A fair way to pick GPF finalists? | Page 31 | Golden Skate

A fair way to pick GPF finalists?

I don't get what they are discussing so long. They should have already did final results from sp results two days ago.

Well, it doesn't appear the solution to this unfortunate scenario is quick and easy to implement (though I doubt most people would have assumed it would be.)

The ISU probably wouldn't make a decision on this in a vacuum, and would at least hear/consider ideas from those who are directly impacted from the cancellation of TEB, including federations/skaters. Sounds reasonable to me.

Any proposals would need to be discussed with stakeholders, and checked for feasibility with federations/skaters/officials/event organisers, etc. All these folks are scattered around the globe in different time zones, so hardly a surprise this is taking more than a day or two, IMO.

Whether there's a decision today or tomorrow, I'm sure the ISU is actively working toward adopting a solution with the federations, who ought to have the best interests of their skaters in mind here. Together, I imagine they will come to an agreement they can all live with.
 
Well, it doesn't appear the solution to this unfortunate scenario is quick and easy to implement (though I doubt most people would have assumed it would be.)
Actually, given how many times we've discussed the limitations of reality (mainly regarding time and money) I think quite the opposite might be the case.
:slink:
 
It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the ISU presented their proposal and were told in no uncertain terms "I don't think so!" By one, or more of the coaches or Federations who are directly affected by the outcome. I'm thinking late today or even tomorrow.
 
It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the ISU presented their proposal and were told in no uncertain terms "I don't think so!" By one, or more of the coaches or Federations who are directly affected by the outcome. I'm thinking late today or even tomorrow.

I don't think that the ISU cares what skaters and coaches think. No skater or coach is a member of the ISU, nor has much influence in its decisions.

National Federations, on the other hand -- they are the ISU and comprise its governing body. The other thing, of course, is money. I very much doubt that any solution is being considered that involves more skating. To me, it seems most likely that they are wrangling over weird formulas between 0 credit (cancel the event) for the TEB short program to 100% credit (let the SP stand for the whole competition), and whether or not to shoehorn in extra entries at the GP Final.

Isn't Wednesday just about over in [edit] Europe? ;)
 
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That's very interesting Mathman. I would imagine the GPF will be a lot more profitable if Patrick and Max are in the final as they a hugely popular, not just in their home countries but, worldwide. I don't remember the full lineup of Ladies but, IMO, Gracie and Yulia are enough to make me think that a BIG announcement must be coming.
 
That's very interesting Mathman. I would imagine the GPF will be a lot more profitable if Patrick and Max are in the final as they a hugely popular, not just in their home countries but, worldwide. I don't remember the full lineup of Ladies but, IMO, Gracie and Yulia are enough to make me think that a BIG announcement must be coming.

Agreed. A solution involving more skating would definitely be a 'consideration', at least.

I can't think of any reason Barcelona wouldn't welcome additional big names in skating there.
 
Agreed. A solution involving more skating would definitely be a 'consideration', at least.

I can't think of any reason Barcelona wouldn't welcome additional big names in skating there.

100% Correct!!! I can't imagine fans from Canada or the US traveling that far without 2 of the biggest names from their respective countries being at the event. Being from the US, I would love to attend any event that had Max and Gracie but, I wouldn't have to leave the Country to see them. However, when you add Patrick and Yulia to the lineup, I'd be there. Fortunately, Worlds are in Boston so, I imagine most US fans weren't planning a trip to Spain.

I would guess this situation has much more to do with TV Ratings. I can Imagine the Networks and their advertisers, especially in the US and Canada, are waiting to find if two of the biggest names in skating will be at the event.
 
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I'd really be ok with whatever the ISU decides at this point. There are solutions that I think are more fair than others, but none are universally fair to everyone. The things that I would find unfair, such as expecting the skaters to show up somewhere in the world to skate one LP, will not happen due to cost.
 
Why are we even mentioning Yulia in all this? She has no chance at the GPF as it stands. Gracie on the other hand has the results to be in Barcelona.
 
Why are we even mentioning Yulia in all this? She has no chance at the GPF as it stands. Gracie on the other hand has the results to be in Barcelona.

There is no decision that the ISU would make that would leave Gracie out of the GPF. She has the highest SP and LP scores so far on the GP.
 
To be fair to the ISU:
No doubt it already has lost significant $$$ because of the cancellation of TEB. For example:

It probably has to return some of the money that it received for broadcast/streaming rights.

Ticketholders are getting refunds.

Any extra costs involved in handling the response to the cancellation of TEB will be a double-whammy.

Money is king for anyone and everyone on the planet. The ISU cannot be blamed for that reality.


I do NOT think there has been much $$$ lost due to the cancellation...

REVENUES:

Yes, there will be some loss due to ticket refunds; however I believe revenues from ticket sales at GP events usually comprise less than 33% of total revenues!? In the current TEB case, half the competition was cancelled (plus the popular exhibition) so refunds likely will amount to a maximum of ~⅔ (or ~66%) of total ticket revenues; which, assuming my 33% figure is correct, equates to ~22% of event revenues (= ⅔ x 33%).

Where does the other 67% of event revenues come from? My understanding is that it comes from a combination of local event AND other ISU funding sources, including:
  • National or Regional Government funding/support (local)
  • Host City funding/support (local)
  • Association funding/support (e.g. USFSA contributing towards Skate America budget) (local)
  • Advertising/sponsorship fees (local and ISU)
  • Broadcasting rights (mostly ISU, some local)
  • Revenue from the "big" events (like the World Championships, or perhaps the GPF). In other words, "ISU General Funds" (ISU)

If someone knows otherwise about the typical revenue breakdown for GP event competitions, please post a reply.



EXPENSES:

The majority of costs will have been budgeted for; so NO "extra" costs involved due to the cancellation. For example:
  • facility (ice) rental
  • hotels, meals & flights for officials
  • promotion/posters/programs
  • technical crews (ice preparation, installation of computer systems, video/camera set-up)

I̶ ̶b̶e̶l̶i̶e̶v̶e̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶u̶r̶r̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶I̶S̶U̶ ̶m̶e̶e̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶L̶a̶u̶s̶a̶n̶n̶e̶ ̶(̶w̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶d̶e̶b̶a̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶h̶o̶w̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶a̶w̶a̶r̶d̶ ̶p̶o̶i̶n̶t̶s̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶G̶P̶F̶)̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶ ̶a̶l̶r̶e̶a̶d̶y̶ ̶s̶c̶h̶e̶d̶u̶l̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶o̶c̶c̶u̶r̶;̶ ̶s̶o̶ ̶n̶o̶ ̶a̶d̶d̶i̶t̶i̶o̶n̶a̶l̶ ̶c̶o̶s̶t̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶.̶

The major broadcast rights (held by the big broadcasters worldwide) are normally sold on a 'per-season' or even 'multi-year' basis (not usually event-to-event). When they purchase those rights, there will be a Force Majeure clause in the contract that essentially frees both parties from liability or obligation as a result of an extraordinary event or circumstance beyond the control of the parties. So, the ISU will NOT have to reimburse broadcasters.

Similarly, the home broadcaster (who sets up the cameras and employs the cameramen at the event) will have signed a contract containing a Force Majeure clause.

The cancellation of TEB, due to terrorist activity, would almost certainly qualify under a Force Majeure clause.

FYI - the sort of things that would NOT qualify under a Force Majeure clause (source: Wikipedia):

Force majeure is generally intended to include occurrences beyond the reasonable control of a party, and therefore would not cover:
  • Any result of the negligence or malfeasance of a party, which has a materially adverse effect on the ability of such party to perform its obligations;
  • Any result of the usual and natural consequences of external forces (for example, predicted rain stops an outdoor event); and
  • Any circumstances that are specifically contemplated (included) in the contract.



BALANCE SHEET:

So, as best as I can figure it...

REVENUES ≧ 78% of event budget
EXPENSES = same as event budget

Of course, everything is relative ... however, to this point, I do NOT think the ISU has lost significant $$$ because of the cancellation of TEB. Yes, they will be short some revenue; but, it is a "drop in the bucket" when looking at the ISU's overall yearly budget!
 
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Why are we even mentioning Yulia in all this? She has no chance at the GPF as it stands. Gracie on the other hand has the results to be in Barcelona.

I mention Yulia because she's pretty and my students love her. When they actually watch skating ( Nats, Worlds, and Oly ) They always call me with their favorites and Yulia was definitely one of them. :sad21:
 
I do not think they are probably discussing what to do when and if this happens again in the future except maybe during breaks. There is obviously going to have to be a rule made about that, but I do not think they have the power or authority to make the rule now at this meeting.


I thought yesterday probably some kind of tentative agreement had been reached and they were arguing about financing. It's now 'clear' that there is some kind of ideological divide and some people are not budging as said above. They may even be essentially evenly divided, which is a worst case nightmare scenario, since if they are still basically evenly divided at this time, it's possible this actually could go on for quite a few more days.

As to why it's a big deal that they are taking so long, it is and it isn't. It's sort of unfortunate for the skaters who are awaiting an answer. The longer it goes on, too, though, the shorter the notice the 'plan' has to be implemented on, which is good for no one (unless they do end up going with either just the SP counts straight up, or the event doesn't count at all straight up, either of which I think is unlikely after so many hours of debate).
 
Why are we even mentioning Yulia in all this? She has no chance at the GPF as it stands. Gracie on the other hand has the results to be in Barcelona.

Because they are talking about expanding the number who qualify.... and six and silver could end up in 8th place. A 2/6 finish is the same as a 3/5 or 4/4 point wise but wins the tie breaker.
it would not really take that many extra slots for Yulia to end up there. Liza is looking at a possible 2/5 finish and they are trying to get her in.... Yulia is one spot off from it.

Yulia is an issue because some solutions could wind up with Yulia going.
 
I don't think that the ISU cares what skaters and coaches think. No skater or coach is a member of the ISU, nor has much influence in its decisions.

National Federations, on the other hand -- they are the ISU and comprise its governing body. The other thing, of course, is money. I very much doubt that any solution is being considered that involves more skating. To me, it seems most likely that they are wrangling over weird formulas between 0 credit (cancel the event) for the TEB short program to 100% credit (let the SP stand for the whole competition), and whether or not to shoehorn in extra entries at the GP Final.

Isn't Wednesday just about over in [edit] Europe? ;)

It's almost 9 pm here. I'd be very surprised to hear a decision today at this point, though I wouldn't be out of this world shocked. I think at this point realistically the soonest we can probably expect to hear is tomorrow late morning.
 
I am convinced that the fairest and simplest solution to the problem is to allow the SP/SD results of TEB to stand. One can see from this thread the many complications involved in most of the proffered solutions. Once powerful federations attempt to have exceptions for their skaters, politics win and skaters lose. SP/SD results are already decided according to association protocol. Any further solution short of rescheduling FS/FD for TEB participants would be suspect. Too bad for a super skater that flubbed the SP! Accept the results as skated. Don't create a greater "unfairness" in attempting solutions.
 
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Do you think the delay in making a statement will affect the way things go at the other events or, do you think it doesn't matter. As a coach, I always knew what was going around the circuit especially when the big guns were competing.
 
Do you think the delay in making a statement will affect the way things go at the other events or, do you think it doesn't matter. As a coach, I always knew what was going around the circuit especially when the big guns were competing.

I don't really think it will matter? The skaters presumably will still be trying to skate their best in order to have maximum chances of making the final no matter what decision is made.
 
As to why it's a big deal that they are taking so long, it is and it isn't. It's sort of unfortunate for the skaters who are awaiting an answer. The longer it goes on, too, though, the shorter the notice the 'plan' has to be implemented on, which is good for no one…

Any minute now I expect an announcement to the effect, "We plan to make an announcement by Thursday." ;)

Do we know exactly who it is that are conducting these ruminations? The ISU Constitution gives the President and his Council virtually unlimited authority between Congresses. The Council does not have to solicit anyone's approval.

I still think the principle of scoring the Bompard event by the results at hand is cleanest and least objectionable. I hope they are not thinking along the lines, "How can we manipulate the rules to make sure that the most popular skaters will be there and we can make more money."
 
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