Terri Shivo

chuckm, I'd certainly like to know how you came across that information because that isn't true.

Michael Schiavo and the Schindlers did get therapy for Terri up until Feb of 1993. That's when Michael wouldn't give them money to continue therapy, moved Terri to a nursing home instead of another rehab center as recommended and discontinued all her therapy at that time.

The doctors in the court cases have been: 2 doctors from the Schindlers' side, 2 doctors from Michael's side and one independent doctor appointed by Judge Greer. There was also a guardian ad litem for Terri early on but George Felos had him removed due to bias on Terri's behalf (because he said therapy might help her).

I've never heard that the girlfriend was ever in the picture at the time she suffered the brain injury. It's not any place nor is it on the TBI list that I belong to where the Schindlers' friends keep us updated.


ETA: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151252,00.html

There's a story coming out of Pennsylvania now about a wife who wants to insert a feeding tube in her husband who has Alzheimers and the daughter has filed for an injunction. The biggest difference is that the man has a living will that specifically states no feeding tube. Geez louise.

I sure feel for all of you that have told of your experiences. I had to make the decision for my mother. I also had to make it for my husband. He had the proper papers but they came out and asked me. I started asking what he would be like if we rescued him and the Dr. said "Well, he's going to die of the cancer anyway!" Why hadn't they told me that? So, of course I let him go. A day I will never forget. My biggest nightmare came true.

Thank you all for having the courage to share your very painful stories with us. My heart aches for you, truly. Meg, my deepest condolences.

My husband and I have specific instructions in our Living Trusts that we are not to be kept alive if we are in a vegetative state. This removes this most difficult decision from our daughter's shoulders. However, I envisioned that to be a comatose state, not the state in which I've seen Terri Schiavo on television. In a comatose state, I figured I would not know whether I had food or water and I would not suffer. In Terri's state, it seems that she will suffer greatly by being denied this basic sustenance, and that is so very wrong. I'm not in the medical field so this comes solely from observation, nothing more.

as the body does not have outside nutrition, it burns muscle for food. A substance called ketone is produced which acts to induce endorphins (the body's own internal painkiller). I don't think that Terry Schiavo is either aware of suffering or in pain at all.

bronxgirl said:

as the body does not have outside nutrition, it burns muscle for food. A substance called ketone is produced which acts to induce endorphins (the body's own internal painkiller). I don't think that Terry Schiavo is either aware of suffering or in pain at all.

Click to expand...

You don't THINK Terri is aware or suffering. But you don't KNOW she isn't. The worst case scenario is that Terri IS feeling the pain and will die in pain just so her uncaring husband can get his hands on the money that is funding her care. I find the whole scenario sickening.

chuckm said:

You don't THINK Terri is aware or suffering. But you don't KNOW she isn't. The worst case scenario is that Terri IS feeling the pain and will die in pain just so her uncaring husband can get his hands on the money that is funding her care. I find the whole scenario sickening.

Click to expand...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...4mar24,0,6230804.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Here's an article about the villification of Michael at the hands of the religious right.
BTW, Jeb Bush himself appointed someone to examine all the facts of the case. That person found Michael to be a devoted care giver in the early years, and no evidence as to any of these slanderous allegations about wanting Terri out of the picture.

"Michael Schiavo has vehemently denied the accusations of abuse, greed and heartlessness in interviews and to investigators, and an independent report to Gov. Jeb Bush and the judicial system two years ago said "the evidence is incontrovertible that he gave his heart and soul to her treatment and care."

Click to expand...

There have been studies, though, many of them, about the effect of ketones when feeding tubes are discontinued, and the last poster is correct. I've seen patients like Terri in various levels of coma( not meaning unconscious coma, but according to a scale of functioning) and the effects of ketones when sustenance is removed appears to be peace and euphoria...the deaths I've witnessed as a result of this are very peaceful. I'm not just advocating for the tubes removal, though, because I take her parents into consideration, and as I stated before, I believe that they want her present, in any form. I just wonder if it is a KINDNESS, though. Seeing patients in Terri's state has been very painful for me; it just seems so cruel. And by no means am I saying I know everything, at all, but I really believe any kind of rehabilitation is impossible. I'm just so glad I don't have to make this decision for Terri. Realistic, I am so happy for how things have worked fo your daughter, and I wish her, and you all the best. I DO see Terri as a person, and my opinion is that the essence of Terri is forever locked inside a shell we cannot reach. I think Terri deserves mercy, that's all. Maybe because I've seen situations like Terri's so often, I can't be objective any longer. Megsk8z, I was very moved by your story; I hope you have the peace of knowing that you honored your mothers' life with your decision-God bless.

Ok, here's a question:

I know that Michael believes she wouldn't want to be like this. I know her parents believe the opposite.

However, if the parents are willing to take her home and care for her and Michael has started a new life with another woman, why not bow out gracefully? Why not allow the parents to take over guardianship and take care of her? Then Michael can get on with his life. I wonder how his children are handling all of this as well.

And, chuckm, there is no money. There is no insurance policy. So I still don't understand where you are getting that viewpoint. Michael spent the money on his lawyers.

Despite every doctor's best effort to put our minds at ease, that Terri won't suffer, no one can assure anyone of that unless they've been there.

Thank you guys for your kind words. My daughter is extremely interested in this case as well. Her next door neighbor looks just like Terri and she gets therapy so she's really not understanding why this isn't, and hasn't, happened for Terri at this point. Matter of fact, neither do I.

Someone on tv said that he had sued and received a huge amount but it was almost gone.

On a slight tangent here, but I can't seem to get around two big questions that have formed in my mind... and that leads me to wonder how the group that spear-headed the governmental involvement in this case - (Bush, Frist and the right wing Republicans as well as fundamental Christians) can reconcile these important factors, specifically:
You can't have it both ways. If you truly, sincerely believe in the "sanctity of life", then you shouldn't be supporting automatic assault weapons, death penalties, and invasions of basically unarmed countries resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people. Are some souls simply of more political value than others?

And when the president said this week, "...we must err on the side of life".... I can't help but wonder if he was thinking that as he became the most prolific lever-puller in the country, executing a record number of prisoners during his term as governor of Texas?

I recognize this won't be a popular position to espouse, but the government should not be involved in this family matter, and as a culture perhaps the time has come that we should ask ourselves how we reconcile the duplicity of these positions. I also wonder why as a culture we have come to fear the natural process of death so very much. Is this perhaps evidence that we lack the conviction of our "faith" that rewards await?

Yes, I have really been in a kind of duality there. I support the Brady bills and am sending them money for it. I do not support abortions. But, I cannot support making someone live in a vegetative state. It makes no sense. I cannot believe that anyone would want to live (?) that way. On top of that think of all the money wasted on it. I really don't think the government should get into this.
It just appalls me the way Republicans don't want gun support. What's wrong with background checks. That's pretty much what it is. As long as they don't have a criminal record, they will get their guns. And, in case they are planning to shoot a person, the waiting period should make them think about it more. I keep wondering how bad things are going to get before Jesus comes back? I really hate to think how bad it is going to get before that.
Sure am crying a lot today!

If we take Bush, government intervention in this case, but just look at Terri the patient/ person.

She will die of dehydration, metabolic acidosis, and electrolyte imbalance. Death is so irreversible, why let her die, on basis of quality of life?

This seems to be an issue of basic sustenance and health care. Right?

Where's the outrage that should be expended on the proposed budget where Bush has made drastic cuts in domestic programs such as food stamps, aid to dependent children and Medicaid? If you truly care about your fellow Americans, you'd be making sure that more children don't fall under the poverty line and get cut from valuable programs and you'd be working toward affordable healthcare.

We treat the children of the working poor worse than all other industrialized nations and yet we want to expend time and energy allowing the government to meddle in the Schiavo's tragic, private, personal family matter.

It's certainly a good diversion from Tom DeLay's ethics problems though.

Maybe I'm wrong in how I'm thinking but if she's only alive because of artificial means, what good is it doing? Somehow, I think if God wanted her alive he would have done something to keep her alive. I really don't know what is right. I can only go by the thoughts in my head.

SIGH.

As a nurse, I see people have to make this hard decision all the time. Courts should stay the hell out of it. Period. When government gets to the point where they think they can tell you when you live and die, against your wishes, that is total bullsh*t.

As for death by starvation/dehydration, there have been various formal medical studies done that overwhelmingly (but no, not to 100%) show that it is not a painful way to die. By the time the body breaks down enough to be in pain, other than just "Oh, I'm hungry" or "Oh, I'm thirsty", the brain processing center that can interpret the painful impulse is shut down by lack of glucose. I have seen it, in practice, and yes, we give the person pain medicine "just in case". But I have never seen physical evidence that it is a painful process, and I have been a nurse since 1996. Physical/motor reflexes may still respond, but the brain does NOT process the painful stimulus....therefore, actual "pain" is not felt.

Kasey

Seems to me that when it comes to anyone being able to buy all kinds of guns the republicans (and other politicos) are "no government interference in peoples lives"
Its only birth, death and sex they want to control.

This is such a sad and complicated situation, i wish the family had privacy to have their fight and make their decision.
Demonizing people you don't agree with is just too easy, shallow thinking IMHO.
My wonderful mom is 83 and stricken with Alzheimer's, she lives in an Assisted Living place and keeps trying to run away and she winds up in the hospital. Last week she ended up in a Psych. ward because she tried to clime out her window.
We had to ring a bell so a staff member could come to the door and escort us to her room. She prays constantly to be taken to her God. She was an ICU nurse for thirty years, served in India as an army nurse during WW2, what she is going through is her worse nightmare. I can't help but think on some level she knows exactly what condition she is in and it causes her great emotional pain. She deserves a dignified and peaceful end to her life. I know i will grief for her when God finally has the mercy to take her, but I will also be relieved and happy for her. Even with all that, i don't know if i would have the courage Terri's husband has to remove her feeding tube (or whatever) when and if that time comes. I wish peace and healing for everyone involved in this case.
Happy Easter, Happy Purim, Happy Spring everyone.
peace,
moonpie

So sad...

Both the media and the politicians are having a heyday with this situation, so it's been hard to sift the fact from the fiction, and the legal issues from the emotional issues, that is for sure.

The way I understand it, trying to filter out all the noise is this. Court involvement was appropriate. There was a central legal issue at hand - what were Terri's wishes? All of us have the right to choose no life support should we find ourselves in Terri's situation. But since Terri's wishes weren't in writing, it became a battle between the husband saying her wishes were one thing, and the parents saying her wishes were the opposite. They could not agree, so they went to court voluntarily to obtain a judicial decision about it. After hearing the evidence and testimony, the judges have repeatedly sided with whatever testimony and evidence the husband presented. From what I understand, this has been through several courts since the original judge rendered his/her decision through appeals and what not.

What is frightening is the way that the legislative and executive branches of government have attempted to over rule the judicial branch. There are very important reasons that the founding fathers included separation of powers in our constitution. I feel very sorry for what Terri's family are going through. But there are HUGE issues present in this situation that go way beyond Terri.

By the same token, there have been court decisions in recent years that IMO come dangerously close to the judicial branch trying to make new laws. And law making is clearly the job of the legistlative branch. The only role of the judicial branch on the law making side is supposed to be determining the constitutionality of those laws if those questions are raised.

Just more ramblings - and these are just my thoughts. I welcome other opinions. I just want to make sure that over one highly emotional case with lots of, IMO media manipulation and politiking going on, I don't end up losing MY right to choose.

DG

Simply put, the actions of Congress are something that a theocracy would do. There are many conservatives who have been very disturbed by this gross intrusion and have said so. I hope they have the courage to take their party back. I have no problem with traditional Republicanism, only differences of opinion. However, this is pure and utter extremism.

To me, I think it's time the Schindlers accept this. I know it sounds like I'm doing a 180, but I'm not. I understand the need to seek every help you can, but the government's involvement in this gave them false hope and has made it worse than it should have been. And made a private tragedy all too public.

My brother died in a hospice. Ok, that sounded ridiculous because, of course, that's why he was there. He was at Laguna Honda Hospice. One thing the people told my brother, sister and I after he passed away was that he didn't eat the last three days of his life. He was restless and would get up and down especially the last night he was alive. We all had planned to go to California to see him one last time, but we were too late. BTW, he wasn't hooked up to anything. His longtime high school friends went up the weekend before and took him to visit the redwoods because he loved all things nature. He just finally got tired, laid down and went to sleep forever.

What I don't understand is why a hospice would take a woman who wasn't dying. My brother couldn't go into the hospice from the hospital until he was considered terminal with a minimal amount of time left. They gave him 6 months. He died from colon cancer in 6 weeks. I think hospices are wonderful and the people who work in them are caring individuals. But a person with a brain injury isn't terminal. So I've had a difficult time with that one.

Other than that, I think the Schindlers need to spend this time with their daughter/sister instead of fighting Michael. The courts have spoken for years. I understand their pain, but it will haunt them forever if they don't spend these last moments, days with her. I just wish them all peace. But above all, I wish Terri peace and hope she truly isn't aware of what has been going on around her.

Grgranny said:

Maybe I'm wrong in how I'm thinking but if she's only alive because of artificial means, what good is it doing? Somehow, I think if God wanted her alive he would have done something to keep her alive. I really don't know what is right. I can only go by the thoughts in my head.

Click to expand...

While I think that Terri should be allowed to die, I am do not agree with your statement above. There aer people whose lives are maintained through medication, dyalisis, etc whom we would never think of just allowing to die. The key here is consiousness and awareness. To all evidence, in Terri's case, there is none.