2013 4CCs Pairs FS

[TontoK]

I'm actually really excited for the Zhang/Bartolomay partnership.

Me, too! I know I've written it before, but I see something young and fresh about them. I really haven't even been interested in pairs for years... and in American pairs for longer than that. That the US national bronze medalists have caught my eye is fascinating to me.

Switching subjects: I know this is off the wall, but I wonder if a good dance coach would take them on. I think Dance is much more innovative than the other disciplines now, and dance teams seem to have better carriage, choreography, steps, line... and DEFINITELY better pair spins than the pairs do. Yeah, I know we're supposed to call them "dance spins" but you get what I mean. In addition, dance lifts may lack some of the daring that pairs lifts do, but overall they're more inventive and interesting.

Wouldn't it be crazy to get someone like Marina to choreograph a program for them... just an awesome program with the tricks sprinkled in.

 

[clairecloutier]

The judges really were on crack giving M-T/M PCS 2.5 points higher than to D/R.

M-T/M skated with a lot of power, yes, but their program was quite empty and they don't have the polish that D/R managed to acquire. D/R had much more complex choreography and a program with a lot of detail in it, presented beautifully.

I agree that M-T/M's program is a bit empty choreographically, and they're not stretching themselves artistically. The program is just so archetypally "North American pairs style"--the Muzak rock music, the boring costumes, the lack of choreographic detail and interest; just everything about it is generic.

On the other hand, I didn't really like D/R's program either. They are trying something different artistically this year, but it's not clicking. The program feels sort of workmanlike; it doesn't sing. And trying for a more lyrical style is somehow highlighting their differences as skaters, rather than their pairs quality. Eric handles the sweeping, romantic movement rather well, but I don't see that as much with Meagan.

I also think that Castelli/Shnapir were overmarked both on the GOE and the PCS. I was very surprised that Zhang/Bartolomay didn't manage to beat them in the FS at least.

This I don't agree with. I actually really enjoyed C/S's program (except for the SBS spins, which were almost comically bad). Now I'll admit I'm biased, because C/S are my hometown pair. Still, though, I really like this tango program. I find the choreography very interesting, and challenging, and they're looking more comfortable and confident with it all the time. I like how the choreography really highlights Marissa at various points. This is smart--she's a great performer, and they need to use that.

I enjoyed Zhang/Bartholomay quite a bit, but don't think they deserved to beat C/S. Z/B started off well, but the program got away from them a bit in the second half. Not only did they fall on the second throw, but also their pairs spin and final lift were well behind the music and needed to be rotating much faster. I think they did really well to get 4th, though. And I do like this team. They seem really well matched in most ways--their personalities work well together on ice--so I look forward to seeing more of them. Hopefully they'll get some GP assignments next year. My advice to them: Get away from Peterson and find a new coach who can help you develop artistically. Peterson IMO is almost as bad as Tom Z when it comes to stunting his skaters' artistic growth.

 

[Ziggy]

In fairness, the judges only should be able to see beyond that. They've demonstrated time and time again that the wow factor, whether it be quads, hip thrusts, or loud music, will make PCS skyrocket. I just think we need to lower our expectations a bit.

Yeah I know but it's not right. *throws a strop*

Components are exactly based on the "wow effect"

They shouldn't be though. They have a set of criteria that they are supposed to be based on.
Program Components Explanations

If you've ever seen them both skate live there's no doubt that MT/Ms components are better D/Rs. D/Rs strength is their first score (technical).

Speed probably yes (although it's easier to skate faster if your program construction is less complex) but what else are M-T/M better in?

This I don't agree with. I actually really enjoyed C/S's program (except for the SBS spins, which were almost comically bad). Now I'll admit I'm biased, because C/S are my hometown pair. Still, though, I really like this tango program. I find the choreography very interesting, and challenging, and they're looking more comfortable and confident with it all the time. I like how the choreography really highlights Marissa at various points. This is smart--she's a great performer, and they need to use that.

I enjoyed Zhang/Bartholomay quite a bit, but don't think they deserved to beat C/S. Z/B started off well, but the program got away from them a bit in the second half. Not only did they fall on the second throw, but also their pairs spin and final lift were well behind the music and needed to be rotating much faster. I think they did really well to get 4th, though. And I do like this team. They seem really well matched in most ways--their personalities work well together on ice--so I look forward to seeing more of them. Hopefully they'll get some GP assignments next year. My advice to them: Get away from Peterson and find a new coach who can help you develop artistically. Peterson IMO is almost as bad as Tom Z when it comes to stunting his skaters' artistic growth.

I do agree that Duhamel/Radford's FS doesn't necessarily "click" but it did seem to tick most of the PCS boxes. Which should be more important than whether you feel that you really like the program or not.

I do agree that Z/B's program started very well but they seemed to have run out of steam in the second half.

I think they were more elegant than C/S, though. The huge height difference between Castelli and Shnapir really highlights their subpar posture and lines (his in particular). And I wasn't buying their program at all. I felt like it did have some in-character tango-ish movements but that was mostly posing here and there and it didn't flow well or work well as a whole.

 

[Skater Boy]

the judges really were on crack giving m-t/m pcs 2.5 points higher than to d/r.

M-t/m skated with a lot of power, yes, but their program was quite empty and they don't have the polish that d/r managed to acquire. D/r had much more complex choreography and a program with a lot of detail in it, presented beautifully.

I understand that m-t/m really gave it 110% and had this "wow effect" but the judges should be able to see beyond that and judge pcs appopriately.


I also think that castelli/shnapir were overmarked both on the goe and the pcs. I was very surprised that zhang/bartolomay didn't manage to beat them in the fs at least.

I'd also have lawrence/swiegers further ahead of pang/zhang in the fs. They skated beautifully, good flow, quite elegant. P/z, on the other hand, were a hot mess. Yeah 4twist was great but they didn't even pretend to skate to the music and it looked like she was being dragged across the ice by him.

ita

 

[Skater Boy]

The two Canadians teams just added their names into the mix for a world medal. B and L are coming back from injured and have sort of moved ahead of K and S - for now - and I am not so sure why K and S were dropped so abruptly. Pang and Tong with his injury and age are hugely questionable. The Italians are inconsistent. T and T are gone and even if they were skating were hit or miss. sui and han are coming back from injury so the door is open if eithe rteam can skate clean. They aren't all that special but such is life.

 

[icebeauty]

Me, too! I know I've written it before, but I see something young and fresh about them. I really haven't even been interested in pairs for years... and in American pairs for longer than that. That the US national bronze medalists have caught my eye is fascinating to me.

Switching subjects: I know this is off the wall, but I wonder if a good dance coach would take them on. I think Dance is much more innovative than the other disciplines now, and dance teams seem to have better carriage, choreography, steps, line... and DEFINITELY better pair spins than the pairs do. Yeah, I know we're supposed to call them "dance spins" but you get what I mean. In addition, dance lifts may lack some of the daring that pairs lifts do, but overall they're more inventive and interesting.

Wouldn't it be crazy to get someone like Marina to choreograph a program for them... just an awesome program with the tricks sprinkled in.

OOOH! i like this idea. and you have an excellent point that ice dance has progressed so much in innovation/keeping it fresh while pairs skating feels like it's been the same for YEARS. obviously, with the big flashy tricks, pairs teams spend so much time working on those that everything else in their programs often feel the same/bland. (don't get me started on the horrendous-ness that is a paris spin...like shouldn't they be able to do what the dance teams are doing? better speed, centering, postions...it's the same concept, right?). There's no apparent reason why a pair team can't get some of the skating skills/presence the dance teams do (granted they have to stay together long enough to get to that point...)
I think Zhang/Bartholomay are a team that has the potential to be awesome, and considering how much both of them love to skate (you just see it when they're out there), i really hope they they keep developing. They look good on the ice (good positions and posture and they have good flow across th ice and their speed is good compared to other teams). They have a solid foundation -- they have the skills, and now it's about consistency and getting the levels -- to build something special and i hope they do! it'll be interesting to see if they eventually go for harder solo jumps (changing that 2a-2a seq to a triple jump-2a seq? -- they have excellent timing on that sequence and look good doing it. i'm not fan of combos for pairs b/c unless you're absolutely sure you can hit it every time you put a lot of points at risk -- and doing a 3s (or another triple) as the solo?). Felicia was a solid singles skater so they have that to their advantage and they fact that such a young team can skate to WSS successfully and comfortably speaks volumes about their artistry and chemistry...and with their ages 19 and 23 there's not reason why they can't stay together through at least 2018!

 

[TontoK]

OOOH! i like this idea. and you have an excellent point that ice dance has progressed so much in innovation/keeping it fresh while pairs skating feels like it's been the same for YEARS. obviously, with the big flashy tricks, pairs teams spend so much time working on those that everything else in their programs often feel the same/bland. (don't get me started on the horrendous-ness that is a paris spin...like shouldn't they be able to do what the dance teams are doing? better speed, centering, postions...it's the same concept, right?). There's no apparent reason why a pair team can't get some of the skating skills/presence the dance teams do (granted they have to stay together long enough to get to that point...)
I think Zhang/Bartholomay are a team that has the potential to be awesome, and considering how much both of them love to skate (you just see it when they're out there), i really hope they they keep developing. They look good on the ice (good positions and posture and they have good flow across th ice and their speed is good compared to other teams). They have a solid foundation -- they have the skills, and now it's about consistency and getting the levels -- to build something special and i hope they do! it'll be interesting to see if they eventually go for harder solo jumps (changing that 2a-2a seq to a triple jump-2a seq? -- they have excellent timing on that sequence and look good doing it. i'm not fan of combos for pairs b/c unless you're absolutely sure you can hit it every time you put a lot of points at risk -- and doing a 3s (or another triple) as the solo?). Felicia was a solid singles skater so they have that to their advantage and they fact that such a young team can skate to WSS successfully and comfortably speaks volumes about their artistry and chemistry...and with their ages 19 and 23 there's not reason why they can't stay together through at least 2018!

Bolded for emphasis. EXACTLY! You've hit on what has bothered me the past few years in pairs.

It's become stale. The programs all look similar. They lack innovation. I suppose the SBS tricks are getting harder, but the programs are just boring. The pairs could practically draw their music out of a hat, and it wouldn't matter.

ITA regarding pairs spins. Compare most pair spins with the spins done by virtually any of the top/second tier of ice dance teams... and the difference in quality is staggering.

 

[Skater Boy]

Sad so little talk about pairs compared to the other disciplines. Maybe because the pairs lacked the very top teams unlike the other disciplines who had at least one representative of the best. Nothing against Zhang or Duhamel et al but now we have failed single skaters so to speak trying to skate pairs to get the sbs jumps. The programs are generic even S squared reproduce the same tricks and transitions that seemed to be squeezed into new music Where are the programs yes Zueva, Nicol and Wilson need to do their magic. And for whatever reason there is a staleness. It seems like Ssquared, pang and tong, K and S have been around for ever; on the other end the Americans change partners, retire and split more times than you change the channel on your flatscreen. Hard to become ahousehold name when you change partners like underwear.

 

[icebeauty]

i personally wouldn't say that Zhang is a "failed pairs skater." She was good moving up the junior ranks, but chose not to make the leap to senior. It's hard to train two events at the senior level, and I think she's a better pairs skater anyways...she seems to enjoy it more