2014-2015 GPF Mens Free Skate 12/13

[Alba]

This discussion reminds me of a scene in the movie Amadeus.

Emperor Joseph II: My dear young man, don't take it too hard. Your work is ingenious. It's quality work. And there are simply too many notes, that's all. Just cut a few and it will be perfect.

Mozart: Which few did you have in mind, Majesty?

Oups sorry, you are right. Javi indeed is the Mozart of FS. I tend to forget that.

Sorry your Majesty for daring to discuss - in civilised manner and without patronising anyone - the LP of someone which I like. :sarcasm:

 

[DonneeDarko]

Oups sorry, you are right. Javi indeed is the Mozart of FS. I tend to forget that.

Sorry your Majesty for daring to discuss - in civilised manner and without patronising anyone - the LP of someone which I like. :sarcasm:

Lol. I think it's the choreographer who is Mozart. He/she decides or suggests the steps. Javi is the pianist.

 

[Sandpiper]

They both have some beautiful steps and moves integrated in their LPs. Tatsuki's steps are very wonderful except the fact that I see little connection to the music. He could have skated to Beethoven sym 6 or sym 3 with the same choreography IMO.

In short, I think too many difficult transitions cost them too much energy, thus they couldn't save it up for their jumps. A simplified version of their LP might be better choice.

And now I shudder to think about Yuzuru's 3 quads LP which he intends to come back in the latter half of this season. So scary.

I completely disagree about Machida. I think his movements are expertly timed to the music, and he is connected with Symphony No.9. If he weren't, I'd hate the program. In fact, I expected to hate it (seriously, while Carmen is overused in skating, Ode to Joy is overused in life). In a perfect world, I wouldn't change a thing about his program. But perhaps he needs to if he's to skate it cleanly. I dunno though... he came pretty close to a clean performance in SA, so maybe he just needs more training and better nerves.

Javi, I think, just has too many crazy entries and ends up flubbing the actual jump. He hasn't skated it close to clean at any of his competitions. He's still pulling decent marks considering the mistakes though.

 

[Mrs. P]

Lol. I think it's the choreographer who is Mozart. He/she decides or suggests the steps. Javi is the pianist.

Love to see another Pacific Northwesterner in the mix (I live in Washington state) and love the username! (One of my favorite movies).

 

[DonneeDarko]

Love to see another Pacific Northwesterner in the mix (I live in Washington state) and love the username! (One of my favorite movies).

We have good taste, at least similar taste, in movies!
I'm a newby skating fan/enthusiast who always appreciates your comments here. Perhaps that's because you're a philosopher of skating and my undergrad degree is in philosophy. Or there's something in this NW air and water....

 

[Meoima]

I completely disagree about Machida. I think his movements are expertly timed to the music, and he is connected with Symphony No.9. If he weren't, I'd hate the program. In fact, I expected to hate it (seriously, while Carmen is overused in skating, Ode to Joy is overused in life). In a perfect world, I wouldn't change a thing about his program. But perhaps he needs to if he's to skate it cleanly. I dunno though... he came pretty close to a clean performance in SA, so maybe he just needs more training and better nerves.
Javi, I think, just has too many crazy entries and ends up flubbing the actual jump. He hasn't skated it close to clean at any of his competitions. He's still pulling decent marks considering the mistakes though.

I couldn't enjoy Tatsuki's Lp at SA. It's not about clean or not clean. It's more like I couldn't see the cohesion of his elements there in SA. I actually enjoyed his LP at GPF despite the falls. Because he failed on the jumps I can see he trying to make up on steps and spins. But to be frankly he can skate to Beethoven 3 or 6, I feel the same. There're parts of program that I can see as beautiful. But overall I don't like it as a program using sym 9. The music overpowered him a bit at SA. And it overpowered him on a tougher level at TEB. Here in GPF I can feel it a bit because he tried so hard. But because he tried so hard I fear for his health. His program was designed to be extremely busy for higher PCS. But it's too busy, IMO it looks very exhausting.
At least Javi is more of an engaging entertainer, even when he skates not too clean people can still find it enjoyable to some extent. With a much more serious and overused music piece, it's much difficult to make it that way.

 

[Sandpiper]

I couldn't enjoy Tatsuki's Lp at SA. It's not about clean or not clean. It's more like I couldn't see the cohesion of his elements there in SA. I actually enjoyed his LP at GPF despite the falls. Because he failed on the jumps I can see he trying to make up on steps and spins. But to be frankly he can skate to Beethoven 3 or 6, I feel the same. There're parts of program that I can see as beautiful. But overall I don't like it as a program using sym 9. The music overpowered him a bit at SA. And it overpowered him on a tougher level at TEB. Here in GPF I can feel it a bit because he tried so hard. But because he tried so hard I fear for his health. His program was designed to be extremely busy for higher PCS. But it's too busy, IMO it looks very exhausting.
At least Javi is more of an engaging entertainer, even when he skates not too clean people can still find it enjoyable to some extent. With a much more serious and overused music piece, it's much difficult to make it that way.

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think Machida planned his program specifically so the music wouldn't overpower him--leaving the second axel and lutz really late, to go with the crescendo, ect. His SA performances were magical, the best men's skates of the season so far, imo.

Javi... I do think his comic program allows him to make mistakes without detracting from the overall experience. But if he makes too many mistakes, he risks the viewers laughing at him instead of with him.

 

[Meoima]

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think Machida planned his program specifically so the music wouldn't overpower him--leaving the second axel and lutz really late, to go with the crescendo, ect. His SA performances were magical, the best men's skates of the season so far, imo.
Javi... I do think his comic program allows him to make mistakes without detracting from the overall experience. But if he makes too many mistakes, he risks the viewers laughing at him instead of with him.

Personally I think Tatsuki's program looked better at GPF than at SA. He has gotten used to it but at the same time he lost the energy to execute it. At SA I felt extremely annoyed watching him because it was like "what what what what, that music that moves..." I mean seriously he did try really hard and the problem is he tried too hard. The same as the clip Alba has just posted here in which Perlman said the problem was that he played too many notes. I hardly see any calming moment in his sym 9 LP. No moment for him to take a little rest, no moment for the audience to take a rest as well. That's the problem I see.

With Javi his program is ambitious and I do wonder could he pull it off. But technically he only had quite a bad skate at SC. He did a decent job at CoR and GPF even though it didn't look very entertaining. And his PCS won't go up for that.

 

[Alba]

Lol. I think it's the choreographer who is Mozart. He/she decides or suggests the steps. Javi is the pianist.

Yeah, right. Keep playing the piano.

 

[Alba]

But to be frankly he can skate to Beethoven 3 or 6, I feel the same.

The 6th no, come on. The 6th is the Pastoral.

I can totally see him skate Eroica though, and I would love that choice.

 

[Meoima]

The 6th no, come on. The 6th is the Pastoral.
I can totally see him skate Eroica though, and I would love that choice.

Well... there're parts of Tatsuki's program that are very poetic and make me think of sym 6. I mean the step sequence and his move was designed beautifuly, the point is it's not as overwhelming as Ode to joy. If this piece were used for synchronized skating it would make more sense. More people, the merrier. That's sym 9 for you.

When I first saw his Lp at SA, I posted it to my friends facebook, don't know if you remember them. One is a Russian fan, one is Mao's fan and the last is Yuna's. They all said "it's weird and some parts have little connection to the music." It's not just me.

And yes I agree sym 3 is more suitable for his current choreography. At least sym 3 is a heroic symphony about an individual. Tatsuki might suit that role better.

 

[salchowx4]

This discussion reminds me of a scene in the movie Amadeus.

Emperor Joseph II: My dear young man, don't take it too hard. Your work is ingenious. It's quality work. And there are simply too many notes, that's all. Just cut a few and it will be perfect.

Mozart: Which few did you have in mind, Majesty?

I think that would apply if the choreographer had freedom, but Javier's program is what it is because of a desire to get a high TR mark. I think it's fair to criticize these busy programs (that many skaters have) that are obviously so full because they're trying to get more points rather than for artistic reasons. I'd criticize a composition that had tons of extra notes that didn't help the music, too.

BTW, one can both recognize that it is necessary for them to do this under the current judging system and still hate it at the same time.

 

[DonneeDarko]

I think that would apply if the choreographer had freedom, but Javier's program is what it is because of a desire to get a high TR mark. I think it's fair to criticize these busy programs (that many skaters have) that are obviously so full because they're trying to get more points rather than for artistic reasons. I'd criticize a composition that had tons of extra notes that didn't help the music, too.

BTW, one can both recognize that it is necessary for them to do this under the current judging system and still hate it at the same time.

I agree completely!! Some choreographers - or choreographer/skater combinations - are better than others at incorporating all the elements smoothly. Some are masterpieces and a joy to watch. I don't know who choreographed Jeremy Abbot's SP this season, but it is wonderful. And Jeffrey Buttle's choreography for Yuzuru's SP both last year and this are brilliant.

 

[Blades of Passion]

LOL @ Javier Fernandez being called the Mozart of FS.

Stretch, stretch, as far as you can!

 

[Ophelia]

I do wish Hanyu would work on his arm movements. For long portions of the program he looked like he was flailing his arms about.

 

[shiroKJ]

I do wish Hanyu would work on his arm movements. For long portions of the program he looked like he was flailing his arms about.

It was a lot more polished during rehearsals. Like I said, this was a technical skate. He was very focused on landing as many jumps as he can. Even his spins looked a bit off from his usual quality. I like this program more, but there was more emotions in his R&J2.0. I hope he'll feel 100% and to get it all together for WC's :yes:

 

[matmuh]

I agree completely!! Some choreographers - or choreographer/skater combinations - are better than others at incorporating all the elements smoothly. Some are masterpieces and a joy to watch. I don't know who choreographed Jeremy Abbot's SP this season, but it is wonderful. And Jeffrey Buttle's choreography for Yuzuru's SP both last year and this are brilliant.

i think it was Jeremy's and Yuka's colloboration, and i agree about jeff- yuzu, they are like dream when they work together, they seem to understand eachother and know what they want

 

[DonneeDarko]

LOL @ Javier Fernandez being called the Mozart of FS.

Stretch, stretch, as far as you can!

Actually, the analogy is with the choreographer not the skater.. Some choreographers and choreographer/skater teams manage to include all the elements and create masterpieces. No one complains those programs have "too many notes".

 

[Meoima]

According to Rosewood from FSU, Yuzuru's LP at GPF was a simplified version, no 4T2T in the second half and less transitions as well, he changed the entrance to some jump passes to make it easier as he has not recovered fully yet:

Yuzuru's original jump layouts were insane, and original transitions into jumps were greater as well. Since he collided in CoC, Yuzuru's team chose 'plan B' which is to do quads only in the first half of both programs. The 4T in short and 4T-2T in long were originally planned in the second half. (Plan A was withdraw from NHK.) After NHK Yuzuru simplified some of the entrances into jumps by himself for GP final. And he'll skate the programs with the current layouts in Nats too. Hopefully he'll have at least one chance to challenge the original layouts in this season.

It seems my guess is right. I had the feeling the level of difficulty was reduced significantly. So the plan B is not just less one quad, but less transitions as well.

 

[Alba]

I think that would apply if the choreographer had freedom, but Javier's program is what it is because of a desire to get a high TR mark. I think it's fair to criticize these busy programs (that many skaters have) that are obviously so full because they're trying to get more points rather than for artistic reasons. I'd criticize a composition that had tons of extra notes that didn't help the music, too.
BTW, one can both recognize that it is necessary for them to do this under the current judging system and still hate it at the same time

That was exactly my point. Besides, this program looks more busy thn Chan's programs. But maybe that's my impression since Chan is much better than him in terms of SS, therefore he might look more effortless.
The thing though is that Javi is not getting 9s for his transitions either. He got 8.21 in SC not even a 9 in protocols, 8.61 in CoR only one judge gave him a 9, and 8.46 at GPF with 3 judges giving him 9s.

And this leads me to a question. Do they judge transition based on how many they have in a program, how well you execute them? How does this work? I always wondered about this.

At least sym 3 is a heroic symphony about an individual.

Not exactly. Beethoven designed the piece as a memorial to the heroic achievements of Napoleon who he hoped would go on to inspire Europe to a humanist, libertarian, egalitarian revolution. So, I would say the communicative power of Eroica is more about that, not an individual. It was a message of change, to inspire audiences to consider a new world-view.