New ISU rules for the upcoming season

1111bm said:

Regardless of which jump is actually more difficult (or just accepting that it comes down to personal preference and will vary for each skater), I’ve always found it kinda inconsistent when certain fans advocate for a higher BV for the 4Lo, claiming that it’s more difficult than the 4Lz. Because as it happens, of course their fave has chosen jumping 4Lo over a 4Lz.

I mean, you gotta ask yourself, why were these poor skaters punishing themselves with the most difficult quad of 'em all. If i'is in fact easier, why didn't they go for the 4Lz, which would’ve earned them more points on top of it? No one’s forcing them to do the harder, less rewarding thing. Certainly not the evil ISU which has concocted such an unfair Scale of Values.
I can only conclude that the Loop is actually easier for the skaters in question, anything else wouldn’t be logical. Which ironically kinda contradicts the whole argument of ‚they're not being rewarded for taking more of a risk by doing the more difficult element‘.

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I think that he was rather following a sequence. First he jumped a 4 Toe loop, then a 4 Salchow, then a 4 Loop and then a 4 Lutz. (He has a problem with his flip.) After the 4 Lutz he got injured and was nervous to repeat the jump afterwards for some time. The end of the story.

Well, by the same argument, if the 4Loop is easier than 4F & 4Lutz,
a) why hasnt more men land 4 Loop successfully? For those who have, why did a lot of them ditch it? Didnt Nathan Chen stated just last year at GPF that the 4 Loop is scary?

If the 4 Lutz is indeed higher difficulty, why can quite a number of men of various nationalities land it successfully? Those who cant, go for the 4T & 4S. If the 4 Loop & 4F are easier according to the code of points, why do the men straight go down to doing 4T and/or 4S after failing their 4 Lutz attempts?

b) if the 4 Loop is easier, why has no lady successfully land it yet? Even the ambitious Trusova who wants to make history by landing all the quads(except 4A)?
Trusova & Anna S could land a 4Lutz, pre rotated or not is another issue.

A 'harder' element is supposed to rarity, like some of the elements Simone Biles does. Only Simone Biles can execute them.

In any case, with the equality in points, we shall see if more men attempt the 4 Loop or not.

My list of skaters with a textbook technique (toe assisted jumps):
Men - Yuzuru, Nathan, Boyang and Kolyada
Ladies - Yuna, Carolina and Miki (great success)
Tuktamysheva (very good success)
Tsurskaya, Tarakanova, Sotskova, Kanysheva (good success)
Maria Artemieva (medaled at Universiade)
Polina Edmunds (won Four Continents)
Alaine Chartrand (medaled at a senior GP event)
Alexia Paganini, Tomoe Kawabata (unknown destiny?)
Who else? No idea.

eaglehelang said:

Well, by the same argument, if the 4Loop is easier than 4F & 4Lutz,
a) why hasnt more men land 4 Loop successfully? For those who have, why did a lot of them ditch it? Didnt Nathan Chen stated just last year at GPF that the 4 Loop is scary?

If the 4 Lutz is indeed higher difficulty, why can quite a number of men of various nationalities land it successfully? Those who cant, go for the 4T & 4S. If the 4 Loop & 4F are easier according to the code of points, why do the men straight go down to doing 4T and/or 4S after failing their 4 Lutz attempts?

b) if the 4 Loop is easier, why has no lady successfully land it yet? Even the ambitious Trusova who wants to make history by landing all the quads(except 4A)?
Trusova & Anna S could land a 4Lutz, pre rotated or not is another issue.

A 'harder' element is supposed to rarity, like some of the elements Simone Biles does. Only Simone Biles can execute them.

In any case, with the equality in points, we shall see if more men attempt the 4 Loop or not.

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A. Only a handful of men have achieved landing more than two types of quads. As a result, most men don’t need to learn all types of quads and will focus only one the ones that will nab them the most points. It’s a no brainer why so many men and now ladies focus on 4Lz. It had the biggest BV and the largest potential GOE.

The ditched it because they didn’t need it. Shoma already had a 4F, 4Ts and high quality 3As. Nathan had all his other quads. It’s just not neccessary unless want to land more than 4 quads and struggle with edges.

Nathan has always struggled with edge jumps. Just two years ago he said his worst quad was his triple axel. Over the last few years he’s improved his consistency on his weaker jumps, 3A and 4S, both edge jumps. He also once said he was scared of doing 4T, now his favorite jump.

Once again, they chose to focus on the 4Lz because of the points and that is their dominate jump. That’s why Shoma focused on landing a 4F and then a 4Lo instead of a 4LZ.

B. The number of ladies harness have successfully landed a quad in the last few years can be counted on just one hand. It’s very unfair to suddenly use this small group of ladies as a sample of a larger question. The reason why they have landed a 4Lo as pretty much the same as the men. They don’t need it. They can focused on easier ones for consistency or harder harder ones for extra points. The 4Lo had a BV lower than the 4F the 4Lz. No need to waste time on then middle jump when you can skip right the hard ones can reap bigger rewards.

Simone Biles is insanely talented. However, in the double double dismount from the beam, the reason they devalued the score was because it was considered dangerous. She’s 144cm. Shorter than the average gymnast, so they have a point. They do give her the points on the triple double on the first floor.

Now that’s points really equal and Moreno men focus on their third quad we’ll probably see more attempts. And failures, because quads are notoriously hard and have ruined many a men’s FS competition. It’s not like we haven’t watched most men attempting 4Lz’s fail tons of the time.

eaglehelang said:

Well, by the same argument,…

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I feel you kinda missed the point of my earlier post.

My argument was, that what’s considered difficult is ultimately relative.
And that no matter our opinion on which jump is more difficult, and even if let’s say 99,9 % of all skaters proclaim that it’s in fact 4Lo, the few select ones who actually chose 4Lo over 4Lz (and sometimes 4F) despite the difference in BV, did almost certainly find 4Lo easier. So from their perspective they’re not actually doing the more difficult jump. And that there’s some irony in it when fans sort of advocate for those skaters' 'rights', claiming they're doing the more difficult element, when of all skaters, they are the ones this doesn't apply to.

eaglehelang said:

why hasnt more men land 4 Loop successfully? For those who have, why did a lot of them ditch it? Didnt Nathan Chen stated just last year at GPF that the 4 Loop is scary?

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I assume you mean, why haven’t more skaters trained and attempted a 4Lo in competition.
(because I’m not actually sure there have been more failed attempts at landing a 4Lo relative to 4Lz?)

Out of the ones who have at least attempted 4Lo once in competition, did really that many of them ditch it?
Yuzuru hasn’t. Neither has Daniel? Shoma has stuck with it for some time, no? Might bring it back, too, especially should he now start receiving somewhat lower GOE on his 4F. I believe he also hasn’t done 4F or 4S either for certain periods of time after the Olympics?

Matteo had just gotten comfortable with his 4T, 4Lo was his second quad I think? So not only was he introducing a new quad in his programs, this also meant he had to land an additional one on the whole. Once he started having problems with consistency, it was only reasonable to drop the newest jump in his arsenal, because most likely it’s gonna be the least stable for him. Doesn't mean he’s not gonna revisit it next season or at some point later in his career (unless he ruled that out in some interview?).

Alexei has been back and forth between 4F and 4Lo I believe? I don’t think he’s ditched it entirely.

It’s also worth noting, that none of these guys (Shoma, Matteo, Alexei) is now jumping a 4Lz instead.
(might be working on it though, for all I know)

Boyang tried to incorporate a 4Lo into his repertoire at the start of the 18/19 season, but quickly let go of that plan. But to be fair, at that time he started struggling with executing his 'old' quads, never mind adding a new one. It makes sense that he would first try to stabilise the ones that he was already comfortable with in the past. The one time he did a 4Lo during actual competition, it was the only quad he landed successfully on that day though.

ETA: Boyang also attempted a 4Lo at 4CC 2017 (UR and fall). Worth noting: He had only done 4 quad programs until then (if I'm not mistaken) and this was the first time he went for 5 quads, introducing the 4Lo. Very ambitious of course, upgrading from 4-5 and attempting a new jump for the first time in international comp.
Also makes you wonder, given the old repetition rules... why didn't he simply repeat his money jump 4Lz? Or the 4S even (lower BV than 4Lo and 4Lz, but still)? He didn't need the 4Lo for a 5 quad program and both 4Lz or 4S would be seemingly easier options.

Nathan first acquired 4T and then 4S, I assume as a sort of 'entry level' quads, by the same logic that T and S usually get taught first among all jumps.
Next, probably based on his preference for toe jumps (he doesn’t like Loop in general) he went for 4F and 4Lz. Or maybe it was the higher BV. Or both, who knows.
The following season he introduced the 4Lo, did it successfully twice in comp, then ditched it for the time being. He didn’t really need it after all, since with the old repetition rules he could still do a 6 quad program without it. And it was the Olympic season, so you’d wanna play it safe. Why burden himself with a fifth type of quad, when juggling many different types of quads at the same time is challenging in itself, and the 4Lo was probably the least stable one (either because Loop is generally a weak jump for him or because it was a new addition).
Over the next two seasons he went to college and trained mostly without his coach. So he was just trying to maintain the jumps he had been actively doing at the time, not even doing 4S for most of the 18/19 season, never mind adding back the 4Lo under those circumstances. Plus, he didn’t need it because he wasn’t doing more than 5 quads in a program.
Nevertheless, from what he’s been saying during interviews, he always wanted to bring it back at some point (I assume when he’s back with his coach full-time).

Did I forget someone?

eaglehelang said:

Those who cant, go for the 4T & 4S. If the 4 Loop & 4F are easier according to the code of points, why do the men straight go down to doing 4T and/or 4S after failing their 4 Lutz attempts?

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Do they though? I thought the majority of skaters starts out with either 4T or 4S, I guess because both have the least amount of revolutions among all the quads, making them closest to triples.

eaglehelang said:

b) if the 4 Loop is easier, why has no lady successfully land it yet? Even the ambitious Trusova who wants to make history by landing all the quads(except 4A)?
Trusova & Anna S could land a 4Lutz, pre rotated or not is another issue.

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Again, one possible explanation is, that they initially went for the biggest point getter, the 4Lz. Especially given the fact that Sambo 70 is known to maximise their skaters’ BVs.

And, as has already been mentioned, they might have worked a lot more on the Lutz in general, because even amongst triples it always had the highest BV.

And since Flip and Lutz are more similar to each other than Loop vs. Flip/Lutz, it’s also plausible, that based on similar jump mechanics learning 4F next would be easier or faster (plus there was still the little 0,5 point difference in BV between 4Lo and 4F of course).
With Anna especially, since she didn’t even bother with 4T or 4S in competition (she initially trained a 4T though I think) so it looks like she was just working her way down the scale of values.

(I thought the reason we haven’t seen Sasha even attempt a 4Lo yet is, that she was struggling with the upkeep of all her other quads, that she had already landed at some point. Plus, a more important goal was landing the 3A, since she has to do one Axel type jump in both programs, so the 2A is holding her back points-wise against all the 3A-jumping women. Landing a 4Lo is not a priority right now.)

And I disagree that the severe pre-rotation on their Flips and Lutzes is just 'another issue'. I assume it has a lot to do with both of them being able to do those difficult jumps. Same with Alysa and maybe Young You as well (? I haven’t paid attention to her 4Lz).

eaglehelang said:

A 'harder' element is supposed to rarity, like some of the elements Simone Biles does. Only Simone Biles can execute them.

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But we can’t with all certainty make the claim that only few skaters can execute a 4Lo, because few skaters in general have ever trained one, and we don’t know the reason for that (lower BV? Difficulty level? More comfortable with toe jumps i.e. personal preference?).

NadezhdaNadya said:

I think that he was rather following a sequence. First he jumped a 4 Toe loop, then a 4 Salchow, then a 4 Loop and then a 4 Lutz. (He has a problem with his flip.) After the 4 Lutz he got injured and was nervous to repeat the jump afterwards for some time. The end of the story.

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I don’t know. Whenever I watch some of his old programs, his 3Lz looks pretty wonky too, at times (off-axis). So I always assumed that’s part of the reason he initially wasn’t too keen on doing a 4Lz and chose 4Lo instead.

1111bm said:

I don’t know. Whenever I watch some of his old programs, his 3Lz looks pretty wonky too, at times (off-axis). So I always assumed that’s part of the reason he initially wasn’t too keen on doing a 4Lz and chose 4Lo instead.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wUPLUsOxL4 - here is a good example. The triple axel (difficult jump) was fairly on axis, and at the most a slight lean which most people have.
The 3Lz was very forward

Question: in what season did this rule begin: Layback spins no longer need the beilmann position in order to achieve a level 4. ?

Bluediamonds09 said:

Question: in what season did this rule begin: Layback spins no longer need the beilmann position in order to achieve a level 4. ?

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Let's see. Difficult Entrance, lowered free leg, layback side, haircutter.
Seems like its always been this way.

1111bm said:

I don’t know. Whenever I watch some of his old programs, his 3Lz looks pretty wonky too, at times (off-axis). So I always assumed that’s part of the reason he initially wasn’t too keen on doing a 4Lz and chose 4Lo instead.

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And that's a typical misunderstanding. His 3lz was "wonky" BECAUSE he practiced the 4lz and it messed with his technique. Lately he had some issues with the 3A, and we know it's his strongest jump. We also know the issue began since he started practicing the 4A.

Gabby30 said:

And that's a typical misunderstanding. His 3lz was "wonky" BECAUSE he practiced the 4lz and it messed with his technique. Lately he had some issues with the 3A, and we know it's his strongest jump. We also know the issue began since he started practicing the 4A.

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I posted example from 2010 (when he was a junior).
During his pre-orser years he often had lean on 3Lz (back when he just started to try 4T in competition).
His 3Lz has always been worse than his 3A in juniors, and fixed it with Orser. Then at 2014-15 it went wonky again, probably due to training 4Lz.

kolyadafan2002 said:

I posted example from 2010 (when he was a junior).
During his pre-orser years he often had lean on 3Lz (back when he just started to try 4T in competition).
His 3Lz has always been worse than his 3A in juniors, and fixed it with Orser. Then at 2014-15 it went wonky again, probably due to training 4Lz.

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The lean on his lutz is an ongoing problem. It was evident in his 3Z at the GPF (the commentator even mentioned it). https://youtu.be/l5BFnQrgWBQ

Same issue in his FS at Japanese Nationals. https://youtu.be/dPU4IA-n2y0

Bluediamonds09 said:

Question: in what season did this rule begin: Layback spins no longer need the beilmann position in order to achieve a level 4. ?

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The ladies can achieve a Level 4 on a layback spin without the Biellmann position, I believe since the very beginning. It's just that achieving the Biellmann is an extra feature specifically for the layback spin which is why we see it so often there (in my opinion, far too much, but that's besides the point).

1111bm said:

I assume you mean, why haven’t more skaters trained and attempted a 4Lo in competition.
(because I’m not actually sure there have been more failed attempts at landing a 4Lo relative to 4Lz?)

Out of the ones who have at least attempted 4Lo once in competition, did really that many of them ditch it?
Yuzuru hasn’t. Neither has Daniel? Shoma has stuck with it for some time, no? Might bring it back, too, especially should he now start receiving somewhat lower GOE on his 4F. I believe he also hasn’t done 4F or 4S either for certain periods of time after the Olympics?

Matteo had just gotten comfortable with his 4T, 4Lo was his second quad I think? So not only was he introducing a new quad in his programs, this also meant he had to land an additional one on the whole. Once he started having problems with consistency, it was only reasonable to drop the newest jump in his arsenal, because most likely it’s gonna be the least stable for him. Doesn't mean he’s not gonna revisit it next season or at some point later in his career (unless he ruled that out in some interview?).

Alexei has been back and forth between 4F and 4Lo I believe? I don’t think he’s ditched it entirely.

It’s also worth noting, that none of these guys (Shoma, Matteo, Alexei) is now jumping a 4Lz instead.
(might be working on it though, for all I know)

Boyang tried to incorporate a 4Lo into his repertoire at the start of the 18/19 season, but quickly let go of that plan. But to be fair, at that time he started struggling with executing his 'old' quads, never mind adding a new one. It makes sense that he would first try to stabilise the ones that he was already comfortable with in the past. The one time he did a 4Lo during actual competition, it was the only quad he landed successfully on that day though.

ETA: Boyang also attempted a 4Lo at 4CC 2017 (UR and fall). Worth noting: He had only done 4 quad programs until then (if I'm not mistaken) and this was the first time he went for 5 quads, introducing the 4Lo. Very ambitious of course, upgrading from 4-5 and attempting a new jump for the first time in international comp.
Also makes you wonder, given the old repetition rules... why didn't he simply repeat his money jump 4Lz? Or the 4S even (lower BV than 4Lo and 4Lz, but still)? He didn't need the 4Lo for a 5 quad program and both 4Lz or 4S would be seemingly easier options.

Nathan first acquired 4T and then 4S, I assume as a sort of 'entry level' quads, by the same logic that T and S usually get taught first among all jumps.
Next, probably based on his preference for toe jumps (he doesn’t like Loop in general) he went for 4F and 4Lz. Or maybe it was the higher BV. Or both, who knows.
The following season he introduced the 4Lo, did it successfully twice in comp, then ditched it for the time being. He didn’t really need it after all, since with the old repetition rules he could still do a 6 quad program without it. And it was the Olympic season, so you’d wanna play it safe. Why burden himself with a fifth type of quad, when juggling many different types of quads at the same time is challenging in itself, and the 4Lo was probably the least stable one (either because Loop is generally a weak jump for him or because it was a new addition).
Over the next two seasons he went to college and trained mostly without his coach. So he was just trying to maintain the jumps he had been actively doing at the time, not even doing 4S for most of the 18/19 season, never mind adding back the 4Lo under those circumstances. Plus, he didn’t need it because he wasn’t doing more than 5 quads in a program.
Nevertheless, from what he’s been saying during interviews, he always wanted to bring it back at some point (I assume when he’s back with his coach full-time).

Did I forget someone?



Do they though? I thought the majority of skaters starts out with either 4T or 4S, I guess because both have the least amount of revolutions among all the quads, making them closest to triples.


Again, one possible explanation is, that they initially went for the biggest point getter, the 4Lz. Especially given the fact that Sambo 70 is known to maximise their skaters’ BVs.

And, as has already been mentioned, they might have worked a lot more on the Lutz in general, because even amongst triples it always had the highest BV.

And since Flip and Lutz are more similar to each other than Loop vs. Flip/Lutz, it’s also plausible, that based on similar jump mechanics learning 4F next would be easier or faster (plus there was still the little 0,5 point difference in BV between 4Lo and 4F of course).
With Anna especially, since she didn’t even bother with 4T or 4S in competition (she initially trained a 4T though I think) so it looks like she was just working her way down the scale of values.

(I thought the reason we haven’t seen Sasha even attempt a 4Lo yet is, that she was struggling with the upkeep of all her other quads, that she had already landed at some point. Plus, a more important goal was landing the 3A, since she has to do one Axel type jump in both programs, so the 2A is holding her back points-wise against all the 3A-jumping women. Landing a 4Lo is not a priority right now.)

And I disagree that the severe pre-rotation on their Flips and Lutzes is just 'another issue'. I assume it has a lot to do with both of them being able to do those difficult jumps. Same with Alysa and maybe Young You as well (? I haven’t paid attention to her 4Lz).

But we can’t with all certainty make the claim that only few skaters can execute a 4Lo, because few skaters in general have ever trained one, and we don’t know the reason for that (lower BV? Difficulty level? More comfortable with toe jumps i.e. personal preference?).

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1) Ditching 4Loop to me means they are not performing it anymore for more than 1 year.
If I recall correctly, Shoma has not put the 4Loop in competition after the Olympics. With the rule change with harsher penalties on falls and Shoma falls on the 4 Loop most often.
Shoma has stated in interview/s that he tried the 4Lutz in training, not successful as yet.

Boyang after that one attempt, did not try anymore in competition. I vaguely remember Boyang commenting on 4 Loop(in chinese) but lazy to find back the media.

I do not follow Alexei & Matteo closely, not sure if they said anything in interviews, English language/translated interviews at least.

2) This was a reference to Mikhail Kolyada. He did 'planned fall' 4Lutz up to 2018 Olympics. After that, he did not attempt 4F or 4Loop , which is according to the points "easier" than 4 Lutz. Went back down to just 4T, 4S.

3) For the ladies, the quad craze has just started. What I meant another issue on pre rotation is - its another discussion on the q, e ! and what not rules.
Cos the other forumers have argued on pre rotation , the degree of pre rotation, wrong edges & such. And lots of comments on Flutz, Floop, etc.

4) Coming from other sports, it's supposed to be the standard that higher difficulty, higher points. Across the board.
Or more unique, less athletes perform it(Mo Salto element in gymnastics).

We hear "He will perform this dive with 3.8 difficulty. Only so & so has done this dive before" Then a retired diver will be asked what makes that dive so hard. Only 2 divers attempted 3.8 difficulty for 10 meter finals in 2019 WC. Only the World Champion did it well(above 90 pts).
I have seen earlier years when a Russian diver attempted this 3.8 difficulty at WC or Olympics. Even dominate China dared not try it. Everyone was wow, can he do it?

We dont hear Tom, dick, harrys successfully performing a 3.8 difficulty dive but less athletes successfully executing a 3.6 difficulty dive. It's the other way round.
Same goes with other Olympic sports.

frida80 said:

Simone Biles is insanely talented. However, in the double double dismount from the beam, the reason they devalued the score was because it was considered dangerous. She’s 144cm. Shorter than the average gymnast, so they have a point. They do give her the points on the triple double on the first floor.

Now that’s points really equal and Moreno men focus on their third quad we’ll probably see more attempts. And failures, because quads are notoriously hard and have ruined many a men’s FS competition. It’s not like we haven’t watched most men attempting 4Lz’s fail tons of the time.

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My point is in sports, it's supposed to be the higher the difficulty of the element, the higher the points. The fewer people can perform it.
Say in bars, the commentator says "This gymnast is one of the few performing this element other than Aliya Mustafina" Mustafina is the 2X Olympic champ in bars, that speaks for something in the difficulty of her execution.
Yes, I know abt elements deemed being dangerous like Mo Salto. Which garnered a lot criticism from China back then for trying to hold back their athlete.

Same goes for diving. We dont see 6 to 7 men performing a 3.8 difficulty dive. Lots of men perform a 3.6 difficulty dive but only 2 during 2019 WC finals.

Even in sports involving competitors, its "that shot was incredible, very few can return a smash that way".

We see lots of men performing 4T& 4S. By right, following the code of points, the 4 Lutz supposed to have the least number of athletes successfully landing it.
But voila, both the men and the ladies have landed a 4Lutz.
If it's harder(regardless of personal preference of skater), its supposed to lower % of success. 20 men attempt it, maybe 4 men successful(20%), not 8,9 10 men.
The 4Lutz has the highest number of successful landings, then 4F, last 4Loop(Skatingscores.com has the stats I think).

eaglehelang said:

My point is in sports, it's supposed to be the higher the difficulty of the element, the higher the points. The fewer people can perform it.
Say in bars, the commentator says "This gymnast is one of the few performing this element other than Aliya Mustafina" Mustafina is the 2X Olympic champ in bars, that speaks for something in the difficulty of her execution.
Yes, I know abt elements deemed being dangerous like Mo Salto. Which garnered a lot criticism from China back then for trying to hold back their athlete.

Same goes for diving. We dont see 6 to 7 men performing a 3.8 difficulty dive. Lots of men perform a 3.6 difficulty dive but only 2 during 2019 WC finals.

Even in sports involving competitors, its "that shot was incredible, very few can return a smash that way".

We see lots of men performing 4T& 4S. By right, following the code of points, the 4 Lutz supposed to have the least number of athletes successfully landing it.
But voila, both the men and the ladies have landed a 4Lutz.
If it's harder(regardless of personal preference of skater), its supposed to lower % of success. 20 men attempt it, maybe 4 men successful(20%), not 8,9 10 men.
The 4Lutz has the highest number of successful landings, then 4F, last 4Loop(Skatingscores.com has the stats I think).

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Skating is entirely different from those sports. In a FS you can do a maximum of seven jumping passes. The majority of skates don’t need more than two quads to be competitive. As such, it makes sense for men and now ladies to target the highest scoring jumps. Sadly, the loop just isn’t worth the effort. If you need only two or three quads it’s best like Sasha to first get easier quads like the 4T and then focus on the highest scoring one. The higher difficulty one will depend on if the skater is more comfortable with their lutz or flip. Shona was more comfortable with his flip. Alysa with her Lutz.

The thing is, no skater really needs a loop yet. If all men needed four quads the loop would definitely be one of the number on advanced quads, because most skater favor either the flip or lutz. But right now, most men don’t need it to medal at the on the GP or 4CC/Euros.

It’s impossible to gauge what is the hardest ways when most men can’t even do quads. However, if it’s like triples then the Lutz is still the hardest.

One should also consider probability because some of ya’ll are overestimating the amount of successful 4Lz attempts. I believe only 11 (13 including ladies) have landed a 4Lz in international competition (includes Juniors) in the nine years since the 4Lz was first landed.* But of how many attempts in 9 years? Of those 13, only half have landed a 4Lz in combination. Ya’ll stop exaggerating!

4Lo and 4F are easier to follow because they were both first landed in 2016. The men that have attempted a 4Lo in international competition since 2016 are Hanyu, Uno, Chen, Krasnozhon, Grassl, Samarin, and Rizzo. Grassl is already landing 4Lo>+ 3T. Only Rizzo doesn’t have a successful attempt yet so 4Lo is already at 86% Six skaters (includes Trusova) have landed the 4F in international competition. It’s been “only” four years and the 4Lo and 4F are looking pretty good in comparison to the more difficult 4Lz.

*And yes, that number includes the dude at Europeans that had the audacity to land a 4Lz in the SP without having a 3A.

YuBluByMe said:

One should also consider probability because some of ya’ll are overestimating the amount of successful 4Lz attempts. I believe only 10 men have landed 4Lz in international competition (includes Juniors) in the nine years since the 4Lz was first landed. The number I have is 10 (12 if you include the ladies).* But of how many attempts in 9 years? Of those 12, only half have landed a 4Lz in combination. Ya’ll stop exaggerating!

4Lo and 4F are easier to follow because they were both first landed in 2016. The men that have attempted a 4Lo in international competition since 2016 are Hanyu, Uno, Chen, Krasnozhon, Grassl and Rizzo. Grassl is already landing 4Lo>+ 3T. Only Rizzo doesn’t have a successful attempt yet so 4Lo is already at 83%. Five skaters (includes Trusova) have landed the 4F in international competition. It’s been “only” four years and the 4Lo and 4F are looking pretty good in comparison to the more difficult 4Lz.

*And yes, that number includes the dude at Europeans that had the audacity to land a 4Lz in the SP without having a 3A.

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Alexander Samarin landed 4Lo in international competition too.
Boyang landed/attempted it in an early national this year.

If we're talking about practice we can include Sergei Voronov and Kevin Reynolds and Andrei Lazukin and Brandon Mroz and probably 5 or 6 more people who have filmed one in practice) - just on top of my head Artur Daniellan, and another japanese skater other than shoma and hanyu. also Konstantin MENSHOV

kolyadafan2002 said:

Alexander Samarin landed 4Lo in international competition too.
Boyang landed/attempted it in an early national this year.

If we're talking about practice we can include Sergei Voronov and Kevin Reynolds and Andrei Lazukin and Brandon Mroz and probably 5 or 6 more people who have filmed one in practice)

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Thanks! I forgot about Jin, but didn’t know about Samarin but I want to include successful attempts in international competition only. I’ll edit my post.

YuBluByMe said:

Thank! I forgot about Jin, but didn’t know about Samarin but I want to include successful attempts in international competition only. I’ll edit my post.

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Sergei Voronov, Kevin Reynolds, Andrei Lazukin all attempted in international competition.
Sergei and Kevin both got 4Lo<
Andrei Lazukin attempted once in international competition and got <<, but has done clean at domestic events: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srwu5BZVnUg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdHk7d_wCZY

Gordei Gorshkov has also done 4Lo< in international competition

whilst I'm at it Kazuki Tomono had landed 4Lo in practice clean, and was looking to introduce it this season.