2018 US Men's Oly/World/4CC team announced

TontoK said:

My concern with a rigid points based system with factors over a season or two is that it leaves little room for an emerging skater that hits like bolt of lightning just in time.

Even most of us, devout skating fans who follow the sport, had taken any notice of Bradie Tennell before Thanksgiving. How would she have shaken out in such a system?

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I can’t think of a single reason not to take your top two finishers at nationals and use a criteria only in a tie break situation for a third spot and that’s if it’s even available. Body of work is so worthless IMO. Sorry guys...put up when it counts! Nothing should be guaranteed based on unrelated events. It won’t help you at Worlds or Olympics so why should it anywhere else?

I don’t like the idea of a point based system unless everyone is given the same opportunity to get the same points. There needs to be a chance for skaters to create their own fate and capitalize on those successes. Protecting and saving skaters who make errors just plays to everything at the root of all the problems in the sport. It’s an embraced concept that is accepted and utilized within the PCS scoring. You see it when skaters fall all too frequently. Also why I wish they’d reduce PCS.

ivy said:

Yes, I love Adam, but he has no WC medal, no GPF medal, no 4CCs medal and he's been doing this a long time. He had a good '17 GP season but only managed 5th at the GPF. He doesn't have the results that justify this deference.

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How many years has Adam been trying his quad Lutz? Has he ever landed it? Without a fall? With a plus GOE? Inquiring minds want to know!

Blades of Passion said:

Finlandia doesn't matter. It's an early season competition and Vincent's showing there was not some kind of landmark. Nor did Vincent "deliver" at either 2017 or 2018 Nationals. His skating at Nationals 2017 was entirely Junior level and he received inflated PCS just for doing a Quad. In 2018 he is a degree better but still far inferior to top level quality PCS. None of these showings are close to medal contender worthy for the Olympics.

Ross at Nationals skated better than Vincent ever has at a Senior event. Vincent's one great showing has been at a JUNIOR event. If the committee said their goal was picking the most likely people to medal, then Ross at Nationals showed he can deliver better than Vincent ever has at this level.

It's also unfair to just write off Vincent's inconsistency as him being 16. There's no reason to give him leeway for ups and downs and not Ross. If anything that should be further reason against sending Vincent - he doesn't have as much experience as Ross.

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False. Finlandia was a tier 3 competition (Challenger series) that factored into their decision making.

This is the best Miner can deliver at the senior level. And that is 0.68 less than Vincent who under-performed at Nationals compared to Finlandia and Cup of a China. So if Zhou performed closer to his better performances he would easily beat Miner at his best.

I don't buy the whole Ross "having experience" thing either. He has more years on the circuit, sure, but with all his exta experience Vincent has better international scores/results. And with all his extra years of experience his personal best is 248.92 (from 2015 Rostelecom)... compared to Vincent's personal best of 258.11 (and has scored above 250 internationally twice this season).

Also it's ridiculous to suggest Zhou didn't deliver at 2017 Nationals (or 2018 Nationals placing top 3 at that). He medaled both years but didn't deliver?!? LOL. In 2017 Zhou landed 3 quads across both programs. Such double standards of you, to say him placing 2nd in 2017 is negligible, but then go on with saying Ross with 1 quad attempt in his FS coming 2nd is all of a sudden is so significant that it negates the fact that Miner has not had a single solid international competition in 2 seasons and at least Zhou with his tech issues and low PCs has at least pulled 250 twice this season when the best Miner has managed is 233.

Well whatever you says the numbers speak for themselves. Miner had a stellar Nationals but the selection committee clearly chose not to gamble given other skaters had had more consistent seasons and results. You also diminish the fact Zhou had his best comp at Junior Worlds but let's remember that Zhou should have gone to Worlds but Brown who placed 9 points behind him at Nationals was sent instead --- didn't hear your complaints then about 2nd place Zhou getting displaced out of Worlds in favour of 3rd place Brown (although since it's Brown, I wouldn't expect you to complain).

And that's all besides the point -- rules are rules and based on criteria the committee set out, it's painfully obvious to anyone who has been paying attention to this season that Vincent is a way safer bet. And it's wayyy more likely that Vincent improves on his Nationals (having already shown that at CoC and Finlandia THIS season), than it is likely that Miner replicates these programs.

All the best to Miner at 4CC, but I wouldn't be surprised if he pulled a Mirai 2014 4CC... I think we'll see pretty quickly that there is a discrepancy between skating at home and skating internationally, the latter of which Miner has (so far) struggled with the past 2 seasons. Olympics are in South Korea, not South Carolina, just as a reminder.

TontoK said:

My concern with a rigid points based system with factors over a season or two is that it leaves little room for an emerging skater that hits like bolt of lightning just in time.

Even most of us, devout skating fans who follow the sport, had taken any notice of Bradie Tennell before Thanksgiving. How would she have shaken out in such a system?

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And yet, Bradie clearly did enough to get noticed by the USFS. They gave her a Senior B, and selected her to go to Skate America. She did great there, and the chance they took on her was rewarded. According to the criteria of the USFS, she did more than enough to get herself onto the team.

People keep acting like they didn't give Ross any chances, and yet, they did. They gave him a Senior B, they went out of their way to give him Skate America. He wasn't able to take full advantage of his opportunities.

If Jason's and Adam's places were reversed, I think that Adam would be the one who was the first alternate, and Jason would be the one who is going to the Olympics, so Nationals DOES matter, it just doesn't matter as much.

GGFan said:

I don't think the two things you mention are mutually exclusive: 1) the criteria was published and Mark knew about it and 2) Mark may not have understood all of the implications of said criteria. Note that what he's most pissed about was that Ross was not in the pool of potential Olympians at all. Mark could have thought to himself, "if Ross skates clean with a quad in the free and makes the podium he has a chance." The team announcement implies that there was nothing Ross could have done. The USFS never explicitly said that beforehand.

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Hmm. Well, I sort of think that if something is really important, you can usually find the information you need, either by looking at what others have done, or by asking. Ross has been a senior since 2010. Mark is not a rookie coach. Had Ross set the goal of making the Olympic team at the beginning of last season, I’m pretty sure they would have realized that there was more to it than just Nationals placement. But both of them seem to have been pretty passive. Im betting that had Ross placed 3d instead of 6th at Skate America this year and raised his Sb by 20 points, he probably would have been on the team with a second place finish at Nats. Basically the idea of the criteria is common sense, and I think Mark as an experienced coach could have and should have figured it out. JMO.

USFS should have instructed the judges at Nats to underscore the skaters whom they did not want to send to Pyonchang. Simple.

Tavi... said:

Hmm. Well, I sort of think that if something is really important, you can usually find the information you need, either by looking at what others have done, or by asking. Ross has been a senior since 2010. Mark is not a rookie coach. Had Ross set the goal of making the Olympic team at the beginning of last season, I’m pretty sure they would have realized that there was more to it than just Nationals placement. But both of them seem to have been pretty passive. Im betting that had Ross placed 3d instead of 6th at Skate America this year and raised his Sb by 20 points, he probably would have been on the team with a second place finish at Nats. Basically the idea of the criteria is common sense, and I think Mark as an experienced coach could have and should have figured it out. JMO.

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All I'm saying is that it is plausible given that this move was unprecedented (i.e. the 2nd place finisher) Mark and Ross did not think it was within the realm of possibility.

The truth may have been discoverable but then I have reservations that we're even discussing whether someone was in the know or not. That brings up accessibility issues and equal opportunity issues. I do not care for the lack of transparency and the amount of discretion in the hands of the federation. I posted a list of my selection process preferences.

ivy said:

Yes, I love Adam, but he has no WC medal, no GPF medal, no 4CCs medal and he's been doing this a long time. He had a good '17 GP season but only managed 5th at the GPF. He doesn't have the results that justify this deference.

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Adam has 4CC medal, he is 4CC CHAMPION (2010)!!! Or do you mean that he has no medals from this year?

GGFan said:

Well then there should be a transparent ranking that is posted with some kind of formula and everyone who comes to Nationals can know ahead of time whether they have a true shot or not. Telling us tiers still leaves out how much you're weighing each tier.

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There was a one-hour recap of the men at the beginning of the ice dance broadcast (that I just watched). They showed a list of "body of work" criteria with check marks for Ross, Vincent, and Adam. Though I believe they were in the order of the actual criteria, there was no indication that any criteria were more important than any others. It was just "Ross only had one check mark".

But by using and counting only check marks, it's like we're going back to the days of ordinals. It only matters if you're better, not by how much.



But clearly nationals are important to a large degree, because they only showed the top 4, like only the top 4 were in real contention. But maybe that's not real, and the selection committee actually considered all 22 or so skaters, and we were just shown the ones who were either podium or selected.

Anyway, they attempted to justify it, but it's left me more confused than enlightened.

mikeko666 said:

USFS should have instructed the judges at Nats to underscore the skaters whom they did not want to send to Pyonchang. Simple.

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They did.. Ashley Wagner and Angela Wang.

TCAngel18 said:

Exactlyyyyyy. That’s like the federation saying “maybe he won’t have UR problems”.

He ALWAYS has underrotation problems. There is nothing more Vincent can add, unless he reworks his jumping technique.

By rewarding him now with an Olympic berth, they are setting Vincent Zhou up to fail.

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Karen has had UR problems all season... and has failed to correct them. There's nothing more she can add unless she improves her technique. Are they setting her up to fail by rewarding her with an Olympic berth? :sarcasm:

I´m very, very sad for Miner, and I think that at least based on his silver medal he should have deserved to be the first alternate for OG and WC. It is understandable though that a skater needs to work real hard to get good enough results in many competitions during his/her career = get reputation gradually and not just really shine in one competition. I remember Rodnina´s wise words from the past: First a skater works for reputation and after that the reputation works for the skater...

Miner´s freeskate performance at US Nationals was something to remember and watch again and again!!!

Jaana said:

I´m very, very sad for Miner, and I think that at least based on his silver medal he should have deserved to be the first alternate for OG and WC. It is understandable though that a skater needs to work real hard to get good enough results in many competitions during his/her career = get reputation gradually and not just really shine in one competition. I remember Rodnina´s wise words from the past: First a skater works for reputation and after that the reputation works for the skater...

Miner´s freeskate performance at US Nationals was something to remember and watch again and again!!!

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I agree with this. He should have at least gotten 1st alternate at Worlds/Olympics. It's not like the 1st alternate is likely to compete but symbolically it would show that they acknowledge the importance of his silver at Nationals. Of course, going by their criteria it makes sense to have skaters who have medaled on the Grand Prix or more recently been to Worlds like Jason be considered first.

Ross is a great success at Nationals but he is a huge question mark internationally speaking. He had 3 competitions to prove he was a solid competitor internationally this season and his best was 233 and the other two were below 220.

It's a total slap in the face that Ross isn't even first alternate. Just embarrassing.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

This is the best Miner can deliver at the senior level. And that is 0.68 better than Vincent who under-performed at Nationals compared to Finlandia and Cup of a China. So if Zhou performed closer to his better performances he would easily beat Miner at his best.

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STOP saying Vincent underperformed at Nationals. He did not. THAT was Vincent's best competition showing ever as a Senior. He was beaten and should have beaten by a larger margin.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

I don't buy the whole Ross "having experience" thing either. He has more years on the circuit, sure, but with all his extra experience Vincent has better international scores/results.

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Vincent does not have better international results across their entire compared careers. Ross in prior international competitions has performed better than Vincent ever has at a senior competition. The window of those competitions was out of consideration, on paper, for the selection of this Olympic team, but if we are talking entire career experience then yeah. That is beside the point anyway though, because Ross Miner at 2018 Nationals outdid anything Vincent has ever achieved in Senior competition. THAT should exactly be what puts someone on an Olympic team. Skating better than your competitor has ever skated before, at the event that matters most, the event you've been trying to build up to the entire season.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Finlandia was a tier 3 competition (Challenger series) that factored into their decision making.

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Tier 3 is far below Tier 1, and again Vincent's skating at Finlandia was not something special. The result there is thus irrelevant.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Also it's ridiculous to suggest Zhou didn't deliver at 2017 Nationals (or 2018 Nationals placing top 3 at that). He medaled both years but didn't deliver?!? LOL.

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Zhou did not deliver at these two Nationals in the sense of doing something to make him an international medal threat. The selection committee said they were trying to pick the team with the best chance of a medal. Well guess what, the skating Ross did at 2018 Nationals has a higher chance of winning a medal than any performance Vincent has ever done as a Senior.

It could be said that Zhou perhaps has a better chance than Ross of a middling Olympic result, that Vincent's average competition showing has recently been better than the average competition showing from Ross, but this is irrelevant. Placing 12th vs 16th at the Olympics doesn't matter in terms of what is being looked for. Who cares if someone "fails harder". It's a fail either way.

I don't think that argument is accurate anyway though, because in earlier competitions Zhou has been let off the hook for underrotations. His scores on paper should be lower and tech panels are taking notice of his deficiencies. Simultaneously, Miner has been held down on PCS because of reputation. His skating has qualities that have not been properly rewarded, because of his lower jump content. Ross Miner IS a better skater than Vincent Zhou, this is obvious to anyone who knows skating.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

You also diminish the fact Zhou had his best comp at Junior Worlds but let's remember that Zhou should have gone to Worlds but Brown who placed 9 points behind him at Nationals was sent instead --- didn't hear your complaints then about 2nd place Zhou getting displaced out of Worlds in favour of 3rd place Brown.

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Junior Worlds is a whole different ballgame than Senior, way lower level of pressure. Zhou should not have been sent to Senior Worlds last season and he should NOT have placed 2nd at Nationals last season. He received undeserved PCS just for doing a Quad Sal, his skating was empty and childish. Brown was the better skater and should have outscored him.

Also, that Junior Worlds LP performance is the ONLY time in Zhou's entire career he has delivered to the level of something that makes him a relevant contender. None of his other performances are close to it, not as a Junior and not as a Senior. So again, Zhou has delivered ONCE in his entire career as a Junior and ZERO times as a Senior. Junior Worlds is far less important than Senior Nationals. Ross Miner outdid Zhou, delivering at the #1 most important event, rather than delivering once as a Junior and having some other random higher placements at events that are unimportant, because of the skating shown at those other events being inferior.

Don't want to get into the arguments here, but I want to ask - does the USFSA always aim to send the same skaters to both the Olympics and Worlds?

Back in 2014, it was a slightly different case, as the strongest skater in the team underperformed at Nationals. To me, the obvious solution then would have been to send Ashley and Gracie to both Olympics and Worlds, and have Polina and Mirai sharing the third slot:

Polina could go to the Olympics in Sochi, while Mirai could go to Worlds in Saitama.

And this would have worked out perfectly, because these two have family connections and, hence, big fanbases in those respective countries.

But, no, the USFSA sent the same three skaters to both. And Mirai (3[SUP]rd[/SUP] in Nationals) missed out.

This time it is a far more complicated situation, as all of the Top 6 have a legitimate claim for a slot.

To me, the obvious solution would be to send Nathan to both events, have the other 2 slots split. This would give 5 out of the Top 6 a chance to compete on the biggest stages we have this season.

But, no, that doesn't seem to be an option. And Ross (2[SUP]nd[/SUP] in Nationals) is the main casualty.

After the controversy there was the last time, I just can't believe that the USFSA are going down the same route again.

So, is it a specific policy of the USFSA to send the same skaters to both events?

If it is, it is time to change that policy. :agree:

CaroLiza_fan

Blades of Passion said:

STOP saying Vincent underperformed at Nationals. He did not. THAT was Vincent's best competition showing ever as a Senior. He was beaten and should have beaten by a larger margin.

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US Nationals 2018 was actually one of Vincent's sloppiest senior competitions, looking at significant SP +LP tech errors:

US Nationals 2018: 6 <, 1 <<, 2 falls; 2 good quads
CoC 2017: 3 <, 3 falls; 4 good quads
Finlandia 2017: 2 <, popped 3A; 4 good quads
US Nationals 2017: no < or << or falls; 3 good quads

At Finlandia, he won the FS (over Jin and Rippon), landing 4F, 4S and 4T, and just a hand down on a fully rotated opening 4Z. At CoC, he did 4Z, 4F, 4T, almost winning the FS there. But at 2018 Nationals, he did a clean 4Z and then the remaining quads were all short of rotation. His 2018 Nationals FS would have dropped him to 5th place (from silver) at Finlandia and to 6th place instead of 4th at CoC. 2018 Nats is the only time this senior season that Zhou hasn't landed at least 2 clean, rotated quads in his FS. In fact, at Nationals he had no fully rotated 4F, a jump that he's at least rotated in every other senior competition this season. Nats was also his only competition this season where he didn't execute at least 2 clean quads in his FS. Point being: he wasn't as clean as he could be and has been this season (although of course, he also had his highest planned difficulty at Nationals with 7 quads and 3 axels).

Blades of Passion said:

Vincent does not have better international results across their entire compared careers. Ross in prior international competitions has performed better than Vincent ever has at a senior competition.

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Please. Let's not use this "entire compared careers"/"prior international competitions" rhetoric. Vincent hasn't even completed his first full senior season. This Miner's 8th senior season.

For sure, Miner outskated Zhou at 2018 Nationals... but Zhou has skated better than Miner internationally and recently. And who cares about "prior international competitions" - the Olympic team should be based on RECENT international competitions.

The last "prior international competition" where Miner skated well was Rostelecom 2015 where he earned bronze (by a hair over Rippon and a debut from Kolyada). It is the only time he's ever scored above 240 internationally. Zhou has already done so 4 times. And in the past two seasons, Miner hasn't placed higher than 5th in any international competition. The only other time other than Rostelecom 2015 where he was in the top 5 of a GP was when he got bronze at NHK in 2012, which was the only time he's ever successfully landed a quad internationally.

In fact, Miner has only ever landed a quad just twice prior to Nationals 2018 -- NHK 2012 and 2016 US Classic. Zhou landed more clean quads at Finlandia 2017 alone than Ross has landed collectively in his "ENTIRE compared career". :sarcasm:

mikeko666 said:

USFS should have instructed the judges at Nats to underscore the skaters whom they did not want to send to Pyonchang. Simple.

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No, you must never mess with the scores. That's blatant cheating.

What the US Olympic committee should have done is to make the roster for the Olympics (based on BOW) known to those who should know (eg grapevine, coaches), and make it clear that if you are outside of this roster you do not stand a chance except as second alternate if you make it to the podium at Nationals. And the podium outside of this roster can only hope to go to 4CC. This way, veteran athletes who have participated in Nationals and who may not want to do any more Nationals except for the possibility of having a shot at the Olympics could decide if they want to spend more funds, sacrifice their time and health for something that they are unaware is beyond their reach. Those who are at the beginning of their skating career will of course continue to compete at Nationals. It seems Nathan, Adam and Jason/Vincent have always been on this roster.

Edit: I actually like the way the Russians are doing it - naming the athletes for Euros and telling them that their results there would determine who goes to the Olympics. This way, it is another international event that determines the outcome. Even their female Nathan, i.e. Med, who missed Nationals due to injury, is obliged to prove herself against the National podium.

brightphoton said:

Wow, Ross finishes below only Nathan, and he's still *second* alternate

Behind 6th place finisher Jason

This reminds me of the scene in I, Tonya, where Tonya berates the judges for not giving her the scores that her skating earned.

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I out-skated all the girls.

We also judge on presentation.

If you give me 5 thousand, maybe I can get a better costume.

Maybe you are not as good as you think. Maybe you need to go into a different sport.

shiroKJ said:

No Worlds for you Ross, here's a breadcrumb though- 1st alt :thumbsup:

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He did not get even a breadcrumb. He is 2nd alternate behind Jason. He received only the smell of one breadcrumb.