2014-2015 GPF Ladies Free Skate 12/13

[Alba]

I hated Carolina's telegraphing of jumps too. And yes, Yuna had gorgeous jumps. I also always liked Joannie Rochette's jumps. A lot of power and flow. Personally, I's a bit biased toward big jumps with lots of flow. And a good balance of height and distance.

Well, I wouldn't call it a bias. That's the perfect jump, isn't it.
I still adore today Kulik's 3 Axel because of that. His 3A on the floor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK_NmZyyo9w

Just

 

[peg]

Well, I wouldn't call it a bias. That's the perfect jump, isn't it.
I still adore today Kulik's 3 Axel because of that. His 3A on the floor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK_NmZyyo9w

Just

And that video had Emanuel Sandhu too. Probably the most talented man to never win even a World championship medal. Sigh. I once saw him live when he as totally on, and it was absolutely spectacular.

 

[creaturelover]

"Lazy choreography" is YOUR opinion, not everyone's. I like Liza's presentation and so do many others. And btw, yes she does get ballet training. All of Mishin's students do.

I love Liza's presentation, but she can certainly improve the transitions. But I agree, the choreography isn't 'lazy' and I personally adore the program!

 

[hippomoomin]

I really hope to find more information about Anna. If you go back to watch her 2013 GPF, she looked quite ill/injured at the end too; similar scenario happened in her short at Russian Nationals. I mean nobody can guarantee the jumps are going to work every time, but for her, the spins and the balance she lost were quite puzzling.

 

[hippomoomin]

In my opinion, Elena's jumps can survive better than Yulia's. I am almost certain Elena won't grow much wider than she is now, but Yulia has gained some "weight" in her upper body this season. Plus, Elena's jumps are higher, and her natural narrow frame helps with rotation.

 

[Sandpiper]

I think people tend to forget that this is her first year in seniors, and first GP's+GPF.

Anna participated in the GP series last year, and made GPF (came in last there though... so I guess this year was actually an improvement ).

That's what frustrates me the most. She has great jumping technique, but Mishin (probably not just him) never bother developing the rest of her arsenal. What is with that LAZY choreography? I'm not even talking about those silly blow-kisses... I'm actually fine with those if there's anything else choreographically in the program. All her choreography moves are between elbow and fingernail, with an occasional head tilt. ...

Liza's programs are some of my favourites this season. Her arms are lovely, her step sequences are dynamic, and she has some difficult (and choreographically fitting) entries/exits to her jumps. Maybe the choreography isn't to your taste (which is perfectly valid), but that doesn't mean it's lazy.

Her sit spin is fine--I have no idea what you're talking about there. Her Biellmann is slow, but at least she stays in place and attains a decent position (unlike, say, Hongo or Pogorilaya). (Btw, do you mean to complain about Plushenko's Biellmann being slow? Back when he did one, his main opponents weren't spinning any better... even without doing Biellmanns of their own. Do you expect a male 6.0 era skater to have a Biellmann like a COP-trained lady? )

Not everyone can be spinning tops like Yulia... just like not everyone can jump huge lutzes like Liza. Everyone has their own style and strengths. I don't see why you're singling out Liza in particular, when there's been no perfect skater since skating began.

Btw, Mishin's students do ballet training.

 

[Alba]

Anna participated in the GP series last year, and made GPF (came in last there though... so I guess this year was actually an improvement ).

Oh right. I'm the one who doesn't remember, then. :hopelessness:
Still, as you said this is an improvement, and why not? Let's look the positive side.

In my opinion, Elena's jumps can survive better than Yulia's. I am almost certain Elena won't grow much wider than she is now, but Yulia has gained some "weight" in her upper body this season. Plus, Elena's jumps are higher, and her natural narrow frame helps with rotation.

I have no idea about their weight, but I saw both of them at TEB. Yulia looks thinner and smaller than Elena actually. I don't know if someone else who was there saw the same thing or not.

 

[Pepe Nero]

Oh right. I don't remember her, then. :hopelessness:
Still, as you said this is an improvement. Why not? Look at the positive side.



I have no idea about their weight, but I saw both of them at TEB. Yulia looks thinner and smaller than Elena actually. I don't know if someone else who was there saw the same thing or not.

Wow...comments about female figure skaters' weight and body shape. This is such a surprise to see.

Anyway, just came on here tonight to say that Ashley Wagner is my new hero! What an amazing FS. I really didn't think so before tonight, but she is clearly in it for the long haul, and a world medal contender. I think she has pretty clearly reclaimed her position as the top American figure skater now, having very clearly earned her bronze among the Russian onslaught at the GPF.

 

[Alba]

Wow...comments about female figure skaters' weight and body shape. This is such a surprise to see.

You are quoting the wrong person. I simply replied to another user. We are not criticising anybody's weight or body shape here, let alone offending. We're speaking about two young skaters growing not "weight" as in fat.
So take back that ironic tone and put it wherever you wish, but do not throw it on me.
Thank you very much.

 

[rollerblade]

Her Biellmann is slow, but at least she stays in place and attains a decent position (unlike, say, Hongo or Pogorilaya). (Btw, do you mean to complain about Plushenko's Biellmann being slow? Back when he did one, his main opponents weren't spinning any better... even without doing Biellmanns of their own. Do you expect a male 6.0 era skater to have a Biellmann like a COP-trained lady? )

Not everyone can be spinning tops like Yulia... just like not everyone can jump huge lutzes like Liza. Everyone has their own style and strengths. I don't see why you're singling out Liza in particular, when there's been no perfect skater since skating began.

I like Liza. I wanted her to win here and I'm happy she did! Note that I wasn't even talking about her presentation. I was talking about her choreography, which is not her fault. She didn't choreograph it, someone else did.

Now about Plush... yea I could've phrased that better. I -love- Plush's 1998 programs! [Short , Free] The details, the rise & fall of transitions, so good. Compare that to his programs in 2006 Oly, especially that freeskate.... it's not even close!

Basically I brought up Plush as a comparison. Not complaining about his Biellmann lol, although his spins in general did regress over the years. But the main point is I felt Liza deserves better choreography than what she's given. (For the record, I liked her Malaguena program) I don't know Mishin's strategy, but I hope it doesn't follow the path of Plush's programs of jump-spin and not much else in between (again, strictly talking about choreo).

 

[zamboni step]

It was nice to see Ashley skate well but the tech caller was very lenient. The 3T in combo was < as usual and the 3S was <<. Even that 2T at the end of the 2A was <. She pre-rotates those jump so much. They haven't left her enough time at the end of the program either. She can't keep having rushed endings. Overall - good performance quality, but it's too bad she keeps not having the correct vehicles.

I didn't think the rotation was actually that bad, the 3S is arguable but I definitely wouldn't hit the 3T with a <.

I'm going to be very unpopular for saying this but I think the reason she needs more time at the end of the program is because the end of the program is the only part that's any good. The rest of that program's choreography is just so smaulchy and trite, it lacks nuance. I seriously can't believe the heart grabbing and face stroking to interpret the lines from "The Show Must Go On" it makes me uncomfortable. The jumps are poorly laid out until near the very end and I thought that whole section to "One Day I'll Fly Away" was obvious and lacked the true poignancy of the song. So I'd heavily disagree those claiming she deserved 66+ in PCS.

I'd like to state I do think Ashley has the potential to be the best artistically by a considerable margin in the current field. Her SS were the best by far, the power she had going at the start was amazing and I loved it, and again I quite enjoyed the last section of her program. I think Ashley is a very good skater with a lot of ability, it's just that she hasn't been given the vehicle since Black Swan. If she could get a program like that again, it'd be magical.

 

[jenaj]

Yes, although they are higher this season, but jumps are not only about height.
I loved Slutskaya's jumps for their height an power, when she hit them. I hated Buturskaya's because she was so stiff. I loved Kwan's jumps, although they were not as big as Irina's.
Carolina had beautiful technique and speed in her jumps but I hated that long preparation.
I think the only one I could call a perfect jumper was Yuna.

Don't forget the best jumper of all, Midori Ito. Her triple axel was better than many men's and she did the 3- loop, too.

 

[Icey]

And Harding did a triple ax/ double toe loop

 

[OS]

I'm going to be very unpopular for saying this but I think the reason she needs more time at the end of the program is because the end of the program is the only part that's any good. The rest of that program's choreography is just so smaulchy and trite, it lacks nuance. I seriously can't believe the heart grabbing and face stroking to interpret the lines from "The Show Must Go On" it makes me uncomfortable. The jumps are poorly laid out until near the very end and I thought that whole section to "One Day I'll Fly Away" was obvious and lacked the true poignancy of the song. So I'd heavily disagree those claiming she deserved 66+ in PCS.

Actually i revised my post after consider past levels of 60s. I only said 66, because Liza got 65, and I think Ashely in interpretation, performance and choreography deserve to be higher on a relative basis. But infact they are all over marked due to the current inflation with the Russian babies. Afterall....Julia getting 60 for that?!

Consider Yuna and Mao used to get around 60 and 59s around 2007 early in their career for skating the lights out with world records and really great performances as CarneAsada point out on the SP thread... I will stick to my original argument, the Russian girls are over marked by 3-5 points. It is a bit unfair for veterans like Ashley since she had to earn her PCS the old fashion way and she shouldn't be handicapped by this time warp/jump the Russian babies have been given. As much as I love Liza, she is no Carolina Kostner, and she got Kostner level did at WC2012... that is just crazy! The program is B rated at best.

 

[Sandpiper]

I like Liza. I wanted her to win here and I'm happy she did! Note that I wasn't even talking about her presentation. I was talking about her choreography, which is not her fault. She didn't choreograph it, someone else did.

Now about Plush... yea I could've phrased that better. I -love- Plush's 1998 programs! [Short , Free] The details, the rise & fall of transitions, so good. Compare that to his programs in 2006 Oly, especially that freeskate.... it's not even close!

Basically I brought up Plush as a comparison. Not complaining about his Biellmann lol, although his spins in general did regress over the years. But the main point is I felt Liza deserves better choreography than what she's given. (For the record, I liked her Malaguena program) I don't know Mishin's strategy, but I hope it doesn't follow the path of Plush's programs of jump-spin and not much else in between (again, strictly talking about choreo).

But Liza's choreography is not jump-spin and nothing else. It has clear preceding steps into many jumps, some interesting entries/exits (spiral into double axel, with a kick on the exit), 'tano, levels on everything, use of the upper body in StSq and choreography (maybe a bit wild in this GPF version of Bolero--YMMV if that's a problem). She does have dramatics and old-school Russian flair... but that doesn't mean her choreography is simple or lazy. It just means you're not personally a fan of the style--which is okay, of course.

Of course there are things Liza has to work on: Her Biellmann does slow down, as you mentioned, and she doesn't fly into all her jumps as smoothly as some girls (her flip in particular does have a clear set-up). She could work on her speed across the ice. She's not the perfect skater, but nor is anyone else... even if they're not Mishin's students.

But maybe we're just talking over each other, because our tastes in programs are so different. That Jean Michel Jarre Medley is probably my third least favourite Plushenko program (only knocked off the top spot because Bolero was just too weird and Saber Dance made my ears bleed). It hit the nuances of the music but didn't seem to have an emotional thread. The step sequence in particular wasn't nearly as difficult or exciting as he'd later pull off (see: Michael Jackson Medley, Adagio, St. Petersburg 300). And while the 2006 Olympics version of Godfather wasn't very good, I'd take the 04-05 GPF version over his 1998 programs any day.

(Btw, Plushenko's spins didn't regress over the years. They went up and down. His sit spin was best when he was a 15-ish, and got worse, reaching an all-time low in 2002. He gradually improved his spins after that, and did some great ones in the 2006 Olympics SP. His spins started going downhill again from 2012-2014... but to be expected considering his injuries and age).

 

[mustafakent]

Actually i revised my post after consider past levels of 60s. I only said 66, because Liza got 65, and I think Ashely in interpretation, performance and choreography deserve to be higher on a relative basis. But infact they are all over marked due to the current inflation with the Russian babies. Afterall....Julia getting 60 for that?!

Consider Yuna and Mao used to get around 60 and 59s around 2007 early in their career for skating the lights out with world records and really great performances as CarneAsada point out on the SP thread... I will stick to my original argument, the Russian girls are over marked by 3-5 points. It is a bit unfair for veterans like Ashley since she had to earn her PCS the old fashion way and she shouldn't be handicapped by this time warp/jump the Russian babies have been given. As much as I love Liza, she is no Carolina Kostner, and she got Kostner level did at WC2012... that is just crazy! The program is B rated at best.

This is exactly what I have been thinking.Every, little, word.

 

[rain]

Actually i revised my post after consider past levels of 60s. I only said 66, because Liza got 65, and I think Ashely in interpretation, performance and choreography deserve to be higher on a relative basis. But infact they are all over marked due to the current inflation with the Russian babies. Afterall....Julia getting 60 for that?!

Consider Yuna and Mao used to get around 60 and 59s around 2007 early in their career for skating the lights out with world records and really great performances as CarneAsada point out on the SP thread... I will stick to my original argument, the Russian girls are over marked by 3-5 points. It is a bit unfair for veterans like Ashley since she had to earn her PCS the old fashion way and she shouldn't be handicapped by this time warp/jump the Russian babies have been given. As much as I love Liza, she is no Carolina Kostner, and she got Kostner level did at WC2012... that is just crazy! The program is B rated at best.

Yes, this has been a problem the last few seasons. The PCS inflation for the young Russian ladies has led the way and been the biggest, certainly, but I notice this trend for many up-and-coming skaters of other nationalities as well. The biggest problem with it is I wonder if it will inhibit their actual growth in the PCS areas, since, hey, they're getting the marks anyway. This is particularly a problem in posture for several of them, and in terms of actually skating to their music and having any feeling for it, well, they're almost, to a one, not very good at it. Some have more innate musicality that others and at least seem to hear their music, but none of them are placing any importance on this aspect of the performance. Some also have better choreography that masks some of the issues, but it is performed mechanically.

These young ladies all have tremendous technical ability. But I haven't seen a program yet that's won my heart.

 

[Noolan]

I think it all comes down to the problem of judges scaling PCS with the technical score. As long as the technical score keeps rising, component score will rise as well. And that problem may be caused by judges who are afraid of being too subjective with the scores. They try to stick with the objective parameters - the technical score, the scores from the previous competitions, the reputation of the skater. That way they make less mistakes, but the results become more predictable and in some cases inflated.

 

[zamboni step]

Actually i revised my post after consider past levels of 60s. I only said 66, because Liza got 65, and I think Ashely in interpretation, performance and choreography deserve to be higher on a relative basis. But infact they are all over marked due to the current inflation with the Russian babies. Afterall....Julia getting 60 for that?!

Consider Yuna and Mao used to get around 60 and 59s around 2007 early in their career for skating the lights out with world records and really great performances as CarneAsada point out on the SP thread... I will stick to my original argument, the Russian girls are over marked by 3-5 points. It is a bit unfair for veterans like Ashley since she had to earn her PCS the old fashion way and she shouldn't be handicapped by this time warp/jump the Russian babies have been given. As much as I love Liza, she is no Carolina Kostner, and she got Kostner level did at WC2012... that is just crazy! The program is B rated at best.

I can see where you're coming from but I don't think Ashley is really that far ahead of Elizaveta in terms of presentation. I don't think Ashley is far ahead in terms of PE and I don't even think she's ahead choreographically with this program. I'd say Ashley is much higher on SS but that and IN are the only ones where she was definitively better than Liza. I do agree about this insane PCS inflation considering only some seem to be benefiting from it. (How Julia got more PCS with that than Satoko from her SC FS I'll never understand).

Also I just realised something, if it hasn't been stated previously, the last two post-Olympic GPFs have been won by skaters who had a disappointing Olympic season having failed to qualify despite being the defending champion.

 

[OS]

I can see where you're coming from but I don't think Ashley is really that far ahead of Elizaveta in terms of presentation. I don't think Ashley is far ahead in terms of PE and I don't even think she's ahead choreographically with this program. I'd say Ashley is much higher on SS but that and IN are the only ones where she was definitively better than Liza. I do agree about this insane PCS inflation considering only some seem to be benefiting from it. (How Julia got more PCS with that than Satoko from her SC FS I'll never understand).

I am not sure what you mean she is not that far ahead? Not even by 0.1 - 0.3 points per category? ie/ 1 point overall?


Julia is still climbing down from her crazy OGM inflation from Sochi. If she don't deliver, it will (should anyway) continue to decline. Though depends on how she get on at Russia Nationals, they may try to boost her to Sochi levels again @ European Championship to secure podium finish for the big one like last year = TOTAL JOKE! Although it is safe to say, they needn't worry this year. My estimate 2 Russian podium finisher = 90% guaranteed. US has 26% chance for a podium finish, this odds may improve depends on Gracie's recovery.

Satoko is still upcoming and a big question mark for me. Personally I still prefer Kanako at this point. Give it a few years of growth spurts and more varied programs I may change my mind. Her Miss Saigon is one of the better choreographed program this season but physically (performance sport wise) she is just not quite there yet. The only thing I will put her FS over Kanako's FS PCS is in choreography.

It is a personal thing, but I have always prefer skaters who can skate big, jump big, deep edges, good speed, nuanced expressions, well controlled upper body movement, nice use of arms, good musicality that attacks their programs to generate a memorable overall impression with personality. Appear to skate freely even not always perfect. I don't mind seeing skaters struggle like Liza did, because it is a natural part of gaining success, and skaters can gain alot from failing. They fight, they make mistakes, they learn, they become stronger. It makes their success taste sweeter. Like Liza did here, like Ashley did here, like Hanyu did here.

In any case, it seems the judges are unsure too about how they should place Satoko with Kanako internationally, so both may be cancelling each other's PCS bonuses. I don't think JSF is sure themselves? Although I suspect, JSF may be more willing to put their weight behind Satoko due to her longer mileage and potential. Japanese Nationals should be interesting especially with Rika gaining momentum out of no where. Actually the fact Japan have even more stronger men than ladies, in particularly Hanyu who's like to be on the podium 80% of the time with crazy tech, this will hardly benefit their ladies. Not when Russia has been starved for Gold for a decade since Irina, and the fact Mao just won her Gold last year in Japan. I'd totally shocked if any Japanese lady ends up on the WC podium this year. Nicely surprised, but totally shocked.