Balancing sport and risk in figure skating

Mrs. P · Mar 12, 2018

As the sport continues to push technical boundaries in all disciplines, as witnessed by Sasha's Trusova's two quad jumps in her Junior Worlds free skate, the question of mitigating risk comes up.

Obviously, there is risk of injury in the sport and injuries can occur in a number of ways, not just jumps, but I think there's a nuanced discussion to be had on how the sport needs to mitigate EXCESSIVE injury and other negative effects of pushing technical boundaries. I think it's possible to have this discussion while praising the ways that athletes are taking the sport to new heights.

This is a conversation not limited to figure skating. Other winter sports are being faced with the same question.

http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2018/01/22/winter-olympics-risk-skier-deaths
http://vancouversun.com/opinion/op-...-died-in-less-than-a-month-on-canadian-slopes

What can stakeholders in figure skating, including federations, IOC, skating families and manufacturers do to ensure that the risks are being mitigated in a way that does not excessively affect the athletes in this sport?

ISU has tried things like restricting certain types of jumps in the lower levels and age limits, but it seems few believe that actually does much of anything. Are there other things that can be done thorough policy, best practices, etc.?

cruzceleste · Mar 12, 2018

I once again think is great for her that she is able to achieve so such difficult elements.

But I worry for her and young skaters like Gogolev to practice this difficult jumps.

We have seem men/ women with severe injuries because of falls, and we don´t know the effects the impact of this jumps will have on their growing bodies...

I don´t have the answers on if this jumps should be restricted, but I do worry and hope there is someone (doctor, parents...) watching closely all this..

andromache · Mar 12, 2018

Hockey and American football are my biggest concerns.

CTE ruins lives. It's tragic that we encourage athletes to perform in sports where one of the central goals involves getting the crap beaten out of your head, and I think it's by far the biggest health/injury related issue in sports today. We know what the science reveals. It's soooooooooo messed up.

Yeah, I think Trusova will probably have some hip and/or spine problems in a few years - but I am wayyyyyyy more worried about sports in which CTE is super common.

Mathman · Mar 12, 2018

andromache said:
Hockey and American football are my biggest concerns.

CTE ruins lives. It's tragic that we encourage athletes to perform in sports where one of the central goals involves getting the crap beaten out of your head, and I think it's by far the biggest health/injury related issue in sports today. We know what the science reveals. It's soooooooooo messed up.

Boxing is a sport where the goal is literally to batter your opponent into unconsciousness with you fists.

Floyd Mayweather made US$ 600,000,000 for one fight in 2015.

I remember when helmets were first introduced into hockey. The majority of the players wouldn't hear of it. Only a sissy would wear a helmet!

elbkup · Mar 12, 2018

Great thread!!!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=edpTZsdYFL4

Frontline documentary on football, concussions and Chronic Traumatic Encephalitis (CTE) which is not limited to football ...

Mrs. P · Mar 12, 2018

Given that people are bringing up other sports as "higher risk" than figure skating, is there evidence that actually shows that figure skating is LESS risky than these other sports? It's certainly not as high profile as American football, but there's been quite a bit of talk about concussions in figure skating.

Izabela · Mar 12, 2018

Mrs. P said:
Given that people are bringing up other sports as "higher risk" than figure skating, is there evidence that actually shows that figure skating is LESS risky than these other sports? It's certainly not as high profile as American football, but there's been quite a bit of talk about concussions in figure skating.

This is really an interesting question because it tells a lot how little we know about what's going on in figure skating behind their 4 minute performance. Unlike football or boxing where "actual performance" show injuries in an "in your face" kind of risky, figure skating is about hiding how difficult it is during your performance. The more you achieve the "he/she made it look easy" the more people appreciate the skating. So I think that really shaped the way figure skating is perceived among casual fans when it comes to risk.

There may be no definite statistics out there to gauge how difficult the sport is, but the fact that longevity in this sport is rare, and injuries are always something every skater face, I think it's really riskier than other sports. Also the fact that you have to train countless of times just for a 4 minute program speaks a lot about how physically demanding the sport is.

Arriba627 · Mar 14, 2018

As a fan of the "headless spin", I still wonder if that spin is too dangerous for my favorite skaters to be doing! This video is a few years old but has some interesting information about spinning and concussions.

https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/trou...-Skating-Spins-and-Concussions-245096171.html

Ladskater · Mar 15, 2018

If you want to list a rough sport high in injury especially spinal - rugby is at the top of the list. It's a very popular sport here in Canada

https://physioworks.com.au/Injuries-Conditions/Activities/rugby-union-injuries

I agree though that skaters are taking more risks with the jumps they're doing and pair teams are doing dangerous lifts, throws and spins. Hopefully someone is monitoring these dangerous moves.

Ladskater · Mar 15, 2018

Arriba627 said:
As a fan of the "headless spin", I still wonder if that spin is too dangerous for my favorite skaters to be doing! This video is a few years old but has some interesting information about spinning and concussions.

https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/trou...-Skating-Spins-and-Concussions-245096171.html

Thanks for this, I'd forgotten about Lucinda Ruh. She was the queen of spinning!

CanadianSkaterGuy · Mar 15, 2018

Unfortunately, now the sport has gotten much riskier because harder technical prowess is what it takes to win. It doesn't lend itself to longevity within the sport, but it does push the sport forward.

There has to be some risk in sport, otherwise, everyone should do doubles and call it a day. Standards have changed and skaters are more ambitious. That's not a bad thing, but winter olympic sports are typically crazy dangerous and ice is always slippery -- but then you're doing even harder maneuvers on said slippery surface.

I for one am a fan of risk-takers (in general, and in figure skating), and I think it's something to be praised.

noskates · Mar 15, 2018

Rugby for sure. My son played rugby from senior in high school all through college and club rugby for about 12 years after that. He was an All-American in college and his school won the National Championship. Suffice to say I can butterfly bandage with the best of them.

BUT - back to figure skating. I've said this many times - as long as the bar continues to be pushed higher with quads there will be more injuries. And the injuries will not be just a week off the ice. They could be career -ending. And then you have to wonder how that's going to plague a person the rest of their life....back problems, knee problems, ankle problems. There are 2 schools of thought on quads and I'm in the school that feels they should be held to a certain number in any program. Call me old-fashioned (and I sure some will) but to me they are ruining men's figure skating. With people like Javi and Patrick retiring all we're going to see is jump...skate a little....jump....skate a little...a lot of windmilling arms, poor footwork and no sense o grace or finesse. It will be all about the jumps. And when you see young teenagers attempting these jumps you just have to wonder if they'll make it in the sport until they're 20.

drivingmissdaisy · Mar 15, 2018

Mrs. P said:
ISU has tried things like restricting certain types of jumps in the lower levels and age limits, but it seems few believe that actually does much of anything. Are there other things that can be done thorough policy, best practices, etc.?

I know this is an unpopular opinion here, but I would have 18 years old be the minimum age for senior events. It would force coaches to encourage proper technique that would survive puberty and also develop healthy training and eating habits that would prolong their careers beyond the age of 17.

andromache · Mar 15, 2018

drivingmissdaisy said:
I know this is an unpopular opinion here, but I would have 18 years old be the minimum age for senior events. It would force coaches to encourage proper technique that would survive puberty and also develop healthy training and eating habits that would prolong their careers beyond the age of 17.

The more we see how the past few seasons have gone, the more I am inclined to agree with you.

A professional sport should not be dominated by children.

(Granted, we're still seeing grown women make podiums! All is not lost! But it seems like over the next few years we will quickly progress to a state of the sport where only young teens can complete the highest level of technical content needed to win medals.)

Shayuki · Mar 15, 2018

drivingmissdaisy said:
I know this is an unpopular opinion here, but I would have 18 years old be the minimum age for senior events. It would force coaches to encourage proper technique that would survive puberty and also develop healthy training and eating habits that would prolong their careers beyond the age of 17.

That would just make the junior worlds a far more exciting event to watch as well as the event with far stronger performances... Which is probably not how it should be. In my opinion, the best in the world should be in seniors and personally I'd rather lower the age limit than increase it. If you are good you are good, whether you are 12 or 30 years old. And it should be purely up to how good the skater is.

Technically, lowering the age limit would potentially reduce the need to delay puberty for certain individuals, whereas increasing it to such an extent might cause entire puberty skips as a result(They are possible). After that, you pretty much need to eat the hormones to be able to gain puberty's effects.

SmallAminal · Mar 15, 2018

Mrs. P said:
This is a conversation not limited to figure skating. Other winter sports are being faced with the same question.

In fact, other sports in general (as some have mentioned), but I think there is a strong parallel to gymnastics. Back in the 70's they were performing Olympic routines that basically a Level 7 gymnast would be doing today. Olga Korbut did a backflip on the beam and it was jaw dropping - now it would be normal to see a 7 or 8 year old doing that same move.

There were *so many* injuries at the last world championships that it sparked a lot of debate around "has the sport of gymnastics gone too far?". Like skating, gymnastics went from a 10.0 system (akin to the 6.0 in skating) to a theoretically unlimited points system that rewarded an athlete for difficulty, not just execution. And predictably, the difficulty ramped up and so did the injuries.

Like skating, gymnastics is an early specialization sport (i.e. you have to start young) and one where you typically peak at a fairly young age. Many gymnasts suffer not only from acute injuries (e.g. breaking your leg or snapping your neck) but also long term injuries, such as spine, knee, hip and other problems. Something like Skeleton (also crazy dangerous) is a late specialization sport where you usually get into later in life. I feel like if you get into a dangerous sport as an adult, you have the capacity to understand what you are doing and can take responsibility for personally assuming the risk (not that it absolves any governing body of trying to mitigate said inherent risk).

But does a kid have the capacity to understand the risks of attempting or repeatedly training a quad jump (or attempting a Yurchenko double back vault)? I think parents also have to weigh the risks - do you want 0.00001% chance of Olympic glory and 100% chance of injury, or do you want to err on the side of keeping them healthy but understand they can never then make it to that level?

I am curious what has been going on in the world of gymnastics around balancing risks because I see a ton of parallels with figure skating - they are struggling with basically the same stuff.

ice coverage · Mar 15, 2018

Mrs. P said:
... Are there other things that can be done thorough policy, best practices, etc.?

FWIW, "The Healthy Skater" is the theme of a new series of ISU seminars, introduced by the ISU Development Commission and ISU Medical Commission.

Injury prevention is the topic of the first one, which will be held at Milan Worlds. Two hours long.

It also will be live streamed.

https://isu.org/events/eventdetail/...es-seminars-healthy-skaters?templateParam=11d

https://isu.org/news-inside-isu/152...hes-seminars-healthy-skaters?templateParam=15

QueenOfTheRoad · Mar 15, 2018

SmallAminal said:
In fact, other sports in general (as some have mentioned), but I think there is a strong parallel to gymnastics. Back in the 70's they were performing Olympic routines that basically a Level 7 gymnast would be doing today. Olga Korbut did a backflip on the beam and it was jaw dropping - now it would be normal to see a 7 or 8 year old doing that same move.

There were *so many* injuries at the last world championships that it sparked a lot of debate around "has the sport of gymnastics gone too far?". Like skating, gymnastics went from a 10.0 system (akin to the 6.0 in skating) to a theoretically unlimited points system that rewarded an athlete for difficulty, not just execution. And predictably, the difficulty ramped up and so did the injuries.

Like skating, gymnastics is an early specialization sport (i.e. you have to start young) and one where you typically peak at a fairly young age. Many gymnasts suffer not only from acute injuries (e.g. breaking your leg or snapping your neck) but also long term injuries, such as spine, knee, hip and other problems. Something like Skeleton (also crazy dangerous) is a late specialization sport where you usually get into later in life. I feel like if you get into a dangerous sport as an adult, you have the capacity to understand what you are doing and can take responsibility for personally assuming the risk (not that it absolves any governing body of trying to mitigate said inherent risk).

But does a kid have the capacity to understand the risks of attempting or repeatedly training a quad jump (or attempting a Yurchenko double back vault)? I think parents also have to weigh the risks - do you want 0.00001% chance of Olympic glory and 100% chance of injury, or do you want to err on the side of keeping them healthy but understand they can never then make it to that level?

I am curious what has been going on in the world of gymnastics around balancing risks because I see a ton of parallels with figure skating - they are struggling with basically the same stuff.

I still love to watch Korbut, but i cannot watch modern gymnastic anymore. It might be that it is more difficult but: it doesn't look beautiful anymore; everybody do the same jump, Amanar, and it annoys me to death (back in time vault used to be so creative and interesting). It is just boring for me now.

The problematic of early specialization is a reason why fewer and fewer parents are giving their kids to gymnastic in Romania. While a not so expensive sport, it is very dangerous and you might invest your childhood for nothing and get injured just at you get your first results ending with no money made out of it.

drivingmissdaisy · Mar 15, 2018

Shayuki said:
That would just make the junior worlds a far more exciting event to watch as well as the event with far stronger performances... Which is probably not how it should be.

You're right, and that is a legitimate concern. I don't like the current age limit because it really doesn't serve any purpose; the juniors attempt the same (or more) difficulty as seniors, and women are still prepubescent when they become age eligible for seniors. The cutoff seems arbitrary and prevents true prodigies (Mao in 2006) an opportunity to shine. However, if the age cutoff served some purpose for the benefit of the athletes, it would be a good thing.

MsLayback · Mar 15, 2018

Thanks for putting up this thread! I to worry about what we are seeing in the Jr level with girls. The repetitious practice to master jumps can damage growth plates and joints. Men and women have different shape pelvis So there is presidence that girls risk greater damage then boys. Also the child's growth has a lot to do with repetitious movements as it relates to sports. When my child hip puberty we had an issue with his spinal growth and the moves and throws he was practicing as a wrestler... He has been wrestling since he was in the 3rd grade but when he got into 9th grade and started to have a major growth spurt in his spine We started to notice signs of sports induced scoliosis... It was really heartbreaking for him that he had to reduce the amount of time he could practice and progress. His coach was really supportive and he continues to be a part of the team But cannot train with the intensity that he used to

Balancing sport and risk in figure skating

Mrs. P

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cruzceleste

andromache

Mathman

elbkup

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Mrs. P

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Izabela

Arriba627

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Ladskater

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noskates

drivingmissdaisy

andromache

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QueenOfTheRoad

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