2016 Trophée de France Mens FS

karne said:

Nathan Chen USA
Polovitsian Dances
in a rather fancy red coat with lots of gold detail.

my stream has gotten rather jerky.
4Lz-3T
4F<
4S< fall (but hte fall was on the beat of the music?)
4T< fall
ChSq
4S< hand down + REP
2A ngl that bugs me. a lot.
I did not see all of that combo since my otherwise flawless feed is being dicky, but it was sloppy and messy -3T-2Lo
3Lz
StSq
FCCoSp
CCoSp

well. the ambition was there but the execution was sloppy. and the double standard is alive and well, i see.

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Yo...everyone getting annoyed that Nathan is doubling his axel. News flash, it's intentional....he broke his hip 8 months ago, like broke his HIP! It's amazing he his even still skating, not to mention adding 2 new quads on top of that. The axel is still a danger to his hip because of the forward entry take off. The swing through of the free leg going up and over has to snap thru hard and very quickly to get all of his weight transferred, balanced, and rotating on his landing side. The momentum and motion for a quick twitch required in an axel to turn a rotated triple is high risk for a hip injury, especially on a hip that has been broken and is still undergoing physical therapy to strengthen. So far this season he is currently rotating the jumps the doctor has cleared him to do as he is still in recovery. So let's all marvel at how super human his come back to competitive ice has been and celebrate the technical accomplishments he's made in spite of what for many has been a career ending injury, i.e. Tara Lipinski...

shaneb said:

Yo...everyone getting annoyed that Nathan is doubling his axel. News flash, it's intentional....he broke his hip 8 months ago, like broke his HIP! It's amazing he his even still skating, not to mention adding 2 new quads on top of that. The axel is still a danger to his hip because of the forward entry take off.

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Sorry, but I'm not buying it. If the hip is sooooooooo bad that he can't do a 3A, then maybe they should consider reducing his quad content too. It's hard to feel all "oh he's too hurt to do the 3A" when he's trying five sloppy quads and taking huge falls onto it AND doing ZERO choreography.

Chen, his team and his crowners can't have it both ways. He's either fit to compete and try this content or he's not. They can't ask for sympathy on one hand with the "oh he's too hurt to do 3A" and then "oh he's trying more quads than anyone else" on the other hand.

shaneb said:

Yo...everyone getting annoyed that Nathan is doubling his axel. News flash, it's intentional....he broke his hip 8 months ago, like broke his HIP! It's amazing he his even still skating, not to mention adding 2 new quads on top of that. The axel is still a danger to his hip because of the forward entry take off. The swing through of the free leg going up and over has to snap thru hard and very quickly to get all of his weight transferred, balanced, and rotating on his landing side. The momentum and motion for a quick twitch required in an axel to turn a rotated triple is high risk for a hip injury, especially on a hip that has been broken and is still undergoing physical therapy to strengthen. So far this season he is currently rotating the jumps the doctor has cleared him to do as he is still in recovery. So let's all marvel at how super human his come back to competitive ice has been and celebrate the technical accomplishments he's made in spite of what for many has been a career ending injury, i.e. Tara Lipinski...

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Some of the same people complaining about Nathan doing a 2A in his programs are also complaining about his adding new quads like the 4Lz and 4Fl (which he added because toe jumps are not so tough on his hip), and citing their concern about his injury. Hmmm. I'm glad to see your explanation of why the 3 axel is harder on his hip. Being a recently converted Nathan Chen fan, I'm plenty concerned, of course, and I do hope he's following doctor's orders.

As for "his team" being at fault, he's apparently changing his program on the fly mid-program; what's his coach supposed to do? And as someone mentioned earlier, he seems to be a headstrong kid. I mean, he looks gentle and compliant and respectful and I imagine he's all those things, but some of the most unlikely people can be stubborn.

karne said:

Sorry, but I'm not buying it. If the hip is sooooooooo bad that he can't do a 3A, then maybe they should consider reducing his quad content too. It's hard to feel all "oh he's too hurt to do the 3A" when he's trying five sloppy quads and taking huge falls onto it AND doing ZERO choreography.

Chen, his team and his crowners can't have it both ways. He's either fit to compete and try this content or he's not. They can't ask for sympathy on one hand with the "oh he's too hurt to do 3A" and then "oh he's trying more quads than anyone else" on the other hand.

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Oh get over yourself. For years harper on about Jason don't need a quad to win over anyone when it has been proven he does need a quad to be competitive and his inflated PCS won't save him. And for goodness sake the kid is/was injured. he can do what ever he want. He doesn't need 4 quads to beat Jason, he may even get away with just 1 as minimizing quads allows him the scope to improve his choreography and show off his skating skills like Jason has done.

Let them compete in whatever the way they want.. I am really looking forward to US nationals.. it will be a tough one for sure!

Exactly. At the end of the day, he wouldn't be as good as he is if he didn't have a competitors mentally...so yes, he pushes himself according to his own goals. Plus, he is 17... teenagers push the limits in most facets of life, why would it be different in sport, lol.

karne said:

Sorry, but I'm not buying it. If the hip is sooooooooo bad that he can't do a 3A, then maybe they should consider reducing his quad content too. It's hard to feel all "oh he's too hurt to do the 3A" when he's trying five sloppy quads and taking huge falls onto it AND doing ZERO choreography.

Chen, his team and his crowners can't have it both ways. He's either fit to compete and try this content or he's not. They can't ask for sympathy on one hand with the "oh he's too hurt to do 3A" and then "oh he's trying more quads than anyone else" on the other hand.

Click to expand...

Your ignorance on facts of the situation is apparent...

da96103 said:

There's no big sponsor for Trophee this year. So reduced budget.

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Uhm, are you implying that reduced budget means that it's okay to risk injury to elite skaters and lower the quality of the event by not paying to keep the chillers on the pad all the way through to the end???? [On dit?!!....Avez-vous entendu du chantage? -- People are saying, you've heard rumours...]

That would be a pretty serious charge. Even if another user needed the venue without ice the next day, it would be beyond the pale to agree to an earlier shut off of the cooling system...

Actually, it did occur to me that the cooling system had failed or was turned off. There was water splashing close to the boards in the other corner when Evegenia jumped. And the sheen towards centre ice during the medal ceremony suggests a full scale thaw was underway. But I thought that we should leave it to the skaters, coaches and federations to comment or file protests if they feel it necessary.

da96103 said:

Is Adam the oldest skater to jump his first clean quad?

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Sergei Voronov's quads came in quite late as I recall...

He's 29 now, and really took off again in this quadrennnial, so he may have been a bit younger than Adam.

OS said:

Oh get over yourself. For years harper on about Jason don't need a quad to win over anyone when it has been proven he does need a quad to be competitive and his inflated PCS won't save him. And for goodness sake the kid is/was injured. he can do what ever he want. He doesn't need 4 quads to beat Jason, he may even get away with just 1 as minimizing quads allows him the scope to improve his choreography and show off his skating skills like Jason has done.

Let them compete in whatever the way they want.. I am really looking forward to US nationals.. it will be a tough one for sure!

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Wait. You of all people are criticizing another poster for lack of taste? Seriously? You, who are so obsessed with disparaging Jason Brown (see above) that a couple of months ago you dragged him into a thread where people were discussing Evgenia's FS and sharing their 9/11 experiences, just so you could get in another dig at him by comparing his alleged lack of taste to Averbukh's?

Gimme a break.

StitchMonkey said:

... I think Jason will have more reputation there than Nathan or Kolyada. He was a hit on "The Ice" this year remember.

Also Jason has outscored Nathan in non US comps as well.... just saying.

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I think Jason has so many fans in Japan, he will feel like he is on home "turf". I am hoping that he really draws strength from the crowd!

karne said:

five sloppy quads and taking huge falls onto it AND doing ZERO choreography.

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I agree with many of your thoughts. But to say "all 5 quads were sloppy" is just factually inaccurate.

I swear I read somewhere the reason Nathan pushed for 4lz and 4f was due to his condition in which he could not do the 3a and 4s reglarly after surgery. To maintain high bv,without these key jumps, he found his way of getting through by putting less stress on the hip, more on the toepick and legs, instead.

Was it from an interview with Rafael during summer? (Or, did I get confused with someone's speculation? I don't know... )

Or, does it really matter? With his quad lutz, quad flip, and dance/skating skills from the tef gala, he would not be afraid of anything.

Thank you Adam....(and Jason) for replacing that missing element for me when Lambiel and Jeff Buttle left. I'm just saying.

TGee said:

Sergei Voronov's quads came in quite late as I recall...

He's 29 now, and really took off again in this quadrennnial, so he may have been a bit younger than Adam.

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No, Sergei was doing quads in competition in 2008, and possibly earlier. I don't follow Alexei Bychenko too closely, but he might be a better example, not sure.

Did a rough search, Alexei Bychenko landed what I think was his first 4T in the FS of 2013 Golden Spin of Zagreb. He would been 25 years old at the time -- so younger than Adam. But his stride came later.

Mrs. P said:

Did a rough search, Alexei Bychenko landed what I think was his first 4T in the FS of 2013 Golden Spin of Zagreb. He would been 25 years old at the time -- so younger than Adam. But his stride came later.

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I think Adam landed his year back at NHK . No?

Mrs. P said:

Did a rough search, Alexei Bychenko landed what I think was his first 4T in the FS of 2013 Golden Spin of Zagreb. He would been 25 years old at the time -- so younger than Adam. But his stride came later.

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Adam was credited with landed / rotated 4Ts in SP and FS at NHK 2013 (but had hand down on one and step out on other, so got -GOE on both):

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpjpn2013/

Tavi... said:

Adam was credited with landed / rotated 4Ts in SP and FS at NHK 2013 (but had hand down on one and step out on other, so got -GOE on both):

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpjpn2013/

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Yep I remember that. What I should have added that the quad I had for Alexei was clean and with plus GOE.

Maybe it's too late to talk about TDF, but here are my thoughts and breakdown of scores of Men FS. Sorry if there is any mistake!
Please note, this is just my personal opinion and I'm not bashing any skaters.

BV+GOE=TES TOP 5
[TABLE="class: grid, width: 700"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]BV (Jump/Spin/Step)[/TD]
[TD]GOE (Jump/Spin/Step)[/TD]
[TD]Total[/TD]
[TD]Ded.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1. FERNANDEZ[/TD]
[TD]87.39 (72.49/9.60/5.30)[/TD]
[TD]10.14 (4.99/2.01/3.14)[/TD]
[TD]97.53[/TD]
[TD]-1.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2. RIPPON[/TD]
[TD]81.17 (65.67/10.20/5.30)[/TD]
[TD]13.47 (7.86/3.00/2.61)[/TD]
[TD]94.64[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3. CHEN[/TD]
[TD]96.70 (81.70/9.70/5.30)[/TD]
[TD]-2.11 (-5.34/1.57/1.66)[/TD]
[TD]94.59[/TD]
[TD]-2.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4. TEN[/TD]
[TD]79.08 (63.88/9.30/5.90)[/TD]
[TD]14.31 (8.25/2.36/3.70)[/TD]
[TD]93.39[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5. MURA[/TD]
[TD]82.28 (67.58/8.80/5.90)[/TD]
[TD]7.56 (3.93/1.53/2.10)[/TD]
[TD]89.84[/TD]
[TD]-1.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

TEN had lower BV but got most GOE and RIPPON next. CHEN had highest BV but negative GOE.

JUMP TOP 5 - Total(BV/GOE)
[TABLE="class: grid, width: 700"]
[TR]
[TD]1.FERNANDEZ 77.48(72.49/4.99)[/TD]
[TD]2.CHEN 76.36(81.70/-5.34)[/TD]
[TD]3.RIPPON 73.53(65.67/7.86)[/TD]
[TD]4.TEN 72.13(63.88/8.25)[/TD]
[TD]5.MURA 71.51(67.58/3.93)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

FERNANDEZ(-3), MURA(-2.1) and CHEN(-8) had falls. IMO it was generous for RIPPON/TEN. Their jumps were good but not fantastic. Adam had long prep for few jumps, Denis had few shaky landings. MURA had a fall/e, so not so much this time, but I've always been frustrated with his low-balled GOE.

IMO current judging "trends" do NOT appreciate enough of big jumps w/ proper techniques & good speed in/out. Yes, adding entries/exit/tano are the GOE checkboxes, but there are others like "delay (same box as tano)","height/distance (judges seem to give this out like candy but should be more special IMO)","extension on landing (same box as exit)","flow","effortless" and "matching to music"! Quite honestly, if a jump itself is not that clean, then those "extra" sould NOT be counted as it defeats the true meaning of "adding difficulties". Ah... not enough space to talk about this frustration about jump GOE!!

SPIN TOP 5 - Total(BV/GOE)
[TABLE="class: grid, width: 700"]
[TR]
[TD]1.RIPPON 13.20(10.20/3.00)[/TD]
[TD]2.HENDRICKX 11.84(9.70/2.14)[/TD]
[TD]3.TEN 11.66(9.30/2.36)[/TD]
[TD]4.FERNANDEZ 11.61(9.60/2.01)[/TD]
[TD]5.CHEN 11.27(9.70/1.57)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

RIPPON's spins were gorgeous!! His positions matched the bird theme so well. IMO FERNANDEZ's spins were not that great.

StSq+ChSq TOP 5 - Total (BV/GOE)
[TABLE="class: grid, width: 700"]
[TR]
[TD]1.TEN 9.60(5.90/3.70)[/TD]
[TD]2.FERNANDEZ 8.44(5.30/3.14)[/TD]
[TD]3.GE
8.33(5.30/3.03)[/TD]
[TD]4.MURA 8.00(5.90/2.10)[/TD]
[TD]5.RIPPON 7.91(5.30/2.61)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

TEN sure does not waste any note or nuance of music! GE had a PERFECT GOE for his beautiful ChSq!! I loved MURA's soft upper body w/ deep edge! Denis and Mura are the only LVL4. Not sure about Javi's GOE. Charming as always, but slow and labored IMO.

---

SS TOP 5
[TABLE="class: grid, width: 700"]
[TR]
[TD]1.FERNANDEZ 9.18[/TD]
[TD]2.TEN 8.79[/TD]
[TD]3.RIPPON 8.68[/TD]
[TD]4.MURA 8.46[/TD]
[TD]5.CHEN 8.11[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I like FERNANDEZ's skating, but it's a bit overrated IMO. OTOH MURA's skating skill is so underrated. Not saying he's as good as Patrick (nobody is!) but pretty good. His strokes are so strong that he only needs few to go across the ice. (This may be why people often think he just skates w/o any transions.) Also w/ excellent control & deep edge, going in different direction smoothly. Also I actually think CHEN has better skating skill than RIPPON, because he manages this direction changes better w/ deeper edge.

Just because skaters are artistic, it does not makes them better at skating skill automatically. Or vice versa. Just because they're jumpers it does not make them less at skating skill either. Skating skill deals athletic aspects. I just don't like this stereotype impression.

TR TOP 5[TABLE="class: grid, width: 700"]
[TR]
[TD]1.FERNANDEZ 9.14[/TD]
[TD]2.RIPPON 8.32[/TD]
[TD]3.TEN 8.07[/TD]
[TD]4.MURA 7.79[/TD]
[TD]5.CHEN/GE 7.61[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Me not happy at all. I think TEN/MURA deserved more, or it was way too generous to RIPPON. IMO it's another stereotype. Just because they go for difficult jumps or do not have "showy" movement, it doesn't mean that they don't do stuff in b/w. IMO transitions using blades should be valued as much as, or even more than, upper body movement. So I actually counted strokes and turns of top 5 skaters. (There may be few mistakes, hard to concentrate when beautiful programs are going on! I am not an expert, so please take these numbers as a reference only! I'm open for any correction/suggestions form others who have better knowledge about transitions. )

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 700"]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Bwd. Cross[/TD]
[TD]Fwd. Cross[/TD]
[TD]Turns[/TD]
[TD]Major skating movement[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]FERNANDEZ[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]45[/TD]
[TD]2 Ina, Lunge, Few choreographic routines[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]RIPPON[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]12[/TD]
[TD]36[/TD]
[TD]2 Walley, Choreographic routine after 3A+2T[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]TEN[/TD]
[TD]19[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]53[/TD]
[TD]Choreographic routine after 2nd spin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]MURA[/TD]
[TD]16[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]51[/TD]
[TD]Choreographic routine after first spin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]CHEN[/TD]
[TD]28[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]43[/TD]
[TD]Choreographic routine at start[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]GE[/TD]
[TD]34[/TD]
[TD]10[/TD]
[TD]36[/TD]
[TD]Ina, Few eagle[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I'm not bashing, really. But Adam does too many basic crossovers and less turns than others, for that score. Yes, his performance was beautiful, but rather empty in terms of transition IMO. I actually feel the same way about Shoma's program too. (Because they are artistic in presentation, judges are mesmerized & deceived maybe?) Javi does more choreographic routines, thus high marks I guess, but he also does CO a lot, I was surprised.

PE TOP 5
[TABLE="class: grid, width: 700"]
[TR]
[TD]1.FERNANDEZ 9.04[/TD]
[TD]2.RIPPON 8.96[/TD]
[TD]3.TEN 8.93[/TD]
[TD]4.MURA 8.21[/TD]
[TD]5.GE 8.14[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

IMO RIPPON should be above FERNANDEZ. Adam's commitment to the performance was something. Javi may be tired from CoR and that nasty fall seemed to drain his energy slightly. TEN's intense concentration gave me chills, but ATST, he looked nervous. I don't blame him, coming back from injuries. Welcome back, Denis!! Oh, Takahito, please look up more! You're a lot sexier than you think!

CO TOP 5
[TABLE="class: grid, width: 700"]
[TR]
[TD]1.FERNANDEZ 9.39[/TD]
[TD]2.RIPPON 8.75[/TD]
[TD]3.TEN 8.68[/TD]
[TD]4.GE 8.11[/TD]
[TD]5.MURA/CHEN 8.07[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

I never fully understood what's been evaluated here since they changed from CH/CO to CO. Does it still evaluate choreography too?

IN TOP 5
[TABLE="class: grid, width: 700"]
[TR]
[TD]1.FERNANDEZ 9.39[/TD]
[TD]2.RIPPON 9.11[/TD]
[TD]3.TEN 8.86[/TD]
[TD]4.GE 8.32[/TD]
[TD]5.MURA 8.07[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

RIPPON should be above FERNANDEZ IMO. Although I am not a big fan of too much "literal miming", Adam WAS a beautiful bird throughout the program w/ gorgeous arms. Javi was more "Javi than Elvis" maybe. TEN's musicality is always brilliant. I wish GE and MURA had higher mark. It's difficult to be noticed than more obvious interpretation (like Adam or Javi's), but these two presented great interpretation of music, Misha w/ beautiful ballet-like movement and Mura w/ heavy strokes accentuated with soft hands. (Not in TOP5 but CHEN's interpretation was great too!)

---

I wish one day ISU realizes that having similar marks for all 5 PCS categories does not make sense. Someone can have high SS and low PE that particular day, for example. Just saying... Although I complained about few judging decisions, I enjoyed FS. Congrats for Javi, Denis and Adam! I actually LOVED Nathan's program. His and Mura's are the ones I repeat most. I'm so happy for my man, Takahito with that wonderful FS and his new sexy hair.
Oh I'm still mad at that ice condition though. Skaters' safety MUST come first, no matter what!! :dev2:

Geek On Ice, Thanks for your analysis! I think this content deserves an independent thread within the Trophee de France.

I agree with many points in your insightful and informative assessment. The point that Mura should've gotten more points on his SS. I think you tried to remain as objectively as possible. :agree: