Well, by the same argument,…
I feel you kinda missed the point of my earlier post.
My argument was, that what’s considered difficult is ultimately relative.
And that no matter our opinion on which jump is more difficult, and even if let’s say 99,9 % of all skaters proclaim that it’s in fact 4Lo, the few select ones who actually chose 4Lo over 4Lz (and sometimes 4F) despite the difference in BV, did almost certainly find 4Lo easier. So from their perspective they’re not actually doing the more difficult jump. And that there’s some irony in it when fans sort of advocate for those skaters' 'rights', claiming they're doing the more difficult element, when of all skaters, they are the ones this doesn't apply to.
why hasnt more men land 4 Loop successfully? For those who have, why did a lot of them ditch it? Didnt Nathan Chen stated just last year at GPF that the 4 Loop is scary?
I assume you mean, why haven’t more skaters trained and attempted a 4Lo in competition.
(because I’m not actually sure there have been more failed attempts at landing a 4Lo relative to 4Lz?)
Out of the ones who have at least attempted 4Lo once in competition, did really that many of them ditch it?
Yuzuru hasn’t. Neither has Daniel? Shoma has stuck with it for some time, no? Might bring it back, too, especially should he now start receiving somewhat lower GOE on his 4F. I believe he also hasn’t done 4F or 4S either for certain periods of time after the Olympics?
Matteo had just gotten comfortable with his 4T, 4Lo was his second quad I think? So not only was he introducing a new quad in his programs, this also meant he had to land an additional one on the whole. Once he started having problems with consistency, it was only reasonable to drop the newest jump in his arsenal, because most likely it’s gonna be the least stable for him. Doesn't mean he’s not gonna revisit it next season or at some point later in his career (unless he ruled that out in some interview?).
Alexei has been back and forth between 4F and 4Lo I believe? I don’t think he’s ditched it entirely.
It’s also worth noting, that none of these guys (Shoma, Matteo, Alexei) is now jumping a 4Lz instead.
(might be working on it though, for all I know)
Boyang tried to incorporate a 4Lo into his repertoire at the start of the 18/19 season, but quickly let go of that plan. But to be fair, at that time he started struggling with executing his 'old' quads, never mind adding a new one. It makes sense that he would first try to stabilise the ones that he was already comfortable with in the past. The one time he did a 4Lo during actual competition, it was the only quad he landed successfully on that day though.
ETA: Boyang also attempted a 4Lo at 4CC 2017 (UR and fall). Worth noting: He had only done 4 quad programs until then (if I'm not mistaken) and this was the first time he went for 5 quads, introducing the 4Lo. Very ambitious of course, upgrading from 4-5 and attempting a new jump for the first time in international comp.
Also makes you wonder, given the old repetition rules... why didn't he simply repeat his money jump 4Lz? Or the 4S even (lower BV than 4Lo and 4Lz, but still)? He didn't need the 4Lo for a 5 quad program and both 4Lz or 4S would be seemingly easier options.
Nathan first acquired 4T and then 4S, I assume as a sort of 'entry level' quads, by the same logic that T and S usually get taught first among all jumps.
Next, probably based on his preference for toe jumps (he doesn’t like Loop in general) he went for 4F and 4Lz. Or maybe it was the higher BV. Or both, who knows.
The following season he introduced the 4Lo, did it successfully twice in comp, then ditched it for the time being. He didn’t really need it after all, since with the old repetition rules he could still do a 6 quad program without it. And it was the Olympic season, so you’d wanna play it safe. Why burden himself with a fifth type of quad, when juggling many different types of quads at the same time is challenging in itself, and the 4Lo was probably the least stable one (either because Loop is generally a weak jump for him or because it was a new addition).
Over the next two seasons he went to college and trained mostly without his coach. So he was just trying to maintain the jumps he had been actively doing at the time, not even doing 4S for most of the 18/19 season, never mind adding back the 4Lo under those circumstances. Plus, he didn’t need it because he wasn’t doing more than 5 quads in a program.
Nevertheless, from what he’s been saying during interviews, he always wanted to bring it back at some point (I assume when he’s back with his coach full-time).
Did I forget someone?
Those who cant, go for the 4T & 4S. If the 4 Loop & 4F are easier according to the code of points, why do the men straight go down to doing 4T and/or 4S after failing their 4 Lutz attempts?
Do they though? I thought the majority of skaters starts out with either 4T or 4S, I guess because both have the least amount of revolutions among all the quads, making them closest to triples.
b) if the 4 Loop is easier, why has no lady successfully land it yet? Even the ambitious Trusova who wants to make history by landing all the quads(except 4A)?
Trusova & Anna S could land a 4Lutz, pre rotated or not is another issue.
Again, one possible explanation is, that they initially went for the biggest point getter, the 4Lz. Especially given the fact that Sambo 70 is known to maximise their skaters’ BVs.
And, as has already been mentioned, they might have worked a lot more on the Lutz in general, because even amongst triples it always had the highest BV.
And since Flip and Lutz are more similar to each other than Loop vs. Flip/Lutz, it’s also plausible, that based on similar jump mechanics learning 4F next would be easier or faster (plus there was still the little 0,5 point difference in BV between 4Lo and 4F of course).
With Anna especially, since she didn’t even bother with 4T or 4S in competition (she initially trained a 4T though I think) so it looks like she was just working her way down the scale of values.
(I thought the reason we haven’t seen Sasha even attempt a 4Lo yet is, that she was struggling with the upkeep of all her other quads, that she had already landed at some point. Plus, a more important goal was landing the 3A, since she has to do one Axel type jump in both programs, so the 2A is holding her back points-wise against all the 3A-jumping women. Landing a 4Lo is not a priority right now.)
And I disagree that the severe pre-rotation on their Flips and Lutzes is just 'another issue'. I assume it has a lot to do with both of them being able to do those difficult jumps. Same with Alysa and maybe Young You as well (? I haven’t paid attention to her 4Lz).
A 'harder' element is supposed to rarity, like some of the elements Simone Biles does. Only Simone Biles can execute them.
But we can’t with all certainty make the claim that only few skaters can execute a 4Lo, because few skaters in general have ever trained one, and we don’t know the reason for that (lower BV? Difficulty level? More comfortable with toe jumps i.e. personal preference?).
