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Sports culture is changing rapidly in Canada. Why not elsewhere ?
PJ Kwong interviews Carol Lane on Gilles/Poirier, Solo Dance and more
- Thread starter dorispulaski
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Here is the direction that I would like to see developed. Instead of solo dance, how about combining synchro with dance. This would be a showcase for choreogrphers.
www.youtube.com
By the way, I think that choreographer Lori Nicol was in the cast in this performance. She toured with John Curry's company from 1983 to 1986.
John Curry and company - William Tell overture
This was the finale of Symphony on Ice at the Royal Albert Hall 1984. (You have to watch very carefully to see where John makes his entrance!
www.youtube.com
By the way, I think that choreographer Lori Nicol was in the cast in this performance. She toured with John Curry's company from 1983 to 1986.
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Not that rapidly, I've seen what the Canadian men except Anthony (now there's a name for solo ID!) wear and do on ice, and many of 'em fight the 'unmanly' just as hard as the US men do, aren't there still way more women than men? Different cultures do also change at different rates, sometimes even going backwards.
Don't get me wrong, I do rather like the idea (I am watching some of the best show skating in the world atm, and I think it's a crying shame more skaters can't get the opportunity to flex their artistic muscles outside the tech-over-all requirements of singles competition). I just think the sport has to be realistic about how the intended young starters will be viewing and judging it so that they can work out how to counter that and appeal to them.
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Realistically, I do not really see the retired or semi-retired greats coming back to compete again in such a formula. What's in it for them? They have their achievements, they have their show engagements, they have their money and fans. They might add to such a comp flavour by joining the gala to draw attention, but that's all, I think.
Unless it all takes more an art performance or a show form, then maybe....
Unless it all takes more an art performance or a show form, then maybe....
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- Mar 7, 2015
Sports culture is changing rapidly whether you believe it or not. It's changing at the grassroots level, and that's where it has to start, creating a foundation for a new culture which is less toxic. I am not sure what whom you are referring to with your comment but it doesn't matter. There is a world of difference between the way sport is practiced, coached and managed in Canada and it's started just a few years ago. Hard for someone who is not local to see it at this point perhaps, so you will have to take my word for it. Can it be better? Can it go faster ? Sure. But it's a reflect of society...of the world we live in. In grade school, kids are made aware of things like gender identity here.
BTW, bunching the USA and Canada together in that aspect is showing a lack of understanding of the major differences between both countries. In so many ways, there are commonalities but in equity, gender identity, and inclusivity, Canada is much closer to Scandinavia than to the USA.
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- Apr 23, 2018
Kids are made aware of the same things here. I am not saying sports culture is not putting in the hard yards, I am saying that it will take time for a lot of the schoolyard culture to change that much as well. trust me, I want it to and I think it may well happen. I think the difference between us is that you see it happening with the youngsters themselves, before and as make their choices, faster than I expect it to. I will say that I hope you are right and I am wrong, and for more countries than just Canada.
I wasn't talking about the countries in general, or even the sporting bodies, I was talking about the actual skaters I see and hear online.
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- Mar 7, 2015
I am always right.
You cannot see a drastic change with the people you see now... These athletes were not brought up the same way kids are today. So you will just need to take my word for it.
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Women are more flexible, but they are not naturally more graceful or have better lines. I think for most skating moves you do not need excessive flexibility. Mostly for certain spins.
Anyway, while on the one hand it's true teenagers are more aware of gender questions today and there is a development in a certain direction there is also a massive backlash now and the "you have to be male and virile" schoolyard mentality is even apart from that still going very strong.
Anyway, while on the one hand it's true teenagers are more aware of gender questions today and there is a development in a certain direction there is also a massive backlash now and the "you have to be male and virile" schoolyard mentality is even apart from that still going very strong.
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- Mar 7, 2015
really ? that's probably why several of my boys paint their fingers from time to time... like seriously...
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- Dec 7, 2022
Well, your boys are in the musical/cultural milieu I suppose.
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- Mar 7, 2015
Not really... At that age, they don't see music very seriously. It's something they just do... most of them play hockey or soccer as well. (meaning that their nails are also showing in their other activities...)
Also, ten years ago, I wouldn't have been able to talk about this at all. There is a very important shift in society when it comes to equity, inclusivity and gender identity. It's definitely not every where of course...
For instance, Quebec authors make a book on gender identity which is even used in schools here... while it gets banned in some USA states. (these are old news, over a year ago)
In Canada, when there is talk to ban such books, usually in Catholic school boards (in Quebec, the school system is not affiliated with religious beliefs... but it is still in some provinces) there is also the backlash from those who believe children's right to read.
;Composite=(type=URL,url=https://images.radio-canada.ca/v1/assets/elements/16x9/outdated-content-2024.png),gravity=SouthEast,placement=Over,location=(0,0),scale=1)
Calls to ban books are on the rise in Canada. So is the opposition to any bans | RCI
Most Canadians 'stand with authors ... stand with a child's right to read,' says writer whose book was pulled
ici.radio-canada.ca
Anyways, sorry for the brief incursion in gender identity and inclusivity... but it is indeed related to solo dance and same gender ice dance, which are both new in Canada and aim to encourage participation in the sport.
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- Jun 2, 2014
Great interview. Even though I don't follow dance too closely, it was fun to hear Carol's perspective on things. I love how she talked about how the coaches used to get REALLY dressed up -- both for competitions and just to give lessons. And how cool was that to give a "shout out" to the beautiful crowns made by our own @NoNameFace.
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It was my first day of some sickness I've brought upon myself (almost over it now!) and Coach Carol truly made my day with that shoutout (possibly month lol).
It truly strengthens my quest to continue with saying thank you to the skaters. I often write on those small notes attached to the crowns that I wish I could give them medals, high scores, but I want to give them something they can attach a nice memory to. To remember someone cared about their efforts, even if the skates were not perfect. And they are making my day if they are putting crowns on their heads
PS. Coach Carol's brain is AMAZING. I've had privilege to chat with her twice while in Finland (2022 and 2023 GPs) and she truly knows her element. Plus speaking with her helped me understand why Piper and Paul are the way they are - and, by that, why I'm such a fan. The customised approach, the originality, finding your own identity, approaching music/costume/whole package...
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Not really... At that age, they don't see music very seriously. It's something they just do... most of them play hockey or soccer as well. (meaning that their nails are also showing in their other activities...)
Also, ten years ago, I wouldn't have been able to talk about this at all. There is a very important shift in society when it comes to equity, inclusivity and gender identity. It's definitely not every where of course...
For instance, Quebec authors make a book on gender identity which is even used in schools here... while it gets banned in some USA states. (these are old news, over a year ago)
In Canada, when there is talk to ban such books, usually in Catholic school boards (in Quebec, the school system is not affiliated with religious beliefs... but it is still in some provinces) there is also the backlash from those who believe children's right to read.
Calls to ban books are on the rise in Canada. So is the opposition to any bans | RCI
Most Canadians 'stand with authors ... stand with a child's right to read,' says writer whose book was pulled
Anyways, sorry for the brief incursion in gender identity and inclusivity... but it is indeed related to solo dance and same gender ice dance, which are both new in Canada and aim to encourage participation in the sport.
Of course a lot has happened in the last decades and a lot of progress has been made. But I have made the experience that I thought we had come a longer way than we actually did. I think you can see the backlash in political disussions and votes. Many people are very afraid of strong binary gender roles being broken up. Being mostly among social/cultural sciences people/creatives as a young adult there is a lot I did not expect anymore but experienced being the mother of a boy. For instance I let him try ballet (because I thought why not) but there was only one other boy, and all the girls there were in tutus - they did not have to be, they could just wear leggings and t-shirt but they all wanted to be little princesses. In kindergarten all the girls wanted to be in the cheerleading group, the boys in the football group. Apart from one girl with Indian heritage there were only boys at the "Math Olympics". Now in his class there are several girls who are into ballet and horses, no boy is. Yes, there was a non binary pupil in his class but I think they were only there because they got bullied in another class. And so on... Sure, there are other examples of boys and girls crossing the gender lines, of groups where it's all fine. But the traditional roles are still so strong, the boys who play football and have bigger muscles are popular, the football playing girl isn't, the girls are all into make up, the boys aren't etc... And I hear the talk of the fathers of younger kids as well... men on the street... sometimes I think they are from the stone age, but they are there and they are many. The poster looking for kids for figure skating at the rink sports a girl in a glitzery dress, not a boy, not a girl and a boy. I don't think Germany is particularly conservative in that regard, I think it's pretty average.
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Thank you for you message from your own experience in Germany.
Sorry I am doing mine from my phone and not sure how to put a spoiler for the off topic.
All I will say is that most of my kids are boys. Not something we would have seen a while back when most piano students were girls.
The kids cannot change faster than their parents though. The kids of the kids I am teaching will certainly be different. For instance in our book, there is a match stick figure.. and when I say she or he, many of my kids have told me, how do you know about their gender? It is clearly non-binary. Grade 4 and 5 kids. So about ten years old. Imagine my surprise as when I was that age, there is no way I even knew I was gay and that it was fine to be gay. Kids today are very much more accepting.
Again, this is a side topic but it is important if it can allow young humans in Solo dance
This is why I am a strong advocate for the mixed competitive field. No need to put labels on people when it is not necessary.
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- Jun 6, 2019
solo dance isn't scored correctly to begin with. It's scored a lot more on performance, and the skating skills mark is almost meaningless. That's not to say top solo dancers don't have good skating skills, but rather that it doesn't appear to actually factor into how judges mark skating skills, and the differentiation isn't there for good vs bad skating skills.
I don't think judges know quite what to do. They want to push it as an elite discipline, so give it 7s, 8s, 9s at the top, reguardless of this is correct or not to get scores that match the skating quality in other disciplines.
There isn't really a male advantage in terms of difficulty etc, but boys are receiving much higher scores simply due to judge bias. For example, Brooke is much much better than Lucas in skating skills, yet they are put as close competitors. This for me is an example of an ice dancer skating without a partner, vs a free skater without jumps.
I just think there needs to be a lot more judge training for it to become a serious ISU discipline. And I hope it will. But if judged correctly, men do have a natural power advantage - but nowadays skating skills is judged less on power, and more on other factors.
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- Mar 7, 2015
well... that's another problem altogether.
But here's the catch : if they are going to keep it a mixed sport, then, they have to create criteria that doesn't give an exclusive advantage based on gender and that's totally feasible.
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- Mar 3, 2014
So, back to the interview! (not that I don't find this interesting, just not necessarily related to Carol Lane. 
)
I did not listen to the every second of interview, so maybe someone who did can tell me if I'm being unfair?
PJ and Carol love story telling. Fair enough. I love story telling.
There is no team out there that tells a story better than Madi and Evan. Lilah and Lewis tell and sell their stories.
Was there ever any acknowledgement that IAM teams do tell stories that are memorable? Now, PJ and Carol may think, okey dokey but "my" team has better skating skills, aren't cheesy, whatever, and they also tell a story. That's fine, but the part that I listened to, that wasn't the topic, it was just remembering programs that told a story.
And I am all for mixed gender solo dance comps.
)I did not listen to the every second of interview, so maybe someone who did can tell me if I'm being unfair?
PJ and Carol love story telling. Fair enough. I love story telling.
There is no team out there that tells a story better than Madi and Evan. Lilah and Lewis tell and sell their stories.
Was there ever any acknowledgement that IAM teams do tell stories that are memorable? Now, PJ and Carol may think, okey dokey but "my" team has better skating skills, aren't cheesy, whatever, and they also tell a story. That's fine, but the part that I listened to, that wasn't the topic, it was just remembering programs that told a story.
And I am all for mixed gender solo dance comps.
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- Mar 7, 2015
Well... selling a program and telling a story are two different things in my opinion. I don't know what stories Madi and Evan were telling this year in either of their dances, though they have been good in previous years. The Brits were very literally playing movie charactersSo, back to the interview! (not that I don't find this interesting, just not necessarily related to Carol Lane.
I did not listen to the every second of interview, so maybe someone who did can tell me if I'm being unfair?
PJ and Carol love story telling. Fair enough. I love story telling.
There is no team out there that tells a story better than Madi and Evan. Lilah and Lewis tell and sell their stories.
Was there ever any acknowledgement that IAM teams do tell stories that are memorable? Now, PJ and Carol may think, okey dokey but "my" team has better skating skills, aren't cheesy, whatever, and they also tell a story. That's fine, but the part that I listened to, that wasn't the topic, it was just remembering programs that told a story.
And I am all for mixed gender solo dance comps.
What Carol mentioned about other teams is that all these teams are all very good and all deserving. You should listen. I feel like it's a bit unfair to ask Carol to answer questions she wasn't asked to answer you know. Also, the mentioning of the great teams of the past was all done by PJ and not Carol.
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- Mar 3, 2014
Well... selling a program and telling a story are two different things in my opinion. I don't know what stories Madi and Evan were telling this year in either of their dances, though they have been good in previous years. The Brits were very literally playing movie characters
What Carol mentioned about other teams is that all these teams are all very good and all deserving. You should listen. I feel like it's a bit unfair to ask Carol to answer questions she wasn't asked to answer you know. Also, the mentioning of the great teams of the past was all done by PJ and not Carol.
You are right, it was PJ.
I do not see a difference between selling a story and telling a story. Then again, I *like* Lilah and Lewis, not just for performance factors but for skating, and too darn bad if that makes me a cheese fan.
Madi and Evan had an involved take about time and what it meant and how it changed and that was their FD. I'm not sure it worked, but that was their take. Then again, I don't see where Piper and Paul told a story. Beautiful skating, but not a story.
I agree with them (both PJ and Carol in this instance) that patterns and ODs are a good way to compare teams. No need for a story.
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