^ This! Averbukh's choreo for this program is the very definition of kitsch and some of the reactions this program generated (it's so provocative! it makes you think and feel!) only serve to reinforce this, IMO.
2016 Skate Canada Ladies FP
- Thread starter Alex D
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^ This! Averbukh's choreo for this program is the very definition of kitsch and some of the reactions this program generated (it's so provocative! it makes you think and feel!) only serve to reinforce this, IMO.
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- Mar 29, 2016
I'd have SO MUCH MORE respect for this program if it *were* trying to be (or to say something) provocative... It's mendacious to suggest that what's "controversial" here = the artistic statement Averbukh is trying to make about terrorism. I *wish* the reason this program were so controversial was because it challenged us / forced us to confront and grapple with his artistic commentary on the 9/11 tragedy. THAT = a lofty (and I do think worthwhile) artistic aim.
But let's be real... What people are finding controversial and "so discussable" = the too challenging/provocative and deep artistic vision communicated via the choreography. Rather, it's the glibness / LACK of depth —> it's using the very specific tragedy of 9/11 as a backdrop for a program that tells a shallow / gimmicky 'story' without meaningfully engaging with the tragedy itself... It's one thing to have a program that tries to communicate an abstract idea about tragedy in general (or even just tell a more obvious/literal story like the one in this program)... but when you make the program about a specific national tragedy by using actual media sound bytes from that tragedy, but then don't actually grapple with anything real/meaningful about 9/11 itself —> it makes the whole thing feel a bit hollow...
To put it another way: instead of making us feel something and breaking our hearts through the choreography itself, it's using the 9/11 tragedy as a shortcut to give the program an emotional heft—that it doesn't actually earn... And don't get me wrong —> lots of programs sort of 'cheat' in this way (i.e., exploiting things beyond the choreography / presentation to generate emotion; it's why we have warhorses like "Carmen" and "Phantom") —> but to use the 9/11 tragedy in this way (i.e., drawing on our outside memories / experiences of the tragedy) strikes many here as being offensively exploitative. A better and more artistically ambitious program would try to evoke in us those feelings through the choreography and skating itself—and it wouldn't need to rely on cheap tricks like using sound bytes from a specific recent tragedy to make us feel the feels...
So I sincerely don't think this controversy = just all part of Averbukh's profound artistic vision —> ha, unless perhaps he intended to provoke a very meta discussion about where we should draw the line in recent-historical-tragedy-themed programs between respectful/tasteful vs. offensive/exploitative...
[And just speaking of sincerity... For a program like this to work, you need not only a choreographer's artistic vision but also an authenticity and commitment from the skater to convey this kind of deeper message —> and while I do give Medvedeva much credit for commitment to the story she's telling, particularly in the compellingly-acted opening and closing moments... I also just don't buy that a primary aim with each performance of this FS = conveying to the audience some kind of deeper commentary on 9/11 or terrorism in general. (And I don't fault her for that at all —> I think she's so much better than the material she was given here)].
(Ha, and apologies for writing so much!! I promise to now go sit quietly in the corner for a while...)
Well. Thank you for your point of view. I'm gladly accept it, because you expressed it in a very good manner and explained why. We can argue a lot how and why Averbukh failed to deliver his message better or did he intentionally over exploited the sensitive (and very actual to modern days, like right at this moment) topic. But... It's all matter of personal taste, cultural backgrounds and many other stuff.. Me personally,... Well let's just say this choreography is far from being a genius piece. The same I can say about the whole concept of the profram and SFX used.
But hey, let's look at it from other perspective, the most important one: at the scores by judges. And these are trained people. Most of them go to ballet, opera, art expos and etc.. I don't want to sound like this should be a clear sign that this making Averbukh's program automatically "very good". But seems like the judges liked the message from Averbukh, which is very simple: screw the politics and terrorism, it's making good people suffer and worry about their friends and loved ones. May be FIS and judges think, yes, this program is silly, tacky and tear-jerking, but they marking it so high anyways. Perhaps they just as many of us want to keep the politics out their sports? At least out of figure skating?... If judges really hate this program they would find a reason to give a lower score. But nope, this cheesy program is received favorably by judging panel and FIS. Averbukh is known to be tricky and sneaky like this, he gives what people (or even more important: JUDGES) want to see in program. It's not deep choreography-wise, but hey, you want high-IQ choreography with wide spectrum of emotions and nuances - you go to ballet. Royal, Bolshoi, Mariinsky, NYC Ballet or ABT, but not the figure skating tournament. Figure skating is like a popcorn, while ballet is a refined French cuisine (not very adequate metaphor, but you got my drift). Figure skating is more mainstreamy, more accessible and easy to interpret like DWTS or similar. I guess FIS is trying to take Figure skating more towards pop-mainstream show biz, but not a boutique niche "beauty sport". Because show biz and more TV attention will bring more money to industry and feds. Parabeins to Averbukh understanding it. It's just my humble speculations tho.
Thanks again for you opinion. I value when person can calmly state his/her opinion and argumentatively explain why. *handshake*
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- Oct 30, 2012
I didn't bother to check out Yuka Nagai's LP earlier, but after watching that, it became my fav LP tonight performance wise. Even though she didn't score high, there is something very precious in her LP.
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- Mar 18, 2013
Hey, I'm a Jew and I would be ok with it. It's not like we should hate all Germans now for no reason. The problem was not Germany and not even ideology of nationalistic supremacy, but the dirty politics and unfair situation German nation was put into after WW1, which surely led to WW2. Med's program is not just about 9/11, but if you like hating - hate not the choreographer, not the coach, not the program and not the young skater, but hate terrorists and politicians who sponsoring them. Art is the most important thing that brings freedom and unity to our world, and yet you along some others are advocating against freedom of artistic expression and trying to introduce censorship. Trust me not everything on this planet is about you and you shallow bubble of small world you live in.I know you better than that, just look on this program from other people's perspective. They also lost their people in other countries tries due to terrorist attacks too.
It's not about it being offensive, though it surely is to some people. It's about it being a BAD program. It's about it being a farce. Something that tries to sell you as one thing (provocative and something that has artistic depth) when it is the exact opposite. It is below the level of something that I think a World Champion should EVER consider using as skating music, and it is SURELY below the level of a talent like Med.
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- Mar 15, 2014
The judges are doing nothing different. Satoko is still gettting +1 and +2 GOEs for her 3Lz-3T with a horrendously prerotated 3T while tech panel blithely ignores prerotations.
However, if Satoko Miyahara is the president of the Prerotated Toeloop Club, then I have no doubt Evgenia Medvedeva must take the vice president seat. Please take a look at the slo-mo gifs I made:
3F-3T in the SP (+1.4 GOE; judges gave +2s across the board)
https://imgflip.com/gif/1d7sw6
3S-3T in the FS (+0.4 GOE; only one judge gave negative GOE)
https://imgflip.com/gif/1d7tbf
How are these GOEs defensible when she can barely get two revolutions in the air?
I'm glad you're so happy with the judging. :noshake:
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- Mar 18, 2013
Well. Thank you for your point of view. I'm gladly accept it, because you expressed it in a very good manner and explained why. We can argue a lot how and why Averbukh failed to deliver his message better or did he intentionally over exploited the sensitive (and very actual to modern days, like right at this moment) topic. But... It's all matter of personal taste, cultural backgrounds and many other stuff.. Me personally,... Well let's just say this choreography is far from being a genius piece. The same I can say about the whole concept of the profram and SFX used.
But hey, let's look at it from other perspective, the most important one: at the scores by judges. And these are trained people. Most of them go to ballet, opera, art expos and etc.. I don't want to sound like this should be a clear sign that this making Averbukh's program automatically "very good". But seems like the judges liked the message from Averbukh, which is very simple: screw the politics and terrorism, it's making good people suffer and worry about their friends and loved ones. May be FIS and judges think, yes, this program is silly, tacky and tear-jerking, but they marking it so high anyways. Perhaps they just as many of us want to keep the politics out their sports? At least out of figure skating?... If judges really hate this program they would find a reason to give a lower score. But nope, this cheesy program is received favorably by judging panel and FIS. Averbukh is known to be tricky and sneaky like this, he gives what people (or even more important: JUDGES) want to see in program. It's not deep choreography-wise, but hey, you want high-IQ choreography with wide spectrum of emotions and nuances - you go to ballet. Royal, Bolshoi, Mariinsky, NYC Ballet or ABT, but not the figure skating tournament. Figure skating is like a popcorn, while ballet is a refined French cuisine (not very adequate metaphor, but you got my drift). Figure skating is more mainstreamy, more accessible and easy to interpret like DWTS or similar. I guess FIS is trying to take Figure skating more towards pop-mainstream show biz, but not a boutique niche "beauty sport". Because show biz and more TV attention will bring more money to industry and feds. Parabeins to Averbukh understanding it. It's just my humble speculations tho.
Thanks again for you opinion. I value when person can calmly state his/her opinion and argumentatively explain why. *handshake*
I get what you're saying. However, what some people (including me, somewhat) will draw from your conclusion is that mainstream, Popcorn = Less depth. While that may be true to an extent (there's only so much you can portray in 4 or 4.5 minutes as opposed to an entire opera/ballet. and you're only one person.)
I guess what I'm trying to say is that If she had portrayed a granular thing: ONE person's struggle with 9/11, instead of trying to portray this grandiose thing and these large themes that she obviously could not, because the program was so wrong, it may have been better. Access the big through the individual. However, they did not, and it comes off as... just horrendous to me.
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i read she got called on her lutz edge, but was also given goe points for it.....so scandalous.
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she is on her way to breaking it by Olympics or sooner than that. Apparently doing hopscotch on ice is what you have to do to prepare for the world record.
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I think they boosted Osmond's scores so they can give Medvedeva a huge score....she is obviously set up to win the OG. However, I am not saying that Osmond's skating is inferior to Evgenia's in ANY WAY. Like Ashley Wagner, I see her as a performer, fast across the ice, and her jumps are big.
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- Mar 18, 2013
Let us all be honest here, Alexz, you're engaging in "Reductio ad absurdum." No one here is calling for artistic license to be taken away. No one here is calling for Med's head.
However, we have a right to call out some crap program that exploits WITHOUT illumination. Art is exploitative, yes, but it ALSO gives insight into the subject that it is exploiting. This is JUST exploitation for the sake of points. There is NO redeeming factor. There is not insight into the human condition other than suffering. In that way, this is less than art.
BTW, Katerina Witt did this before her, did it BETTER, and did it AT THE OLYMPICS. If you want to do a poignant program on a subject that is hard, go look at her's, then go look at Med's. COMPLETELY different. "Where Have All The Flowers Gone" has all the emotional impact Averbukh and Med would WISH this program had. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GrhyrZOdtM
However, we have a right to call out some crap program that exploits WITHOUT illumination. Art is exploitative, yes, but it ALSO gives insight into the subject that it is exploiting. This is JUST exploitation for the sake of points. There is NO redeeming factor. There is not insight into the human condition other than suffering. In that way, this is less than art.
BTW, Katerina Witt did this before her, did it BETTER, and did it AT THE OLYMPICS. If you want to do a poignant program on a subject that is hard, go look at her's, then go look at Med's. COMPLETELY different. "Where Have All The Flowers Gone" has all the emotional impact Averbukh and Med would WISH this program had. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GrhyrZOdtM
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Skate Canada doesn't give a flying **** about Evgenia. They gave Osmond that monster score because she was the home town girl and they wanted to give her those inflated marks. Evgenia didn't have to be there for Osmond's marks to happen, it could have been anybody else
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- Jan 27, 2013
Thought you said on the Dance LP Thread, you were outta here NAOTMAA...found more earth that needed scorching, eh? Never mind that most posters here today feel that the international judges panel, got the Women's podium, right.
Re your conspiracy theory above, do you ever read what you write ...please.
Thought you said on the Dance LP Thread, you were outta here NAOTMAA...found more earth that needed scorching, eh? Never mind that most posters here today feel that the international judges panel, got the Women's podium, right.
Re your conspiracy theory above, do you ever read what you write ...please.
The podium was right even if the scores weren't. I was responding to the idea that Osmond's scores were inflated just so the could inflate Evgenia's. Kaetlyn was going to get inflated scores no matter who the competition was because she was the home town girl just as Ashley did at Skate America and just as the Russian girls are bound to get at their own.
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- Dec 1, 2015
well....not a fan of Osmond, but I can see her potential.....I remember she did a tango program a couple years back? that I was impressed with by her performance. i like alain chartrand for canada
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- Mar 29, 2016
We can just agree on the obvious fact that program could have been better with a better thought through soundtrack. However, I dig the message and can't understand how it can be viewed as offensive. It's rather a very actual to the current issues in the world. And, yes, if Averbukh's message is "please stop violence" he picked the right topic and right metaphor, obvious symbol of the most tragic terrorist attack. Not because it's the biggest or the most tragic one, but because it was made such a symbol by our culture and media, so many people can relate to it. Not just Americans, but many other nationalities. So, it's a good idea and good tribute: the young girl waves goodbye to her husband/boyfriend/father/brother/friend (is it at home or at an airport, we don't know, it's upto personal interpretation) and some time later she sees all this horrendous newscasts and sounds. Hey we all been there. Almost the whole planet seen it, live, uncensored, with the same sounds and vivid explicit images and video snippets on our TVs. And the girl starts worrying about the person she just said goodbye without knowing would it her last goodbye, she can't find the place to calm down and restlessly rushes through variety of emotions ranging from hope, worry and fear. She runs, spins and jumps out her mind with anxiety. Until she receives that phone call and we left to guess was it a good news or bad ones. This is how i see it at least. Its really easy and straightforward. The whole concept is good. Now it's another story how it choreographed and performed. Could it be better? Yes. But judges loved it anyways, because I think they like that it sends such an important social message out there: please stop violence.
Ok. Lets draw anlogies here. Jsut for giggles. What message tries to send a girl who trying (or better yet: struggling) to portray a Firebird which looks more like a frozen chicken than a proud beautiful firebird caught by obnoxiously daring young peasant? Don't you think Russians can get offended by such poor interpretation of one of their popular farrytale from their ancient mythology. Firebird is a firebird, not the chaotic windmill as it sometimes portrayed.
The score by one of the most genius Russian composer - Stravinsky - deserves better interpretations and choreography. The great composer whose work was way ahead of his time, whose music shaped our modern electronic music, like house, trance, techno and etc. Instead of Firebird Russians see this - a frozen chicken? Would you expect them to be offended. Fair logic? =) Or someone making a ballet piece to Anastasia myth and tragic story which is so sensitive to all modern Russians, when bolsheviks executed all Royal family, and only Russian princess Anastasia had allegedly (more like a myth) miraculously escaped and lived somewhere under fake name bellow the Soviet radar. It's one of their national great tragedy. Yet. Royal Ballet doing their version of ballet based on this events (the story of Anastasia). I think it's either McMillan or Wheeldon. We don't expect Russians to boycotting, booing or picketing in front of Royal Opera House, do we? And I am sure we can find more modern and recent examples and analogies like this. Btw, I heard recent cinematographic interpretation of War and Peace by BBC (was it 5 or 6 episode series in total?) was very favorably received by Russians. They said it get the essence, mentality and feel of Russia at that time, like when Moscovites were leaving the city the day before Napoleon was about to seize the city, they not only left their dear homes and estates behind, but set them on fire in desperate state of mind of helplessness and left in agony further east. Yet genius military man Napoleon was silly waiting the whole day for obedient and submissive citizens of Moscow to bring him the keys to the city as symbolic gesture of submission. You gotta be Russian to understand that barbaric act in the eyes of westerners of that time. What could have been easier: bring the keys to Napoleon, pledge submission and host French nobels, officers and soldiers in Moscow for a while, and pay some sort of taxes and contribution later on as a losing side. And keep living a cozy life in your cozy warm houses in Moscow. But nope, Russian mentality is different: it's better to burn your own house and all your expensive belongings when share it or give it to invaders. You gotta be Russian to understand this logic, but that how they are: they would rather starve to death than bow down. Heh. And this BBC's version got it right in the TV interpretation. Russians did not even lost their sleep over controversial insinuation of incest between brother and sister in the British version, even though to my knowledge it was not in the Tolstoy's book.
Or when someone skates to Russian Tschaikovsky, Musorgsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Borodin, Rachmaninov, Prokofiev, Shostakovich, Scriabin, Glinka, Stravinsky, Schnittke or many other, we don't really expect Russians to get offended when skaters don't make a "proper interpretation" of particular music piece be it about struggle against tsarism, Stalin's repressions, gay rights and acceptance by society in old Russian Empire (see Tchaikovsky story) or other tragical event of their past or recent times. Would Russian gays be offended when the Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker music would be skated in "unsensitive and tacky way" and without proper consideration of depth of the music like Waltz of Flowers is actually his desperate cry for his dream, and the whole ballet is about transformation into somebody he really are and desperately wanted to be, despite of disapproval by society of those times. Yet we see another performance to yet another Tchaikovsky warhorse which looks might look like rather cheerful and upbeat choreography, which might seem strange because even though Nutcracker sounds like a very melodic, cheerfully and catered for kids, but there is a very good reason why the almost all of the score is composed in Minor.
Would we expect Russian gays to get offended by improper interpretation of Tchaikovsky too? Or by "improper" interpretation of music about tragic life of Prokofiev and Shostakovich under the tyranny of Stalin? Or Would American be offended if Russians would be dancing in "improper" way to rock'n'roll, swing, Madonna or Muse? Russians certainly giggle when westerner tries some Russian folks style dances, but they don't getting so vocal on silly forums and don't loose their sleep over that. 
My point is simple: in the art and so called "beauty sport" such figure skating everything us up for grabs and interpretation. How it is successful and touching as an art is the whole another story. High marks and praise from judges are probably not for a quality of Averbukh's program, but may be it's just a message from FIS and judges to all coaches and skaters (international panel, I must say): "Hey, guys, this Averbukh's program might looks exploitive and tacky, but this is the direction we want all of you to go. The more talented people will be pushing there the less tacky and pretentious it will get over time. We, as figure skating communtiy, need to be more actual and contemporaneous with currents, may be to send a good social message, a simple and nice story. No reason to butcher Tchaikovsky or Rachmaninov all the time." Just my humble speculations. There is probably a good reason why modern music and voiceovers were made allowed. The FIS is trying to stay current, modern and more popular among average Joes aka consumers. No reason for a young girl to pretend to be beautiful ballerina to portray a Firebird, if as a result the public sees NOT the nice performance on the greatest music by Igor Stravinsky and revolutionary ballet choreography by Fokine or Dyagilev, but Gracie's "frozen chicken" instead. No disrespect to undoubted talent of Ms Gold.
I know Russian probably giggle when they see such interpretations of Firebird.
Especially when Russians are known to be so anal when it comes to saving their traditions and culture to pass it to future generations. They carry every little detail and nuances by having older generation of performers/dancers training young ones by meticulous coaching and countless hours of rehearsing until every little thing will be right. Compare just this small video of tutoring by great Andris Liepa with some of the multiple Firebirds we saw in the recent decad: http://youtu.be/ZIE0pJEgs3URusskie probably giggle to all our "frozen chickens", because they know the standards, but they don't get offended if non-Russian performer or choreographer are not delivering it in a god way. So why not allow Averbukh to take a swipe at 9/11 tragedy and see how it develops and comes out. Judges certainly excited, as it's at least a fresh breath for them after all those countless warhorses in the last 50 years or so.
The more understandable figure skating will get to average consumer the better (and more $$ into sport too), the quality of all "modern" performances will get better. Ashley, Keytlin and Zhenya are pushing it forward good. I don't mean that classic music, or jazz, or musicals should go away from this sport, but ideally it should be like 50/50, not like approx 80/20 as it is now. And trust me most judges are very knowledgeable in ballet and they would rather go to ABT, Bolshoi, Mariinsky or ROH to see professional ballet dancers then sit through yet another warhorsey "frozen chicken". Judges/FIS are sending the subliminal message: programs should be more interesting, fun and help FIS to reach more people. It's simple as that. Why Ashley Wagner, Averbukh and few others got it, and others don't.... hmmmmmThis is approximately how I see it.
The program could be better, yep. But
how good Averbukh is (or is not) we will see in Olympic year, when it matter the most. Last Olympic he was right on the money with his Shindler List and Yulia. Everything felt right into places back then I must say. For a now, this year, he just making yet another controversial and provocative splash with this Med's program of his, but judges dig it. Go figure.
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- Mar 29, 2016
Dully noted. And that's your personal point of view to which you are totally entitled to. So do the judges who clearly can't see it your way. As they say: the score is up: loud and clear, in black on white. If it's bad and farce of a program, then the judges (trained and competent international people) are ..what?... blind or corrupt? =) Are you challenging the competency of Figure Skating judges?
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- Mar 29, 2016
I'm not. I'm really am not. Even though I can admit to dialectical trolling sometimes for the purpose of my own entertainment. :yes:
Art is a very subjective substance, there is really no limitations or borders one can put it into. We can discuss it long and thoughtful, but its 10:15pm here and I gotta hit the sack. Thanks for your opinion.
*waves goodbye*
ETA: and thanks for sharing this video.
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I'm very uncomfortable with the subject of Evgenias program, the sirens, the voices came out very strangely and I feel Evgenia is above using stuff like that to elicit emotion from people. When the voices came on there were some people looking around because they weren't sure at first if it was part of the program.
They should take out voices and sirens and change it to someone seeing their loved one off to the war. Don't make the story so specific, Evgenia can probably make it work.
I just find that there's a lot of subtlety mixed in with her intensity in Evgenias skating but her programs and choreography are so literal when it doesnt need to be. If Averbukh gives her another little girl program she should fire him, she's worthy of better.
They should take out voices and sirens and change it to someone seeing their loved one off to the war. Don't make the story so specific, Evgenia can probably make it work.
I just find that there's a lot of subtlety mixed in with her intensity in Evgenias skating but her programs and choreography are so literal when it doesnt need to be. If Averbukh gives her another little girl program she should fire him, she's worthy of better.
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- Mar 18, 2013
Ok. Lets draw analogies here. Just for giggles. What message tries to send a girl who trying (or better yet: struggling) to portray a Firebird which looks more like a frozen chicken than a proud beautiful firebird caught by obnoxiously daring young peasant? Don't you think Russians can get offended by such poor interpretation of one of their popular farrytale from their ancient mythology. Firebird is a firebird, not the chaotic windmill as it sometimes portrayed.
No. One is a REAL tragedy, using the deaths of others, to create BAD, contrived, "art." The others (I didn't put them all on here for size's sake) are either reinterpretations of art, or just bad reinterpretations of art.
One actually happened. The others you point out are pieces of art.
The reason Lipnitskaya's Schindler's List program worked is because she was portraying a character from that movie, and from that, the Holocaust. The reason Witt's program worked is because she collaborated in the entire program, and it was HER idea. She skated at Sarajevo and wanted to skate to commemorate her time and the people there who were embroiled in civil war. Med's program is not that. It is not explanatory, it is nothing but exploiting a tragedy as a vehicle to win figure skating competitions. Using the sounds and voices of a tragedy to score points.
I'm all for people to stop butchering great Russian composers' amazing creations. However, while tacky and offensive TO TASTE, it is not exploiting AN ACTUAL EVENT WHERE PEOPLE DIED, and not even in a refined way, with no redeeming quality, other than Medvedeva's admittedly good skating, to win a competition.
You realize that there are one or maybe two places where Judges SHOULD deduct for a bad program? Interpretation and Choreography. Just because the score for that absolutely atrocious program was high, doesn't mean it was in good taste, necessary, or right.
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