Carol Lane commentating on the Rostelecom

beki · Oct 25, 2017

4everchan said:
are you saying that Tracy Wilson should no longer comment because she has many top students?

I love Tracy and would hate to lose out on her commentary. She also seems to do a better job of staying balanced. But it is a conflict of interest. We at least need to discuss it, and hold commentators to higher standards. We have recently retired former skaters like Tatiana and Charlie White who are knowledgeable and available. I know skating is a small world and everyone is connected. But could we at least try for indirect connections, instead of direct ones?

4everchan · Oct 25, 2017

beki said:
I love Tracy and would hate to lose out on her commentary. She also seems to do a better job of staying balanced. But it is a conflict of interest. We at least need to discuss it, and hold commentators to higher standards. We have recently retired former skaters like Tatiana and Charlie White who are knowledgeable and available. I know skating is a small world and everyone is connected. But could we at least try for indirect connections, instead of direct ones?

Well, that's the point I made. It's not because a commentator is inappropriate that all of them will be, whether they are coaching or not... And honestly, if we start looking at biases and conflict of interest, there are TONS..... Didn't Max Trankov do commentary BEFORE they were even retired???? I think it was during their year off??? And he didn't always say nice things about some of his OWN competitors...

That's why I reacted strongly.... it's not the first time someone says something like that... and I don't think it's fair to demonize Carol Lane in the current circumstances.

Barb · Oct 25, 2017

Snow63 said:
Pearly: There's still replies to her telling her it's unprofessional. I wonder what she wrote.

Actually she only wrote ¨ she is great¨ .

eta. sorry, I was answering to Pearly

madison · Oct 25, 2017

Snow63 said:
They will be debuting their new FD.

New FD? Do you mean they changed the FD?

Snow63 · Oct 25, 2017

madison said:
New FD? Do you mean they changed the FD?

I've heard they've made 'significant' changes. Not sure if it's completely new though.

mrrice · Oct 25, 2017

plushyfan said:
No, you are wrong. I can't say when she was coaching Yags they were dominating the figure skating. Look at the datas, please https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEhv9MKxHXk&t=2m16s After Plushy won the WCH. We can't say any of them was dominating the men fs.
Yags has more WCh titles(4) in total and in that era, too but you don't forget the age difference. Their last battle was in SLC when Plushy was only 19.

I'm going off of seeing them both twice...Once in 1999 and again in 2001. In 1999 Alexei won the Gold and Plushy won the Silver. Alexei repeated as Champion in 2000. I saw them again in Vancouver in 2001 and Plushy won the Gold (Looking very good :love:

) and Yagudin won the Silver. Alexander Abt was also there and finished 8th. Alexei won again in 2002 and Plushy won in 2003. That's as far back as I went but, you can see that for 5 straight years, The Russian Men dominated the Sport.

Mathman · Oct 25, 2017

mrrice said:
I remember that. [Dick Button] once said....."Not With This Panel" When Terry asked if Michelle was going to beat Irina. I don't recall which event it was but, I think it was Worlds in 2002.

Yes it was.......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoWrWD8M_cU

Well, the panel was Italy, Slovakia, Croatia, Hungary, France, Russia, Sweden, Armenia and Poland. Michelle's work was cut out for her.

But the actual conversation between Peggy Fleming and Dick Button came after Michelle had missed her triple-triple. Could Michelle beat Slutskaya without it? Peggy said maybe, Dick said, "Not with this panel." Poor Michelle. It wasn't her day, her month, or even her year.

Marta25 · Oct 25, 2017

Snow63 said:
I've heard they've made 'significant' changes. Not sure if it's completely new though.

So happy to read that. L/D really deserve better than that FD.

icetigger · Oct 25, 2017

Carole Lane has completely stitched up her own team here. She's their coach; and she's responsible for acting and communicating in a way that benefits them as a team. To make the comments she made was completely unprofessional; and is only likely to make any advance they might make within the sport an uphill struggle. If she had said that she had thought either team was over or under marked, no-one would have cared. But instead she slighted the Isu who organise this event and the host country in a way that both will remember. They aren't a stand out team that can have obstacles thrown at them and will be able to jump over them; they are a team that needs a favourable attitude to them; and Lane has foreclosed that possibility. They should change coaches immediately.

bramweld · Oct 25, 2017

Snow63 said:
They will be debuting their new FD.

Thank God. They finally scrapped the old one? Oh yes. I might even be looking forward to that then.

Eclair · Oct 25, 2017

as nasty as TSL is, I don't think their critique of Carol's commentary is totally beyond reason. I like Carol's commentary a LOT when she's commentating men's discipline. I remember her being very fair there. I never followed her on ice dance though.
But I agree, that it's not like Rostelecom cup is the only GP that overscores their skaters. Virtue and Moir could theoretically fall 2 times and Papadakis/Cizeron would still never ever win Skate Canada over V/M. Never. Instead of going around and calling 'Oh that's just Canada or that's just Russia or that's just USA' I think it would be a lot more constructive to admit by high profile commentators and insiders, that every big federation overscores their skaters at home events. And this results in a more unfair sport, in more politicking, and more disadvantage of smaller federation skaters AND more disadvantages for big federations skaters, too, as sometimes they have a good skate but loose to an overstored skater of another big federation.

If Misha Ge was from Canada, US or Russia, he would get the same PCS as Adam Rippon or Kolyada.
If Zijun was from Canada, US or Russia, she wouldn't have gotten less PCS than Courtney Hicks at last year's Rostelecom or get dinged on UR while Ashley's, Karen's, Satoko's UR gets overlooked and get dinged on (e) edges, while Evgenia, Osmond, Daleman flutzes get regularly overlooked.

Home inflation is already unavoidable as the home crowd will always clap more loudly for the home skaters, but it's really is hurting the sport if judges add even more to the home inflation. If someone asked me if figure skating deserve to be an olympic sport, I'd answer, if I'm really honest, that no it doesn't deserve it. Because the results have nothing to do with the olympic spirit, that the best performance wins or that the only thing that matters is how you do in competition.

Mathman · Oct 25, 2017

andromache said:
I recall reading a whole complicated breakdown of how, with the way that the ordinals were awarded, a swapping of only one or two numbers here and there in the LP would've ended up with Michelle or Irina in first. No idea when or where I read it...

Probably in the New York Times.

They published a big article the next day explaining incorrectly that if USA judge Joe Inman had placed Michelle in second and Irina in third (instead of the other way around), that Michelle would have got second in the LP and first overall. This claim was due to a misunderstanding on the part of the Times reporter. The reporter was going by the "majority of ordinals" system" as used at U.S. Nationals. But for international competitions the ISU had switch to the OBO (one by one) system.

But, like, 1 judge placed Michelle 2 spots above Sarah in the LP [ *this helped Irina*], another placed Sasha 2 spots above Sarah [* this helped Irina *, one placed Irina behind all 3 US ladies,[* this helped Michelle *] etc.

This was NOT a case of ordinals being all 1s and 2s - they were all over the place, probably because these judges were angling to "sabotage" either Irina or Sarah enough so that the other could win.

Well, I guess we can try to spot which judges were for Michelle and which for Irina. (Nobody was for Sarah going in.)

But there is also the possibility that the judges were trying to do their jobs conscientiously. Michelle fell and made another serious error. Irina was not her usual ebullient self. Sarah did two triple-triples and brought the house down (an American house, granted). But some of the judges might have seen other qualities in Michelle's skating that made up for the mistakes. Others may have been put off by Sarah's under-rotations and flutz. Yet others might have disagreed that Irina's performance was lack-luster, or might have held the opinion that this didn't matter much.

The reason that ordinals were cool is that they exhibit, in microcosm, the central dilemma of social choice theory. How can a society -- in this case, the panel of judges -- come to a consensus decision when there are wide differences of opinion among the voters? (Answer: there is no method that always produces a satisfactory result.

)

4everchan · Oct 25, 2017

icetigger said:
Carole Lane has completely stitched up her own team here. She's their coach; and she's responsible for acting and communicating in a way that benefits them as a team. To make the comments she made was completely unprofessional; and is only likely to make any advance they might make within the sport an uphill struggle. If she had said that she had thought either team was over or under marked, no-one would have cared. But instead she slighted the Isu who organise this event and the host country in a way that both will remember. They aren't a stand out team that can have obstacles thrown at them and will be able to jump over them; they are a team that needs a favourable attitude to them; and Lane has foreclosed that possibility. They should change coaches immediately.

honestly... she's been politically correct long enough... and that didn't serve them either.... calling out the biases in judging is becoming necessary at this point in time. Changing coaches? I don't think so.... whether it was conscious or not, her speaking up is something that could ruin her career as a commentator more than anything... she protected her students, she has told everyone not only how the judging system can be harmful but also HOW technically some of the other team's moves were not completed flawlessly. It was not just whining of complaining... there was substance there. I think that when someone sees technical flaws and can elaborate on them the way she did, it is another ballgame... it was not just about "artistic impression" here... She has told everyone that they are watching.... more people are now watching... I don't think remaining silent is helping anyone here... quite the contrary... it takes extreme courage or deep frustration for these things to come out...

I wonder what would have happened if BobSol didn't make a glaring mistake on the spin... because it may have been enough to overtake the Shibs... how would have Marina reacted? The USA commentators? The fans?

icetigger · Oct 25, 2017

4everchan said:
honestly... she's been politically correct long enough... and that didn't serve them either....

She's also been their coach long enough....... and that didn't serve them either. Now, they have an excuse to get rid of her, and a reason.

Sam-Skwantch · Oct 25, 2017

4everchan said:
honestly... she's been politically correct long enough... and that didn't serve them either.... calling out the biases in judging is becoming necessary at this point in time. Changing coaches? I don't think so.... whether it was conscious or not, her speaking up is something that could ruin her career as a commentator more than anything... she protected her students, she has told everyone not only how the judging system can be harmful but also HOW technically some of the other team's moves were not completed flawlessly. It was not just whining of complaining... there was substance there. I think that when someone sees technical flaws and can elaborate on them the way she did, it is another ballgame... it was not just about "artistic impression" here... She has told everyone that they are watching.... more people are now watching... I don't think remaining silent is helping anyone here... quite the contrary... it takes extreme courage or deep frustration for these things to come out...

I wonder what would have happened if BobSol didn't make a glaring mistake on the spin... because it may have been enough to overtake the Shibs... how would have Marina reacted? The USA commentators? The fans?

I think though you keep making it as if she were a 'whistle blower" for the benefit of the sport and breaking some silence that will benefit all skating. Again she only tossed shade at Rostelecom. It's not as if she is going to the IOC on behalf of all skaters and fans with some information that reveals unfair judging practice. If she had no agenda in her comments I think your case would be more reasonable. For now....I'm just sad that people on the inside who likely have influence from within can show this level of disrespect. YMMV but I can see why people aren't impressed and sadly I can see why Dave at TSL wet his pants when he heard. This is straight from his playbook :disagree:

4everchan · Oct 25, 2017

Sam-Skwantch said:
I think though you keep making it as if she were a 'whistle blower" for the benefit of the sport and breaking some silence that will benefit all skating. Again she only tossed shade at Rostelecom. It's not as if she is going to the IOC on behalf of all skaters and fans with some information that reveals unfair judging practice. If she had no agenda in her comments I think your case would be more reasonable. For now....I'm just sad that people on the inside who likely have influence from within can show this level of disrespect. YMMV but I can see why people aren't impressed and sadly I can see why Dave at TSL wet his pants when he heard. This is straight from his playbook :disagree:

fair enough... but i think i am saying that more coaches, skaters, and judges should speak up...

ETA : I said it was either a conscious deliberate act or one that came down from deep frustration... so I am not sure that she is indeed blowing the whistle here... i am just saying that since we all criticize the sport on this forum that i find it uncanny that some are judging her so harshly

Sam-Skwantch · Oct 25, 2017

4everchan said:
fair enough... but i think i am saying that more coaches, skaters, and judges should speak up...

ETA : I said it was either a conscious deliberate act or one that came down from deep frustration... so I am not sure that she is indeed blowing the whistle here... i am just saying that since we all criticize the sport on this forum that i find it uncanny that some are judging her so harshly

Well to be honest....I think if they focused the criticism within their own federations you'd see a better chance for actual change. If that is the intent here. Be the change you wish to see in the world and all that. That of course is assuming that hypothetical coaches,skaters, and judges wish to see change. Especially at home where they stand to gain more than they usually stand to lose at "away games" :think:

4everchan · Oct 25, 2017

Sam-Skwantch said:
Well to be honest....I think if they focused the criticism within their own federations you'd see a better chance for actual change. If that is the intent here. Be the change you wish to see in the world and all that. That of course is assuming that hypothetical coaches,skaters, and judges wish to see change. Especially at home where they stand to gain more than they usually stand to lose at "away games" :think:

well..... that's also part of my previous comment

they have been held down at home as well... and I am pretty sure she's talked to the federation about that one too

but it's not on instagram... so... it never happened

maybe they are just bad? what do I know? I am no ice dance expert.....

VIETgrlTerifa · Oct 25, 2017

Who here thinks that Stepanova/Bukin deserved to place ahead of Gilles/Poirier? I have to admit that I reversed the opinion I had after the SD with the FD. Step/Buk were on fire in the FD and had a real flow and speed and ease of getting across the ice that Gilles/Poirier do not have. Subjectively speaking, I know people praise Piper and Paul for being so concept heavy and wanting to be different but sometimes it comes off as trying too hard, especially when their performances become too self-aware of their quirk and I also think they some times sacrifice emotional depth or aren’t really capable of it. I loved their Hitchcock and enjoyed their disco SD (when they debuted it), enjoyed their Beatles revamped SD at 2016 Worlds, and liked the idea of their 2015-2016 FD, but I don’t find myself really feeling anything from those programs or their skating. As cheesy as Step/Buk’s FD is I can honestly say I felt something from it. Honestly, addressing Piper and Paul’s skating would be a lot more constructive than just saying “well, it’s Russia.” I know all coaches and skaters have felt something similar before even in domestic competitons where there may be domestic politics going on, but those teams that rise take it and keep working at it with persistence.

Honestly, I hope Carol Lane doesn’t just brush off this result and placement as being in Russia. That’s too Natalia Dubova coaching Bourne/Kraatz at 1999 COR for me and was a real sign that she lost perspective to effectively coach and improve them.

icetigger · Oct 25, 2017

4everchan said:
fair enough... but i think i am saying that more coaches, skaters, and judges should speak up...

ETA : I said it was either a conscious deliberate act or one that came down from deep frustration... so I am not sure that she is indeed blowing the whistle here... i am just saying that since we all criticize the sport on this forum that i find it uncanny that some are judging her so harshly

The issue is her contract with her team and doing the best for them. If her and Gilles and Poirier had previously discussed her being able to make those comments and that being what they wanted to happen to help them progress as a team, then that's fine. If they didn't discuss them and reach that conclusion, then it's unprofessional. My personal opinion is that she likely hadn't.........

Carol Lane commentating on the Rostelecom

beki

4everchan

Barb

madison

Snow63

Pray one day we'll open our eyes.

mrrice

Mathman

Marta25

icetigger

bramweld

Eclair

Mathman

4everchan

icetigger

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

4everchan

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

4everchan

VIETgrlTerifa

icetigger

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