The Underrotated Jumps of Evgenia Medvedeva

Blades of Passion · Oct 30, 2016

When will they start getting called? It's easier to be so consistent on all of your jumps when you don't actually jump, but rather pivot your toepick wayyyy around and spin off the ice. I will quote a post from the Skate Canada thread:

largeman said:
If Satoko Miyahara is the president of the Prerotated Toeloop Club, then I have no doubt Evgenia Medvedeva must take the vice president seat. Please take a look at the slo-mo gifs I made:

3F-3T in the SP (+1.4 GOE; judges gave +2s across the board)
https://imgflip.com/gif/1d7sw6

3S-3T in the FS (+0.4 GOE; only one judge gave negative GOE)
https://imgflip.com/gif/1d7tbf

How are these GOEs defensible when she can barely get two revolutions in the air?

This girl is not superhuman, she doesn't defeat the laws of physics. She has a technique that "cheats", in such a way that it creates the illusion of perfection. Her rotation and snap on the jump is so quick that most people won't notice a cheat. It just looks like a blur and a clean landing. But she does cheat her jumps and they need to be called out, by the technical panels.

puremagic · Oct 30, 2016

I didnt know that Evgenia so popular. After every competetion even after Russian Test Skate she always has personal thread. And always with bad context. Well, what can I say? Pray for your goddess, mortals.

nolangoh · Oct 30, 2016

Sadly the judges think "tanos = good SS". Just nonsensical. Maybe in near future we will see a helicopter arm air position and that will receive +3 GOE and 10.00 SS

https://youtu.be/VadIP4Wrm1w

brightphoton · Oct 30, 2016

If something is under-rotated at the end of the jump, it's easy to spot, but what are the real-time signs that something is pre-rotated?

It's easy to see pre-rotation when it's a slowed down gif, but I took a look at the real-time video and I can't tell it's pre-rotated. To me, at least rotation-wise, Med's jumps look as triple as Yuna's or Michelle's. :scratch2:

Med's short program at Skate Canada
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A4-s3oCfsE&t=1m56s

Yuna Kim at 2010 Olympics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoMkWIA2jVY&t=1m17s

Michelle at 1998 Nationals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdAv4NglqvE&t=1m33s

nolangoh · Oct 30, 2016

Besides her jumps, I am weirdly looking forward to see the PCS scoring in her next GP event, which is France, where she will face Mao.

Meoima · Oct 30, 2016

Blades of Passion said:
When will they start getting called? It's easier to be so consistent on all of your jumps when you don't actually jump, but rather pivot your toepick wayyyy around and spin off the ice. I will quote a post from the Skate Canada thread:

This girl is not superhuman, she doesn't defeat the laws of physics. She has a technique that "cheats", in such a way that it creates the illusion of perfection. Her rotation and snap on the jump is so quick that most people won't notice a cheat. It just looks like a blur and a clean landing. But she does cheat her jumps and they need to be called out, by the technical panels.

Where are you when Shoma Uno and Satoko do the same for their respectively quad and triples?

I have addressed the pre rotation too many times and most people ignore it. I remember you also protected Shoma and Satoko for doing the same "technique".

So when will ISU announce some rules about pre-rotation? i have waited for too long. Rumor has it that it will be after 2018?

gravy · Oct 30, 2016

Give her another year. Satoko got away with it until she suddenly didn't this season. :dbana:

Meoima · Oct 30, 2016

gravy said:
Give her another year. Satoko got away with it until she suddenly didn't this season.

Well it's just Skate Canada. I guess Satoko won't get called UR again at NHK.

NaVi · Oct 30, 2016

Tukt's 3T-3T is the same way. Rika's 3T-3T is the same way for the 1st 3T and a bit(just 20 degrees or so) better for the 2nd one.

gravy said:
Give her another year. Satoko got away with it until she suddenly didn't this season.

Prerotation had nothing to do with how Satoko's jumps were called in her SP... they were just objectively short of rotation just by looking at how she landed them. I remember pleading with people last year to stop talking about prerotation because it's pointless(they never listen) as quite a few of her jumps were objectively UR just looking at how they are landed.

Tolstoj · Oct 30, 2016

nolangoh said:
Sadly the judges think "tanos = good SS". Just nonsensical. Maybe in near future we will see a helicopter arm air position and that will receive +3 GOE and 10.00 SS

https://youtu.be/VadIP4Wrm1w

No. The arm can make your jump tight and uncomfortable: Stephan Lambiel said at TSL that he was terrible with the arm, Gracie said that many skaters are unable to jump with the arms, so there's the difficulty there.

Of course once you will master it, it won't change that much but you have to spend time to practice it.

largeman · Oct 30, 2016

NaVi said:
Tukt's 3T-3T is the same way. Rika's 3T-3T is the same way for the 1st 3T and a bit(just 20 degrees or so) better for the 2nd one.

Prerotation had nothing to do with how Satoko's jumps were called in her SP... they were just objectively short of rotation just by looking at how she landed them. I remember pleading with people last year to stop talking about prerotation because it's pointless(they never listen) as quite a few of her jumps were objectively UR just looking at how they are landed.

I made gifs from your two examples too.. to my eyes Liza's backend 3T was of exemplary technique - the left toe taps down and springs her into the air efficiently with minimal spinning on the toe pick, and by the time her body faces the camera she's had a quarter of a revolution in the air.

Rika's backend 3T did have more prerotation, but not as much as Zhenya's. And, both Liza's and Rika's backend 3Ts were landed backwards, whereas Zhenya's was short of rotation on landing. In total that amounts to a difference of ~90 degrees of rotation between what Liza/Rika achieved and what Zhenya achieved.

I don't know how feasible or practical it is to implement penalty for excessive prerotation in the scoring system. What is the exact definition, the allowable amount, and how to do it quickly and fairly in the limited time the tech panel and judges have... etc. I just hope everyone (including judges) can recognize the fact that Zhenya's jumps aren't that great and might not deserve those high GOEs. (Of course the same goes for Satoko, who still got +2s and +1s for her 3Lz-3T in the free skate, but her jumps have received their fair share of criticism.)

Li'Kitsu · Oct 30, 2016

Evgenias jumps were better last season, IMO. She seems to have more pre-rotation this season.

Generally, it feels like some coaches just decided to 'counter' the stricter UR rules the CoP has now by just shifting the missing rotation to the beginning of the jump. Evgenia, Satoko and Shoma are the most obvious examples that come to mind, but there are a lot more skaters with more pre-rotation... I really hope we'll get a rule change regarding this, and that the TP will have to have a look at the pre-rotation too.

And IMO, the really bad examples of pre-rotation are visible in real time - the jumps look 'swirly' and less powerful on the take-off often.

Sam-Skwantch · Oct 30, 2016

Just Say NO to swirly jumps!!!!

solani · Oct 30, 2016

As long as Shoma gets his 4F validated I can't see an issue with Evgenia's 3T's. Pre-rotated jumps won't get called anytime soon. And some of the tv commentators don't have a clue - I watched German Eurosport yesterday and I was a little horrified. They obviously didn't have a clue why any of those jumps that were clearly UR on the landing got called. I can't see them ever have an opinion on pre-rotation and obviously the audience doesn't care if even the commentators don't. It isn't fair, the good jumpers are getting robbed imho. My opinion is that the ISU has to change the criteria for GOE, height and easiness should be valued above anything else.

pETEs (Sasha Fan) · Oct 30, 2016

She's cheating, and the anonymous judging panels are biased AF.

Sam-Skwantch · Oct 30, 2016

pETEs (Sasha Fan) said:
She's cheating, and the anonymous judging panels are biased AF.

But judging isn't anonymous anymore :shrug:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gpcan2016/SEG004OF.HTM

luckyguy · Oct 30, 2016

puremagic said:
I didnt know that Evgenia so popular. After every competetion even after Russian Test Skate she always has personal thread. And always with bad context. Well, what can I say? Pray for your goddess, mortals.

Do you remember the 2014 threads about Adelina Sotnikova? It is the same disgusting theater.

DiamondDust · Oct 30, 2016

psusanne said:
As long as Shoma gets his 4F validated I can't see an issue with Evgenia's 3T's. Pre-rotated jumps won't get called anytime soon. And some of the tv commentators don't have a clue - I watched German Eurosport yesterday and I was a little horrified. They obviously didn't have a clue why any of those jumps that were clearly UR on the landing got called. I can't see them ever have an opinion on pre-rotation and obviously the audience doesn't care if even the commentators don't. It isn't fair, the good jumpers are getting robbed imho. My opinion is that the ISU has to change the criteria for GOE, height and easiness should be valued above anything else.

True... and saddening too.

whatif · Oct 30, 2016

Blades of Passion steering @#$% again. Is banned for this from other forums.

This thread needs to be closed.

Nathan13 · Oct 30, 2016

Say what you will, but would it really have made a difference in Skate Canada? I really don't think anyone got robbed. Kaetlyn had a fall and shaky landings, and was obviously quite pleased with the score she got. Satoko had URs and edge calls. Liza popped a jump and was extremely low on PCS. Even if she had gotten called out more, I don't see how it would have made a difference.

The Underrotated Jumps of Evgenia Medvedeva

Blades of Passion

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puremagic

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nolangoh

Steps and Spirals enthusiast

brightphoton

nolangoh

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Meoima

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gravy

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Meoima

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NaVi

Tolstoj

largeman

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Li'Kitsu

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solani

pETEs (Sasha Fan)

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