usually learn the other way shortly after. Most people learn both but frontside seems to be the hardest because you land blind. I'm not sure why a double jump for example done in the opposite direction shouldn't be something we actively encourage. The thing is a sport like snowboarding encourages expiramemtation and creativity of the elements where I think figure skating is more interested in cementing uniform standards. I'd be all for allowing jumps in the opposite direction that don't count toward Zayak rule which in many ways sort of acts to hold back the sport.

I guess my point is if people are learning 1080 (three spins) in both directions on snowboards over 60ft gaps then why aren't figure skaters capable of learning both? Just thought I'd share a different perspective.

mrrice · Aug 24, 2016

This is an interesting subject. When I trained as a dancer we were taught to turn, leap, and travel on both sides. At the end of class, we would learn a combination and we'd have to do it both sides. My teacher used to say "Honey, you never know where your choreographer was trained, so you need to learn to do everything you know in both directions." That's why I used to love Joannie Rochette. That girl could leap on both sides and they were equally spectacular.

VIETgrlTerifa · Aug 24, 2016

Maybe there is something to allowing skaters to be more experimental. Right now the system really is codified without ways to introduce new elements to be added to the code and given value. This is probably the most rigid skating has been, thanks in parts to IJS, but it sort of seems that way since 7 jumping passes, 3/4 spins, and one footwork sequence (and a spiral sequence or some other sequence) became the standard for the "free skate".

I actually don't mind the Zayak Rule because I'm all about well-balanced programs, but I do see how the quest for good construction and well-balance perpetuates this rigidity.

As to why more skaters don't learn how to rotate in opposite directions, maybe it's the nature of the sport. You can't really analogize it with snowboarding unless you're able to do doubles/triples on skates and know how they mechanics are different. We've seen skaters struggle simply spinning in the opposite direction with some exceptions. Ward did show it is possible to do some triples in the opposite direction but he wasn't very consistent with jumps in either direction, so it's hard to tell if skaters can master triples/quads in both directions.

Also, the system doesn't reward it either by naming it a different jump so skaters could actually do four triple lutzes as long as they are in different directions and thus get the high value of those jumps or by naming it as a feature for higher GOEs. I think the former would more likely encourage coaches to start developing that skill for skaters at a younger age.

gkelly · Aug 24, 2016

I think it would be good to find some way to reward jumping in both directions.

I think it would be unrealistic to expect triple jumps in both directions ever to become common.

If a reward for jumping both ways is built in, we'd probably see some reverse single jumps including single axels the first year, maybe double jumps a year or two after that, and then the reverse doubles would gradually become more common. Five to ten years after the reward is fierst introduced we might start to see a rare skater who is naturally ambidextrous attempting reverse-direction a triple or two. But I don't think it would ever become common.

Exactly what would become common would depend on the what the rewards are. There would need to be a way for tech panels to identify the reverse jumps, so (like spins) the rules might apply only to jump combinations or sequences with jumps in both directions, and the sequence rules would probably need to be revised to accommodate steps between opposite-direction jumps. If the reward for jumping both ways outweighs the sequence penalty, then sequences with reverse doubles would probably become common.

drivingmissdaisy · Aug 24, 2016

After watching Sanne Wever's OGM-winning balance beam routine, which featured spinning in both directions, it made me curious about this. Could a skater land a combination triple and then a double lutz in the opposite direction? Even without a bonus that would result in more points than a 2T.

gkelly · Aug 24, 2016

In theory yes.

In practice, it adds more risk without adding commensurate rewards. I don't expect it to happen with single jumps, let alone doubles, unless rewards are officially built into the system. And even if and when the rewards are there and are significant, I don't expect the vast majority of even elite skaters to ever be able to execute any triple jumps in their bad direction.

For comparisons with gymnastics, I would ask: Are there any gymnasts who do twists in both directions in their aerial tumbling? That would be much more comparable to jumping in both directions.

Same for divers or ski jumpers or any other athletes who twist in the air. Or ballet dancers doing double or triple tours en l'air?

mrrice · Aug 24, 2016

drivingmissdaisy said:
After watching Sanne Wever's OGM-winning balance beam routine, which featured spinning in both directions, it made me curious about this. Could a skater land a combination triple and then a double lutz in the opposite direction? Even without a bonus that would result in more points than a 2T.

This is an interesting thought. You know, it's different in ballet because if you lose your center and fall out of a turn, you don't go crashing onto rock hard, slippery, freezing ice. Before crashing into a solid wall called the boards. Unless there's a ton of bonus points involved, I don't think it's worth the risk.

Mathman · Aug 24, 2016

I believe that Sonia Henie did her Lutz jump clockwise and her other jumps and spins counterclockwise.

I really like the suggestion of special rewards for single jumps in the wrong direction. For footwork, the skater is expected to demonstrate the ability to turn in both directions. There could even be a separate box for a wrong way move. (Or a both-way move.)

By the way, do you remember the hue and cry on the Internet when Johnny Weir used the word "ambidextrous"? ("Bi-rotational" ? )

sabinfire · Aug 24, 2016

Mathman said:
By the way, do you remember the hue and cry on the Internet when Johnny Weir used the word "ambidextrous"? ("Bi-rotational" ? )

That always pops in my head when I see the title of this thread.

jenaj · Aug 24, 2016

Mathman said:
I believe that Sonia Henie did her Lutz jump clockwise and her other jumps and spins counterclockwise.

I really like the suggestion of special rewards for single jumps in the wrong direction. For footwork, the skater is expected to demonstrate the ability to turn in both directions. There could even be a separate box for a wrong way move. (Or a both-way move.)

By the way, do you remember the hue and cry on the Internet when Johnny Weir used the word "ambidextrous"? ("Bi-rotational" ? )

From John Curry's Wikipedia entry: "Curry's skating was unusual in that his jumps were performed counter-clockwise but most of his spins (except flying spins) were performed clockwise."

Ambidextrous skaters

GwenR

gkelly

Lindacrow

koatcue

Vanshilar

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

lyverbird1

VIETgrlTerifa

jcoates

brightphoton

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

mrrice

VIETgrlTerifa

gkelly

drivingmissdaisy

gkelly

mrrice

Mathman

sabinfire

Doing the needful

jenaj

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