Now that you've seen it

HockeyFan - While we know the names of the judges who are assigned to a competition, we do not know which judges were eliminated from the actual scoring and we really have to dig to find out from scores how those remaining after the hi and lo were dropped exactly how the results came about. I know this system has been an aid in preventing some biases and collusions but not entirely.

But all this takes place without the spectators knowing at the finish of the competition. It is only known how the results were arrived at much later. If you are interested in knowing how the Ladies scores fared, you will wait till the next day for that information. At 11pm with medal ceremonies going on, one is not rushing for that information.

Whether it is 6.0 system or CoP system, the judges do come up with an ordinal finish. Why not flash those ordinals to the public with the names of the judges who actually participated in the competition. Yes, it might cause groans from the fans but so what? Same thing happens in other sports.

As a firm believer that the CoP is not geared to instant judging, I am with you on having separate judges for the Tech and PCS. I just can't believe one judge can fathom all that requisite information in coming up with a genuine score.

Joe

oe, Hockeyfan, Doggygirl, and Mathman,
Wow! Thanks for all the great responses to my Code of Nuthin'. Seriously, I wish I'd been around to respond to each of them in a timely fashion. But I'm sure none of you will mind if I give a short response to each post.

Something short from Rgirl? Well, short according to Rgirl standards.

THE CROWD GOES WILD!!!

Joe, Post #31: "I agree fs on TV is almost exclusively eligible competitions but even at that it is not as big as it once was. We lost a lot of viewers; not hard core fs fans, but the kinds of viewers that bring up the ratings." Thanks for the welcome back. The point I was trying to make about having both competitive skating and high quality pro skating is that, IMO, the combination increases viewership. I agree that pro competitions don't matter nearly as much as the skating itself, if at all, although I do remember the competition at some of the old World Pro Championships and a few of the group competitions by country in the pro "golden era" as raising the calibre of skating and adding excitement for both skaters and viewers. But generally, I agree, it's the skating people turn in to watch. Quality pro skating also attracted exactly the kinds of viewers that bring up the ratings. Not the hard core FS fans, but the can't tell a double from a triple, just want to see something interesting and new from their favorite pros, as well as different from the eligible events. Right now, figure skating's Pro levels are, sadly, low, old, or repetitive. Not good enough to attract the casual viewer. Hope things improve in the future. JMO.

HockeyFan, Post #32: OMG! You can HEAR me on your computer! Well, now you know I swear like a sailor.
Part I: HF, I swear, you blow me away. ITA with your analysis of reputation and herd mentality being interrelated. I can't believe I forgot about mob thinking, but it's in every system. Nobody wants to be the nail that sticks up. Think how much crap the judge from I believe Finland got when, at the '02 Olympics she was putting skaters in 10th place that the other judges were putting in 3rd or 4th. But maybe she was the only one judging correctly.

Part II: Your analysis and explanation of how the COP is supposed to be applied to each element is simply brilliant. NOW I understand! All I can say is I would love to see you take your posts from this thread and put them into a paper for the GS website. You do what the best instructors do, combine abstraction and example to make a dense issue clear. If doing a paper isn't possible, perhaps you could collect your posts on the COP and put them into "Recommended by GS" thread. That is, a thread Paula starts and that the moderators sign off on as recommended reading for learning about the COP. A couple of us tried when the COP first came out, but I know I did a damn bad job of it. Your writing style is so clear and concise that I think people would learn about the COP whether they wanted to or not. If you want to keep the format of responding to my assertions, fine by me. I'm not just blowing smoke. Really, I'm serious. Whatever you do, I sure learn a lot from your posts, especially the COP ones, but not just those. Aww, I can see you're blushing.

Mathman, Post #33: Hmm, rock, smile, heart, cool. Is that like rock, paper, scissors? :scratch: Anyway, about your point that every sport is in the same boat, i.e., being beaten down by the 800-lb. gorilla of football, I disagree. I do agree that football rules the US sports scene, just as international football (soccer) rules the world. What is it about men and balls? Okay, sorry. You mentioned advertising and the lack of sports celebs on TV commercials. Broadcast advertising itself is going through an enormous change because of TIVO. In the last two years, the number of homes with TIVO or its equivalent has tripled, which means people zap the commercials. The Internet means that people deal less with print media, another kick in the pants for traditional advertising. So I don't think the visibility of sports celebs in ads these days has any bearing on the popularity they bring to the sport. BTW, I think Smart Ones didn't drop Kristi, just as Chevy didn't drop Michelle. They probably each had a limited contract. What people want in a sports star is somebody who captures their attention in and out of the sport. Michael Jordan is probably the one who did it based most on his athletic ability, but his off-court behavior and demeanor transformed him into a role model as well.

Figure skating hasn't had "talk around the water cooler" star since Oksana Baiul. Granted, a lot of people probably tuned in to see her skate during her downward spiral just to see if she was SUI (skating under the influence), but even before that she had the whole rags-to-riches, orphan thing going. True, a star isn't going to bring millions to figure skating, but at least I think another Katerina Witt would bring in several hundred thousand.

The thing is, though, sports celebs have become much more savvy about keeping their personal life personal. They've learned you don't compete well when the paparazzi are hounding you about your sex life. That void has been filled by the celebutantes, i.e., Paris Hilton, Nicole Richie, etc., who are more than happy to not only talk about their sex life, but tape it and sell it on eBay. So maybe it's better for the sport that FS doesn't have a star, which by design has to be a ladies singles skater, at least in the US. Fewer viewers, but less trash as well. Anyway, if I'm wrong I'll just make up some statistics to support my POV, lol.

Speaking of statistics, Bofessah Mathman, I say the flaw in your list of how many viewings threads about certain skaters has is that it changes with the time of year and/or what the skaters are doing. Prior to, during, and right after Nationals, viewings of threads about Michelle probably would have been #1 or 2, as I expect they will be around Worlds. Or if a skater, any skater, announces a coaching change, turning pro, marrying Mathman, the same principle applies. Tch, tch, tch. See? That's what you get when you study statistics from a book that's all numbers and no text.

Doggygirl, Post #34: Just saying and that I've been getting the biggest kick reading your posts on Le Café. :agree:
Post #37: I think your idea about having separate judging panels for technical and component scoring is brilliant. No matter how skilled judges get with the COP, it's too much too assess accurately that quickly, especially with the top skaters. So how do we get you and HockeyFan as co-chairs of the International Figure Skating Association?

Rgirl

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If I can't be a good example, then I'll just have to be a horrible warning." - Catherine Aird (paraphrased)

I'm sure "oe" will be responding soon, but anyway...

(1) About football being the 800 pound gorilla, what I was trying to say is not that it dominates other sports but rather, that even this most popular of sports does not have any star who gets a lot of commercial endorsements or any (favorable) publicity off the field. (Quick, name a football player. OK, Tiki Barber.) Yet this does not hurt the popularity of the sport.

(2) About statistics and who gets the most GS ink, I hope you're right that after Worlds it will be Michelle, Michelle, Michelle! To the victor, and all that.

Mathman (=scissors).

Yeah, Mathman, but football doesn't need a star. When you're the 800-lb gorilla, you don't need no stinking stars, you just plunk your butt down and people pay attention. Whereas other sports--especially those for more intelligent people, such as figure skating--need stars so the fans can intelligently discuss them, just like some people are doing on a certain thread about a certain skater's book on The Edge.

BTW, oe, well done with Post #120 on the above mentioned thread. A certain someone obviously didn't listen, but it's the efforts by the Mods that we appreciate.

You, too, Mathman. I just don't want any gorillas sitting on me. Unless of course I'm doing this :agree: in the anatomically correct position.

Rgirl

Sorry I missed this RGirl!

Rgirl said:

Doggygirl, Post #34: Just saying and that I've been getting the biggest kick reading your posts on Le Café. :agree:
Post #37: I think your idea about having separate judging panels for technical and component scoring is brilliant. No matter how skilled judges get with the COP, it's too much too assess accurately that quickly, especially with the top skaters. So how do we get you and HockeyFan as co-chairs of the International Figure Skating Association?

Rgirl

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While I definitely think splitting the judging panel into some sort of element judges and PCS judges makes a TON of sense, I can't claim that as an original idea. But I'm always willing to promote what I think is a good idea! I will sign up to be Hockeyfan's campain manager to replace Speedy at the ISU.

DG