Can Michelle Get Back On the Podium?

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 26, 2005

Hockeyfan - Your points are well taken but they need some sort of verification. However, your previous suggestion that a separate panel of judges on the PSC portion of the score is not only a good suggestion, it should be acted on before the Olys!

I cannot believe there is a human judge who is not taken by something that reaches his "WOW' glands. A female skater who comes on with a 3x3x2 is going to cause a judge or judges to subliminally consider this technical feat into the PCS scores even after awarding a GOE +3 to the combo. Likewise Bielman positions and any other WOW moves that are in the program. It will affect the factors in the PCS scores that have nothing to do with WOW.

A separate Panel can concentrate on Transitions, Performan/Execution, Choreography, Interpretations and all their sub-parts separate from the skater's WOW moves by putting those WOW moves in sync with the whole program.

Of course we will never get two sets of judges. How could one collude with all those judges. Possible but not easy and probably not worth the trouble.

Joe

R.D. · Apr 26, 2005

attyfan said:
...ased on your analysis, it looks to me that the judges did the robbing, not Kwan.

Yeah, I never understood that mentality. Technically it is possible for a skater to be "robbed" (by the judges), but a skater cannot "rob" somebody else (they don't judge themselves!) I'm not getting at anyone here but just making a general statement.

(personal opinion coming up)
And, since (figure) skating is objective (and is judged by judges), I cannot call it a sport.

slutskayafan21 · Apr 26, 2005

antmanb said:
How long has been that COPs been in place?! Correct me if i'm wrong but by the time the 2001/2002 season rolled around the ladies had a mandatory combination of 3/2 or 2/3 or 3/3, they were no longer allowed to do 2/2 as the combo in the short. If Irina doubled her combo in the short and did 2/2 it was a failed element that should have a received a 0.4 mandatory deduction. Equally if Michelle fell on her triple lutz and didn't attempt the second jump then it is a failed element at receives the same 0.4 mandatory deduction therefore the error is identical for the technical mark so niether mistake is bigger than the other - they're just the same.

Ant

You are right on the technical side, but the fall takes away from the harmonious composition and flow of the program and should lower your second mark, whereas a doubled combo does not. Plus Irina typicaly comes out ahead of even Kwan in the short between 2000-2002 since her technical elements are the best and where that night as well. So I still see no reason Kwan deserved to be ahead.

thisthingcalledlove · Apr 26, 2005

heyang said:
BTW, who was the last male OGM to attend and/or win World's in the same year? I don't remember if Kulik or Yagudin went to World's - I think Boitano did to got World's in 88. In pairs, I know G&G and B&S and S&P didn't go to World's in 94 & 2002 - did K&D go in 1998? How about Dance?

Kazakova and Dmitriev did go, since Artur wanted the one title that this partnership didn't have, and that was world gold. However, he came down with food poisoning in Minneapolis (he ate bad sushi, or something like that).

Pasha and Platov didn't go in 1998. Marina and Gwendal skipped out in 2002, as well.

Mathman · Apr 26, 2005

Red Dog said:
Yeah, I never understood that mentality. Technically it is possible for a skater to be "robbed" (by the judges), but a skater cannot "rob" somebody else (they don't judge themselves!) .

I should have repeated the disclaimer from Hockeyfan's original post. Hockeyfan makes it very clear the shorthand "X robbed Y" is being used only to avoid the awkward, "the judges robbed X, giving her rightfully earned placement to Y instead."

I think all fans understand this and do not blame the skaters.

If I were a judge, I would love the CoP. Under ordinal judging, it does seem like it often comes down to a coin flip. I liked skater's X's layback better, but I liked skater Y's spirals better. X slightly two-footed her triple flip, Y had an off-balance landing on her double Axel. So who was better?

Now, at least on the technical side, all you have to do is judge each element as it comes and let the computer figure it all out.

As to whether figure skating is a sport or not -- well, as always, it is what it is. Half sport, half performing art.

(Chess, on the other hand -- now that's a true sport. You either knock the other guy out or he knocks you out. Nothing wishy-washy about judging there!)

Mathman

R.D. · Apr 26, 2005

Mathman said:
I should have repeated the disclaimer from Hockeyfan's original post. Hockeyfan makes it very clear the shorthand "X robbed Y" is being used only to avoid the awkward, "the judges robbed X, giving her rightfully earned placement to Y instead."

I know, but many fans still use that same mentality. I don't know, maybe they do that for the same reason as mentioned above. This is much more common on the FSU board than it is here on Golden Skate, however.

(Chess, on the other hand -- now that's a true sport. You either knock the other guy out or he knocks you out. Nothing wishy-washy about judging there!)

Mathman

I think I'll stick with chess being a board game. :agree: :yes:

attyfan · Apr 27, 2005

Mathman said:
I should have repeated the disclaimer from Hockeyfan's original post. Hockeyfan makes it very clear the shorthand "X robbed Y" is being used only to avoid the awkward, "the judges robbed X, giving her rightfully earned placement to Y instead." Mathman

Yes, and a Seattle paper didn't want to be awkward, and refer to Hughes by name twice in the same headline, so they said "American defeates Slutskaya, Kwan". I'm sure I've been guilty of the same sin, but I think it is something that all skating fans should work on. We can just say "X was robbed; s/he should have beaten Y". As some posters on FSU put it -- the only time where skater X robbed skater Y was Tonya Harding.

Mathman · Apr 27, 2005

attyfan said:
We can just say "X was robbed; s/he should have beaten Y".

Even that is a little tricky. The last clause could mean, "X should have skated better and beaten Y," instead of "Y did skate better but the judges didn't see it that way."

On the question of whether skating should be classified as a "sport," this, too, I think is just semantics. The important question is whether figure skating events are legimate contests with consistent and impartial judging.

In the performing arts there are lots of judged contests. You might have a piano-playing contest, for instance, with the prize being a scholarship to Juliard or a recital with the Philharmonic. The assumption is usually that the judges are mature experts in the field, while the contestants are novices hoping to get a foot in the door for a hoped-for career.

This model is very problematical when the contestants are the finest performers in the world and the stakes involve possible million dollar endorsement contracts, national prestige for the sponsoring federations, etc. I do not envy the ISU their twin tasks of trying to insure fair judging, and of trying to cover it up as best they can when fair judging does not occur.

Mathman

attyfan · Apr 27, 2005

Mathman said:
... I do not envy the ISU their twin tasks of trying to insure fair judging, and of trying to cover it up as best they can when fair judging does not occur. ... Mathman

Do you think that the ISU might have an easier time insuring fair judging if they didn't try to cover it up when there is corruption? It seems to me that the ISU could send out a spokesperson after each competition, explaining the various marks, and, dealing with the press questioning -- especially with a view towards distinguishing between "reasonable minds can differ" as to who should have won, versus "this is so outlandish that the judges must have been blind, drunk,
corrupt, or any combination of the above".

Mathman · Apr 27, 2005

I certainly do! :clap:

To me, that suggestion is so astonishingly common-sensical that I can guarentee that neither Cinquanta nor anyone else in the ISU will ever think of doing it, LOL.

In the best of all possible worlds, yes, Mr. Cinquanta would make a public announcement after each contest and say "this is so outlandish that the judges must have been blind, drunk, corrupt, or some combination of the above." :laugh:

I think the president of Enron should do this, too. Not to mention all the politicians on capitol hill.

But it's just human nature to want not to get caught when you screw up. I am sure that Cinquanta is an honorable man whose first choice is for everyone to do right. But, like any CEO, I think his second choice is to sweep all the mischief under the rug. It's not really wrong unless you get caught.

MM

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 27, 2005

I don't respect Cinquanta at all. He could resolve the SLC scandal but he wont. He could have Named Judges at a competition but he won't. He could stop complaining about who must skate the GPs but he won't.

Cinquanta needs the job and that is where he is at. The skaters be damned.

Joe

Mathman · Apr 27, 2005

I don't put all the blame at Cinquanta's door. He serves at the pleasure of the member federations. If he started cleaning house, the powerful federations would just elect a new guy and it would be business as usual.

LegalGirl82 · Apr 27, 2005

Joesitz said:
After 11 years of Medals, Michelle was denied one in Moscow. Some skating fans are delighted with this happening; others are in tears; still others like me, and apparently Dick are annoyed with her for her choices after the 2002 Olys. (Dick gave a few jabs at Marshalls; I want to give a punch.)

What can be done, if it is not too late.

1. Will she really get the CoP message now?

2. Will there be any 3x3s in the competition and not just in practice?

3. Other than the trade mark change of edge spiral, will there be any other Moves in the Field?

4. Will there be any transitions leading into elements particuarly jumps?

5. Will there be any GP events this coming season? Are they necessary?

6. Will Kimmie beat her at the next Nationals.

7. How much ground does she need to gain to be competitive with the present top three Worlds?

8. Can Michelle win the Olympics without doing anything about the above and rely on her traditional presentation?

(One has to think that the judges are looking for big tricks. In my opinion, the PCS scores are an after thought.)

Joe

I'm weighing in rather late on this topic, since work has kept me very busy, with little time to post lately. I will have to go back and read all of the responses and discussion that have taken place in this thread. In the meantime, here are my responses to Joe's original questions:

1. If the message of CoP was that "a level three is a level three, no matter how you do it", I think Michelle got that message, LOL. However she felt about CoP before, I think she's indicated in her last few interviews that she's ready to embrace it and she's confident in her ability to compete under CoP.

2. If she's feeling good and her success rate is at the right percentage, I believe we will see triple-triples in competition.

3. She's done them before, and she can do them again. IMHO, Michelle was CoP friendly in this regard long before there was a CoP.

4. See Answer #3. That said, however, as has been pointed out by other posters, with the exception of Shizuka, I didn't see much in the way of transitions from any of the other ladies this season, and I certainly wouldn't name Michelle as the head of the telegraph squad. There are others more eminently qualified for that position.

5. I've said it before and I'll say it again. For all any of us know, it has been in her overall plan all along to do GP events this upcoming Olympic season. For selfish reasons, I hope so, but we shall see. As far as necessity, there are pros and cons on both sides, and I won't rehash that here.

6. I will never tempt the skategods! Therefore, I will only say that ice is slippery, and anything can happen at a given competition, on a given night.

7. Not much.

8. Probably not. It is my hope that everything comes together, both technically and artistically, and she gives a performance for the ages that leaves no doubt in anyone's mind who the winner is.

As to Joe's title question (Can Michelle Get Back On the Podium?), in the language of a Stooge, Soitenly!

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 28, 2005

Mathman said:
I don't put all the blame at Cinquanta's door. He serves at the pleasure of the member federations. If he started cleaning house, the powerful federations would just elect a new guy and it would be business as usual.

I wouldn't exactly say 'serves at the pleasure of member federations'. I would say he obeys the demands of the member federations. I, for one, am not impressed.

Joe

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 28, 2005

LegalGirl82 said:
I'm weighing in rather late on this topic, since work has kept me very busy, with little time to post lately. As to Joe's title question (Can Michelle Get Back On the Podium?), in the language of a Stooge, Soitenly!

You've actually brought back the topic.

Joe

Can Michelle Get Back On the Podium?

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