2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

mrrice · Nov 7, 2017

frida80 said:
She's going for a triple axel. Typically when skaters are going for very difficult jumps like this, there are very few transistion. Especially since she needs a lot of spend and needs to concentrate on the technique.

Skating skills encompasses a lot more than just one footed skating. It may be better to find a video that explains that and provides examples of good and bad skating skills. I've seen it before, but I cannot remember the title.

I think the speed required to get yourself up and rotating for a 3/A needs to be considered. It's one thing to do a double axel out a spread eagle but, it's so much harder to get that extra rotation in without speed. Here's Tonya's 3A from Skate America. You can see that she basically does crossovers to build speed and then rides her edge until she jumps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOP3Dj0DraQ

Mayumi1990 · Nov 7, 2017

frida80 said:
She's going for a triple axel. Typically when skaters are going for very difficult jumps like this, there are very few transistion. Especially since she needs a lot of spend and needs to concentrate on the technique.

Skating skills encompasses a lot more than just one footed skating. It may be better to find a video that explains that and provides examples of good and bad skating skills. I've seen it before, but I cannot remember the title.

That’s awesome if you can find it so we can compare with the top skaters. 2 footed skating and crossover galore indicates weak egdework and leg power. I say Kostner have the same content as Nagasu but her strokes and edgework are clearly better just the fact that she glides and moves better. To me Gracie Gold is an interedting case because i feel like she is getting all her power and edgework from ankles instead of her leg/knees. I dont think its bad, in fact i find it fascinating and awesome. Karen chen to me is the most natural and has the best potential. She just need to milk the code so she can rack up points. I think Mao Asada said before that to have a solid SS you should also have a solid stamina.

frida80 · Nov 7, 2017

I found some videos on skating skills. It's not just one, but several that talks about each component of skating skills. I do wish they put them in one long video instead.

overview: https://youtu.be/bu1TFFHNZ7o
Balance: https://youtu.be/NzcS_HlgLKQ
Flow: https://youtu.be/myHKTKu4j6U
Sureness: https://youtu.be/hvSqpY2b_I8
Speed: https://youtu.be/emOBxsV3atI
Direction: https://youtu.be/TPWzMvwWdPY

And they have examples of all of good, average and weak SS.

Good skills: https://youtu.be/AD2CQ2mLETY

Average skills: https://youtu.be/0g5OmtQ1f-E

And weak skills: https://youtu.be/V7bTA7lgDQ0

Mayumi1990 · Nov 7, 2017

I have to agree with everybody that right now SS is the least problem of Mirai. Girlfriend needs to land her 3A and her other jumps. Japanese fans have obsession with the 3A so hopefully the positive energy translate to Mirai.

Mayumi1990 · Nov 7, 2017

frida80 said:
I found some videos on skating skills. It's not just one, but several that talks about each component of skating skills. I do wish they put them in one long video instead.

overview: https://youtu.be/bu1TFFHNZ7o
Balance: https://youtu.be/NzcS_HlgLKQ
Flow: https://youtu.be/myHKTKu4j6U
Sureness: https://youtu.be/hvSqpY2b_I8
Speed: https://youtu.be/emOBxsV3atI
Direction: https://youtu.be/TPWzMvwWdPY

And they have examples of all of good, average and weak SS.

Good skills: https://youtu.be/AD2CQ2mLETY

Average skills: https://youtu.be/0g5OmtQ1f-E

And weak skills: https://youtu.be/V7bTA7lgDQ0

Yeah i’ve seen this video before. Thank you so much!

frida80 · Nov 7, 2017

Mayumi1990 said:
Yeah i’ve seen this video before. Thank you so much!

The odd part is I would’ve switched the good and average because my personal preference is flow and balance. Yuka has tremendous speed for sure though.

drivingmissdaisy · Nov 7, 2017

frida80 said:
And weak skills: https://youtu.be/V7bTA7lgDQ0

Sigh. Poor Surya :laugh:

frida80 · Nov 7, 2017

drivingmissdaisy said:
Sigh. Poor Surya

Even in retirement she can’t get a break. :sarcasm:

temadd · Nov 7, 2017

frida80 said:
I found some videos on skating skills. It's not just one, but several that talks about each component of skating skills. I do wish they put them in one long video instead.

overview: https://youtu.be/bu1TFFHNZ7o
Balance: https://youtu.be/NzcS_HlgLKQ
Flow: https://youtu.be/myHKTKu4j6U
Sureness: https://youtu.be/hvSqpY2b_I8
Speed: https://youtu.be/emOBxsV3atI
Direction: https://youtu.be/TPWzMvwWdPY

And they have examples of all of good, average and weak SS.

Good skills: https://youtu.be/AD2CQ2mLETY

Average skills: https://youtu.be/0g5OmtQ1f-E

And weak skills: https://youtu.be/V7bTA7lgDQ0

For the most part the narration doesn't really help the viewer to understand what it's showing. I did not find them very helpful. The difference between the weak ss (I still love Suriya) and average was clear but the difference between the average and good was not as clear to me

Mayumi1990 · Nov 7, 2017

frida80 said:
The odd part is I would’ve switched the good and average because my personal preference is flow and balance. Yuka has tremendous speed for sure though.

It is indeed confusing. It would have been nice if they specifically pointed out what moment/ part are the weak ones. I have to admit when i first saw the video, i got the impression that having certain body type also helps SS like a more stocky muscular body equates bad SS. Obviously i was wrong.My general rule now is that having good flow and egde on a hard content program indicates good SS because it seems like that is what the judges have been doing

matcha · Nov 7, 2017

Kittosuni said:
Just watch this SP of Mira Nagasu. She starts her program at 00:44 and did pretty much crossover and 2foot skating until 01:31. That's 47 seconds. What's frustrating is that it doesnt feel like they are even trying to conceal it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwUTD3MQPhc

I'll post when i get the time

Mirai does have a terribly empty first half of a program. It was emphasised so much more since she skated before Evgenia to the same music. :slink:

frida80 · Nov 7, 2017

temadd said:
For the most part the narration doesn't really help the viewer to understand what it's showing. I did not find them very helpful. The difference between the weak ss (I still love Suriya) and average was clear but the difference between the average and good was not as clear to me

I agree. I would like the narrator to explain exactly what makes the average skater average and what makes the good skater better. It doesn’t help that Yuka has awkward jumps that day, which makes her sureness and balance questionable.

I like the sureness example with the side by side ice dancers best. You can see the deep edges, quick knee action, and better balance and flow.

R.D. · Nov 7, 2017

skylark said:
Your question has been knocking around in my head. I really and truly believe that there's something about the sport as it was practiced, seen and judged in the 6.0 era that appealed more to Americans. I think that's why audiences have fallen off so drastically, and that it's somehow connected to why our women did so well previously. It's that marriage of athleticism and artistry, performance and emotion, that somehow speaks to the strengths of women and what the culture values, and captures our collective imagination.

There's something to this, I think. It has been brought up in the past - whether the US system structure was designed primarily for 6.0, if USFS was slow to adapt to the COP, etc. I think at least on the fan level, you see US audiences generally preferring skaters who display "emotional brilliance" ("artistry" or expression, if you will) during a skate to those who display technical brilliance (the skater who can do both is virtually nonexistent), and perhaps this attitude may even permeate(?) into the culture. Now, I'm not part of "the system" so to speak, so what I'm about to say is merely from an outside observer's point of view. Anyone "in the system" correct me if I'm wrong, or offer alternative insights. More and more, the current judging system favors the technical brilliance side (hence the focus on UR jumps, spin levels, etc.) and yet, I constantly see comments that so-and-so "has not matured" or whatever. Emotional brilliance is nice and all, but it's the technical side that gets points, and if the technical is not encouraged, or is overlooked in favor of what I hear people calling "the full package", then I think the status quo will remain for the foreseeable future. We need to think more Gracie Gold and less Karen Chen*. The judges liked Gold for a reason and scored her well, despite her consistency issues. Another aspect is the mental toughness/preparation part of it, which is a topic in and of itself. But that part can't really be coached or taught (perhaps it can be reinforced though through more competition???).

*DISCLAIMER: This is not to look down on Chen's future, but to make a point that USFS (and the underlying culture) should not only train and encourage solid skating skills and jumping technique and not get so wrapped up in the presentation side of things that it comes at the expense of the others...

R.D. · Nov 7, 2017

Mayumi1990 said:
I have to agree with everybody that right now SS is the least problem of Mirai. Girlfriend needs to land her 3A and her other jumps.

BOOM! Nuff said.

Globetrotter · Nov 7, 2017

frida80 said:
I agree. I would like the narrator to explain exactly what makes the average skater average and what makes the good skater better. It doesn’t help that Yuka has awkward jumps that day, which makes her sureness and balance questionable.

I like the sureness example with the side by side ice dancers best. You can see the deep edges, quick knee action, and better balance and flow.

Actually, the difference between very good vs average vs weak SS is clear as day if you watch the skates live. Don't just watch Yuka just for the landings on her jumps for SS - that is not what SS is about. Watch how she moves in between elements. It is the glide, the smoothness, the surety of turns and how she can vary speed - not just SPEED. Also, you will notice very apparently the deep lean she achieved on the ice - this is apparent even on the video. Of course Yuka is an exception, not the norm - only Patrick Chan comes anywhere close. If you ever had the chance to watch Yuka skate live, you will be amazed also at just how quiet (almost like floating) her blades sound on the ice despite her speed.

US single skater ladies generally tend to be fairly average on their SS, again excepting M Kwan (great balance and edge) and Gracie Gold (great at using edges to vary speed and turns). Still, the best are rightly as you say, ice dancers. Just watch Scott Moir, Guillaume Cizeron and Meryl Davis - awesome brought to life.

frida80 · Nov 7, 2017

Globetrotter said:
Actually, the difference between very good vs average vs weak SS is clear as day if you watch the skates live. Don't just watch Yuka just for the landings on her jumps for SS - that is not what SS is about. Watch how she moves in between elements. It is the glide, the smoothness, the surety of turns and how she can vary speed - not just SPEED. Also, you will notice very apparently the deep lean she achieved on the ice - this is apparent even on the video. Of course Yaka Sato is an exceptional - only Patrick Chan comes anywhere close. If you ever had the chance to watch Yuka skate live, you will be amazed also at just how quiet (almost like floating) her blades sound on the ice despite her speed.

US single skater ladies generally tend to be fairly average on their SS, again excepting M Kwan (great balance and edge) and Gracie Gold (great at using edges to vary speed and turns). Still, the best are rightly as you say, ice dancers. Just watch Scott Moir, Guillaume Cizeron and Meryl Davis - awesome brought to life.

I just meant the jumps are distracting. With both Michelle and Patrick I can see the quality clear as day. It’s like both glide on air. A perfect blend of speed, balance and edge quality. Maybe it’s the video quality. I found a HD of Michelle at worlds in 2002. http://www.mangahere.co/manga/onimiya_sensei_no_kisu_ni_wa_sakaraenai/ I can see all elements of skating skills here.

I live in a place that practically devoid of high level skating. Sigh... I am so deprived... :drama:

temadd · Nov 7, 2017

Globetrotter said:
Actually, the difference between very good vs average vs weak SS is clear as day if you watch the skates live. Don't just watch Yuka just for the landings on her jumps for SS - that is not what SS is about. Watch how she moves in between elements. It is the glide, the smoothness, the surety of turns and how she can vary speed - not just SPEED. Also, you will notice very apparently the deep lean she achieved on the ice - this is apparent even on the video. Of course Yaka Sato is an exceptional - only Patrick Chan comes anywhere close. If you ever had the chance to watch Yuka skate live, you will be amazed also at just how quiet (almost like floating) her blades sound on the ice despite her speed.

US single skater ladies generally tend to be fairly average on their SS, again excepting M Kwan (great balance and edge) and Gracie Gold (great at using edges to vary speed and turns). Still, the best are rightly as you say, ice dancers. Just watch Scott Moir, Guillaume Cizeron and Meryl Davis - awesome brought to life.

Perhaps you should narrate the videos for ISU. I learned much more form you than all of those videos

temadd · Nov 7, 2017

Mayumi1990 said:
I have to agree with everybody that right now SS is the least problem of Mirai. Girlfriend needs to land her 3A and her other jumps. Japanese fans have obsession with the 3A so hopefully the positive energy translate to Mirai.

Absolutely. It's clear that good technical performances magically raise PCS scores quite often without good reason. So Tech comes first for Mirai. She's been around long enough that the judges will raise her PCS if she lands that axel AND other triples.

brightphoton · Nov 8, 2017

frida80 said:
I just meant the jumps are distracting. With both Michelle and Patrick I can see the quality clear as day. It’s like both glide on air. A perfect blend of speed, balance and edge quality. Maybe it’s the video quality. I found a HD of Michelle at worlds in 2002. http://www.mangahere.co/manga/onimiya_sensei_no_kisu_ni_wa_sakaraenai/ I can see all elements of skating skills here.

I live in a place that practically devoid of high level skating. Sigh... I am so deprived...

Ah yes, Kusunoki Moka's crush on Onimiya Itsuna really shows good edges and speed. :laugh:

Globetrotter · Nov 8, 2017

temadd said:
Perhaps you should narrate the videos for ISU. I learned much more form you than all of those videos

Lol, you are too kind. I am just an amateur SS uber who got hooked after seeing Yuka once in an exhibition and managing to catch Mao Asada live in a 4cc competition! Hmm she didn't have a lot of power and huge speed but with one push, she moved smoothly over long distance just using her knees and leaning edge. When you see them skate live, you can immediately see and hear the difference between the smooth gliders, deep edges and those who are more average to mediocre. I also got to see even Yuna Kim once in an exhibition and while she is very fast, you can tell that her glide wasn't quite as smooth as Asada or Yuka's. After a while, you learn how to superimpose what you see on video to how they will possibly look like live. Will love to see how PChan and CaroK will look live on ice and definitely Virtue/Moir and especially Guillaume Cizeron!

2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

mrrice

Mayumi1990

frida80

Mayumi1990

Mayumi1990

frida80

drivingmissdaisy

frida80

temadd

Mayumi1990

matcha

frida80

R.D.

R.D.

Globetrotter

frida80

temadd

temadd

brightphoton

Globetrotter

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