New ISU rules for the upcoming season

[lesnar001]

Wow. How weird.
Also 3Lz=3F
4Lo=4F=4Lz

As for Javi, he does not pre-rotate a la Shcherbakova. I read in another figure skating forum that the new rule about pre-rotation is going to be called the Shcherbakova rule. (I wonder If she read it already, hm?)

Jeesh. I've accepted the fact that you are obsessed with the "perfect lutz" and insulting Anna S at every turn.

But "wondering"(maybe more like HOPING?) she reads something insulting about herself is a little too much.

 

[sheetz]

On a related note, seeing the old BV of the 4Lz from the last quad and the bigger point difference to the 4Lo, makes it even more plausible that this was one big reason why so many skaters went straight for the quad Lutz back then. And even when the rule change happened and it was devalued the most relative to the other quads, there was still a difference in points that remained. And of course, all those skaters that had already been working on it for a long time (and probably neglecting their Loop in general, I would think), weren’t suddenly gonna switch plans.

It's not just the difference between 4Lz and 4Lo. Coming up through juniors all the skaters know you need 3Lz to reach the top so naturally by the time they learn quads a lot of skaters are going to be comfortable with the Lutz technique. OTOH 3Lo is probably the least commonly jumped triple by the top men.

 

[nussnacker]

Jeesh. I've accepted the fact that you are obsessed with the "perfect lutz" and insulting Anna S at every turn.

But "wondering"(maybe more like HOPING?) she reads something insulting about herself is a little too much.

I know right... what’s the point of making it sound like Anna is some sort of criminal who should be ashamed of herself. Like, what’s the point of that?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I'm not of the opinion that the rules post Olympics were designed in any way to hamper Hanyu. I can see though how they might be less advantageous to him, and I think the key to that lies in consistency.

Hanyu always wants to do something new. I admire the guy looking at his career, because when he turned senior he did like one quad in the free. Now he can do five at a push, despite having aged by nearly a decade.

The problem with adding new tech all the time though, is that it makes him slightly less consistent. It takes a while to stabilise a jump. Occasionally Hanyu just has an off day. In the previous quad this was fine (though of course it has cost him tournaments). The 2014-2018 scoring system specifically rewarded risk-taking. Falling on a rotated quad could still get you about the same amount of points as doing a mediocre triple, and landing a clean quad netted you a million points. Combine this with high PCS in Hanyu's case, and you have got a golden combination.

The pre-Olympic scoring system is in part why there has been such an explosion in men's quad jumps, the risk was almost always worth the reward.

The +5/-5 system is a lot harsher on jump mistakes, and focuses more on quality execution. This benefits Hanyu when he is having a good day, but can be punishing if he makes even one mistake, unlike before. The hit he takes in GOE is just huge, especially for someone like Hanyu, whose biggest weapon is getting +GOE for how he executes his jumps.

In the ladies for example, I don't think Kostornaia would have stood a chance against Trusova if they were competing under the old rules, purely because the scoring system favoured the high TES risk takers. Trusova falling on a 4S in 2017 wouldn't have had the same impact as her doing it now. She would have just offset the damage by landing a successful quad or two. Now it is devastating. Which is why she barely scraped third at Russian nationals.

Agreed. People are acting like the revised system post-Olympics is wrong and the BV was against Hanyu etc... but the reason he lost Worlds/GPF/Nationals was because of mistakes HE made and also because of Chen/Uno delivering.

The system/scale of values didn’t cause Hanyu to fall at Japanese Nationals or pop the salchow at Worlds SP or pop his axel at the GPF. Nor did they cause Chen/Uno to skate well. The system didn’t make him choose to do an easier SP with a quad salchow and toe when he’s capable of a quad loop (and sometimes a lutz). He made a concerted choice to do 4T+3A SEQ knowing the rules state it’s worth 80% - it’s not like he suddenly finds that out after the fact and loses marks.

People can complain about BV and technique issues ad nauseum but if the skater messes up - and they have formidable competitors - they won’t and shouldn’t win.

No skater is entitled to win a competition just by showing up - they have to skate.

 

[1111bm]

He made a concerted choice to do 4A+3A SEQ knowing the rules state it’s worth 80% - it’s not like he suddenly finds that out after the fact and loses marks.

:eeking:

It's not just the difference between 4Lz and 4Lo. Coming up through juniors all the skaters know you need 3Lz to reach the top so naturally by the time they learn quads a lot of skaters are going to be comfortable with the Lutz technique. OTOH 3Lo is probably the least commonly jumped triple by the top men.

Exactly, that is my impression too.
I just thought of another reason that might make the 4Lo less 'attractive'. I think compared to the other jumps, it's the one that notoriously doesn't have a lot of length. And similar to the Lutz, there's a bigger risk of ending up somewhat off-axis, I think? (in the case of the Lutz it's due to the counter-rotation of the take-off though)

So I think it's fair to say, that the Loop has a tendency to look a bit more wonky and less impressive compared to other jumps, which would result in a lower GOE -> less worth working on it.

I'm not of the opinion that the rules post Olympics were designed in any way to hamper Hanyu. I can see though how they might be less advantageous to him, and I think the key to that lies in consistency.

Hanyu always wants to do something new. I admire the guy looking at his career, because when he turned senior he did like one quad in the free. Now he can do five at a push, despite having aged by nearly a decade.

The problem with adding new tech all the time though, is that it makes him slightly less consistent. It takes a while to stabilise a jump. Occasionally Hanyu just has an off day. In the previous quad this was fine (though of course it has cost him tournaments). The 2014-2018 scoring system specifically rewarded risk-taking. Falling on a rotated quad could still get you about the same amount of points as doing a mediocre triple, and landing a clean quad netted you a million points. Combine this with high PCS in Hanyu's case, and you have got a golden combination.

The pre-Olympic scoring system is in part why there has been such an explosion in men's quad jumps, the risk was almost always worth the reward.

The +5/-5 system is a lot harsher on jump mistakes, and focuses more on quality execution. This benefits Hanyu when he is having a good day, but can be punishing if he makes even one mistake, unlike before. The hit he takes in GOE is just huge, especially for someone like Hanyu, whose biggest weapon is getting +GOE for how he executes his jumps.

IMO, the things you point out are exactly the reason the new rules would benefit someone like Yuzuru, so it's funny you feel it's rather the opposite.

All the men, especially the more quads they attempt, struggle with consistency and bad days. So with the new rules being more harsh on jump mistakes, this wouldn't punish Yuzuru more than any of the other skaters. Especially when considering, that contrary to Yuzuru, most won't get (somewhat) saved by their PCS or their GOE on all the other elements and the jumps they still get right.

So I would still maintain, that it was the young upcoming quadsters, whose strategy was to rack up points with quantity instead of quality, their high BV jumps oftentimes being their only weapon, who would suffer the most and who the new rules were designed to 'rein in'.

And I wouldn't say that getting +GOE on his quads is Yuzuru's biggest weapon, it's one of many. So he still has the generally high quality of all his other elements to fall back on, even on an off-day.

Plus, Yuzuru is also still among those skaters with the highest amount of quads overall. So even with some mistakes, he's still guaranteed a not-so-shabby amount of points simply based on quantity and BV, even after the rule change.

(Unless !! he singles or doubles a jump or doesn't do a combo... that's like a death blow to every skater's score... and I think many don't realise how many points such mistakes cost -> see the disbelief and outrage of many fans over Yuruzu's "low" tech score at GPF '19, despite him doing 5 quads...)

 

[shine]

Look, Sasha Cohen unquestionably had the best jumps of her generation, mmmkay?

This is as bizarre as someone who earlier said Zagitova has great technique on the lutz.

 

[cohen-esque]

This is as bizarre as someone who earlier said Zagitova has great technique on the lutz.

*looks at username*

/s

 

[Miller]

One potential reason for a 4Lo being so much harder relative to a Lutz compared with a 3Lo and 3Lz.

Because it's OK to pre-rotate more on a Loop, about half a turn, you only need to do about 2.25 revolutions in the air to get full credit for a 3Lo. However for a 3Lz (a well executed one) you need to do about 2.5 revolutions. Difference between the two is about 11%.

However for a 4Lo you need to do about 3.25 revolutions in the air, but for a 4Lz you only need to do 3.5 revolutions, difference between the two is now only 8%.

Hence it may be that the lack of pre-rotation for a Lutz counts for less the more revolutions you do, and in fact a 4Lz and 4Lo should have about the same Base Value - I've even wondered if the 4Lo should be higher, the empirical evidence certainly suggests so given the lack of 4Lo skaters compared with 4Lz ones.

 

[1111bm]

One potential reason for a 4Lo being so much harder relative to a Lutz compared with a 3Lo and 3Lz.

Because it's OK to pre-rotate more on a Loop, about half a turn, you only need to do about 2.25 revolutions in the air to get full credit for a 3Lo. However for a 3Lz (a well executed one) you need to do about 2.5 revolutions. Difference between the two is about 11%.

However for a 4Lo you need to do about 3.25 revolutions in the air, but for a 4Lz you only need to do 3.5 revolutions, difference between the two is now only 8%.

Hence it may be that the lack of pre-rotation for a Lutz counts for less the more revolutions you do, and in fact a 4Lz and 4Lo should have about the same Base Value - ...

Not following your logic here. Obviously the 0.25 difference in revolutions that you postulate, will make up a smaller ratio of a jump, the more revolutions a jump has as a whole.

But why should that matter or rather, make a practical difference to a skater, who has to get all those revolutions in? For a skater, the difference between a 3Lo and a 4Lo, and the difference between a 3Lz and a 4Lz, is both times 360° that they have to add.

Going by your logic, upgrading from a single to a double is more difficult, than upgrading from a double to a triple. And the latter is more difficult, than upgrading a triple to a quad.

Since you have to add extra 360° for every one of those upgrades, it means that when going from 2Lo to 3Lo, you have to add 80 % of the previous revolutions on top. But you only have to turn 44,44 % more going from 3Lo to 4Lo. (you'd get similar numbers, if not slightly higher ones, for the Salchow as well).

The numbers are even lower when doing the same calculations for a Lutz (66,67 % and 40 % respectively). Does that mean adding revolutions in a Lutz is easier, than doing the same for the Loop or Salchow? I don't think so. I'm also sure it's not what a majority of skaters will have experienced (certain exceptions, due to personal preference of jump types, aside).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

:eeking:



Exactly, that is my impression too.
I just thought of another reason that might make the 4Lo less 'attractive'. I think compared to the other jumps, it's the one that notoriously doesn't have a lot of length. And similar to the Lutz, there's a bigger risk of ending up somewhat off-axis, I think? (in the case of the Lutz it's due to the counter-rotation of the take-off though)

So I think it's fair to say, that the Loop has a tendency to look a bit more wonky and less impressive compared to other jumps, which would result in a lower GOE -> less worth working on it.




IMO, the things you point out are exactly the reason the new rules would benefit someone like Yuzuru, so it's funny you feel it's rather the opposite.

All the men, especially the more quads they attempt, struggle with consistency and bad days. So with the new rules being more harsh on jump mistakes, this wouldn't punish Yuzuru more than any of the other skaters. Especially when considering, that contrary to Yuzuru, most won't get (somewhat) saved by their PCS or their GOE on all the other elements and the jumps they still get right.

So I would still maintain, that it was the young upcoming quadsters, whose strategy was to rack up points with quantity instead of quality, their high BV jumps oftentimes being their only weapon, who would suffer the most and who the new rules were designed to 'rein in'.

And I wouldn't say that getting +GOE on his quads is Yuzuru's biggest weapon, it's one of many. So he still has the generally high quality of all his other elements to fall back on, even on an off-day.

Plus, Yuzuru is also still among those skaters with the highest amount of quads overall. So even with some mistakes, he's still guaranteed a not-so-shabby amount of points simply based on quantity and BV, even after the rule change.

(Unless !! he singles or doubles a jump or doesn't do a combo... that's like a death blow to every skater's score... and I think many don't realise how many points such mistakes cost -> see the disbelief and outrage of many fans over Yuruzu's "low" tech score at GPF '19, despite him doing 5 quads...)

LMAO I edited it to 4T+3A. 4A+3A was what he attempted in the GPF practice!

And yes people who whined about the low tech score in spite of doing 5 quads clearly don’t know how scoring works. He did a 4T+2T instead of 4T+3T and he turned a 3A-3A into a popped single. He had a UR 3F with a step out. Those all cost tons of tech points (at least 25 points compared to if he did execute them as planned).

Don’t blame the judges, don’t blame the system. It was the skater’s mistakes. Regardless, the guy still did 5 quads which is amazing.... but people who gripe that the score should have been higher simply for doing 5 quads are out to lunch.

To all skaters: the system/judges ain’t gonna do your jumps for you! That’s on you, boo!

 

[1111bm]

And yes people who whined about the low tech score in spite of doing 5 quads clearly don’t know how scoring works.

Preach!

He did a 4T+2T instead of 4T+3T and he turned a 3A-3A into a popped single. He had a UR 3F with a step out. Those all cost tons of tech points (at least 25 points compared to if he did execute them as planned).

Yeah, I think for some reason many people don't realise that turning a 3T into a 2T will cost a skater 2,9 points. That's quite a lot (and will weigh even more in the SP with it's lower number of technical elements on a whole).
Never mind not doing a combo at all (which usually happens because the first jumped in a planned combo didn't go well -> already losing points due to low GOE).

Same with singling or doubling a quad... that's basically as if you didn't do a quad at all, i.e. for every doubled quad you can 'scratch' another successful quad, because points-wise it's as if a skater did two triples (more or less of course, depending on jump type and GOE).

 

[Skater Boy]

I find the 4Lo BV increase fair, it's notorious in its difficulty and there aren't many who jump that jump in the first place let alone consistently. With the flips and the lutzes... Well, even more arguing about edge calls is going to arise

I have heard the loop is really har and maybe the hardest the problem is that it isn't consistent. The 4loop is equal to the the quad flip and lutz but the 3 loop is still worth less and if you look at some of the easier jumps you will see the proportion difference between jumps inconsistent point wise to more rotation jumps and vice versa. So it means the scoring system is still hard to understand forget the GOE's bring in more "interpretation from the judges. The thing is that with changes evey year in the value of the same jumps from years ago makes it hard to have any credibility and makes world records useless. Most people won't care or understand they just hear world record but if y ou put it in perspective you can't really compare it with past years to say it is a world record. GOe's , base values, changes in elements, number of jump opportunities, what is a sequence etc, even different attitudes in PCS. Remember great skaters like Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen et al would never get 9.5 in pcs.

 

[Skater Boy]

Preach!




Yeah, I think for some reason many people don't realise that turning a 3T into a 2T will cost a skater 2,9 points. That's quite a lot (and will weigh even more in the SP with it's lower number of technical elements on a whole).
Never mind not doing a combo at all (which usually happens because the first jumped in a planned combo didn't go well -> already losing points due to low GOE).

Same with singling or doubling a quad... that's basically as if you didn't do a quad at all, i.e. for every doubled quad you can 'scratch' another successful quad, because points-wise it's as if a skater did two triples (more or less of course, depending on jump type and GOE).

And don't forget the lost GOE's which of course can be far greater on a more difficult jump.

 

[icybear]

ISU doesnt seem to understand how edges work. If they had hammered down on flutzes then there wouldnt be so many of them flying around everywhere. This is unfair on people who has a proper lutz edge

 

[frida80]

]I think a big part of the problem is that people don’t understand that the new quad rule lowered the BV which can be made up by only by landing a clean jump. It also heavily penalized skaters for messy or poor attempts. Before a fall on a fully rotated 4Lz could still outscore a clean 3Lz. After the 2018-2019 rule change, a 4Lz would lose half its value when you fall with a 1 point deduction down to 4.75, while excellent 3Lz could nab 8.85. So it would be better to skate clean with well delivered jumps than struggle with inconsistent jumps. It best benefited skaters like Jason and requires more strategizing, planning and pragmatism. It also benefited super consistent skaters.

Sadly it didn’t benefit skaters with excellent lutz technique like Alexia or Tomoe, since it doesn’t specifically spell out that techinique should be rewarded. That’s always been vague and technique can be different for different coaches, so I assume IJS wants to be flexible. However, it means skaters without clear outside edges that don’t get called are being rewarded at their expense.


I feel like these new rules for 2020-21 are haphazard ways to address various complaints without a lot of forethought. None of them will change things much for the Sambo 70, since they know how to plan for rule changes the best. When backloading was limited, they just had skaters put their hardest jumps and combos in the 2nd half. I think that targeting complaints rather than looking at issues as a whole will only create an endless tweaks that only penalizes all skaters that will have to struggle adjust their technique to meet these new demands.

It’s simply not fair to sudden say skaters that land exactly on the 90° spot are now < in July and expect skaters to fix it in just two months like in 2018-2019. If the rules previously stated the 90° mark was clean, and skater learned how to jump that way adhearing to that rule, then they should allow a year minimum to fix that technique. Now they’ve changed it again. Now if your not on the 0° mark you’ll lose your GOE. Almost no skaters rotate that much. It will once again take years to fix, but skaters only a have a few months to fix. Just like changing the technical minimums in the middle of the season, IJS does not understand they have to be more timely with changes in rules that will take time to change the technique.

Furthermore, saying that there is no difference between the difficulty of the 3F and 3Lz is mind blowing. Of course the lutz is more difficult that the flip. The reason why it’s done more often is because IJS rewards lutzes. However it doesn’t call flat edges often, so it that’s the real problem. Calling them would nullify the GOE advantage and encourage more skater to fix the edge. Of course “someone” complained about edge calls received by their skaters, ending that idea...:sarcasm:

How in the world can we honestly say what quad is most difficult when most men can’t do more than one or two? It makes sense that skaters would prioritize the quads with the highest BV to increase their competitive advantage. Unlike triples, where someone would need them all to be competitive. We know that in ladies it’s common to include the either the 3F or 3Lz in combo and the 3Lo, to avoid losing GOE on an edge call. From that information, the loop is clearly easier for most skaters because the edge is less of an issue than their “other” jump. I think it will take maybe 2-3 Olympic quads to know what jump is truly the most difficult as more skaters become more accustommed to 4 and 5 Quad FS.

However, I’m more ambivalent about this change. It won’t change much for most skaters. Maybe this identical BV will encourage more people to give the 4Lo attention than skipping straight to the 4Lz. They could focus on edges can nully the GOE advantage, but clearly that’s too much to ask.

 

[flanker]

while good 3Lz can nab 8.85

Just a little note. Not anymore, according to the new rules theoretical maximum for 3Lz is 7.95, just like for 3F.

 

[frida80]

Just a little note. Not anymore, according to the new rules theoretical maximum for 3Lz is 7.95, just like for 3F.

I was talking about 2018-2020. I’ll adjust my post.

 

[flanker]

I was talking about 2018-2020. I’ll adjust my post.

Oook.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Whilst the jumping mechanics of a 4Lo may be as hard as 4Lz and 4F,
On 4F and 4Lz you have to worry about the edge as well, whereas you cant get penalised on edge on 4Lo.
Therefore 4F and 4Lz should be higher.
Lutz has harder jumping mechanics than 4F due to counterrotation.
4Lz should be harder than 4F.

Out of interest I wonder if a jump like 4Lo from inside edge is possible.
Axel from inside is possible? Or maybe make walley (2W,3W,4W) a valid jumping element?
Maybe 2 more jumping passes for future?

 

[1111bm]

Regardless of which jump is actually more difficult (or just accepting that it comes down to personal preference and will vary for each skater), I’ve always found it kinda inconsistent when certain fans advocate for a higher BV for the 4Lo, claiming that it’s more difficult than the 4Lz. Because as it happens, of course their fave has chosen jumping 4Lo over a 4Lz.

I mean, you gotta ask yourself, why were these poor skaters punishing themselves with the most difficult quad of 'em all. If i'is in fact easier, why didn't they go for the 4Lz, which would’ve earned them more points on top of it? No one’s forcing them to do the harder, less rewarding thing. Certainly not the evil ISU which has concocted such an unfair Scale of Values.
I can only conclude that the Loop is actually easier for the skaters in question, anything else wouldn’t be logical. Which ironically kinda contradicts the whole argument of ‚they're not being rewarded for taking more of a risk by doing the more difficult element‘.