That's really interesting. Liza should definitely get better PCS than Kovtun
hahah riiiiight?
2014-2015 GPF Mens Short Program 12/12
- Thread starter dorispulaski
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hahah riiiiight?
I don't like Kovtun much at all and if I never hear Bolero again I could die happy, but I agree with your assessment of him here compared to Voronov. Sergei's program just... isn't very good, frankly.
Agree. Oh well, what to expect in this sport. lol
Overscoring Hanyu on GOE ?
I think he was even underscored on his quad. That was just as amazing quality on quad as in olympics. His 3A also deserves the highest GOEs. Add to that 2nd half and you have some points.
And also it's likely to get higher GOE on good quad, than on good lutz, so here is also diffrence from GOEs
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- Nov 29, 2013
That's what I'm talking about: only 2 points more in base value, but 6 points more in total TES. That means 4 points difference of GOE. And this's the difference that I wish to be explained. By now, I've only one explanations: Hanyu was significantly overscored.
It is indeed silly that Hanyu got -2's for his combo, while Machida got -3's. That being said, doing the math, had Hanyu gotten all -3's and Machida all -2's, Hanyu's score would have been 93.88, and Machida's would have been 87.96. Not that much of a difference, and Hanyu would have still had the highest SP score this season, and I believe the highest SP TES. Had they gotten the same PCS ('cause people like to complain about PCS), using Machida's PCS Hanyu would have gotten 92.41. Had Hanyu gotten a further -1 PCS deduction because he fell (personally, I think he already got the PCS fall deduction, he prob would have been getting 44+ or maybe even pushing 45 if he hadn't fallen) he would still be firmly in the lead.
The interesting thing about all of this is that all -3's for a lutz combo gets -2.1 in GOE whereas a step out for a quad gets -2 GOE. Because the lutz combo was in the second half, he gets a 1.01 bonus regardless of how he preformed the jump. In short, mathematically, the difference in extra points between a lutz in the second half fall and a quad step out, including the -1 deduction is a whopping... 0.09 points.
Mathematically, the scores make sense to me other than the lutz and quad goe for the top two (which would have only closed the gap by 0.34). I would have had Hanyu at about 92-93, but I am of the mind that if a SP score is within +3 or -3 points to what I would have had, I'm content with it. I guess I'm just not really sure what the big fuss is about a program with a fall leading, or scoring so high if it makes sense per the rules.
The interesting thing about all of this is that all -3's for a lutz combo gets -2.1 in GOE whereas a step out for a quad gets -2 GOE. Because the lutz combo was in the second half, he gets a 1.01 bonus regardless of how he preformed the jump. In short, mathematically, the difference in extra points between a lutz in the second half fall and a quad step out, including the -1 deduction is a whopping... 0.09 points.
Mathematically, the scores make sense to me other than the lutz and quad goe for the top two (which would have only closed the gap by 0.34). I would have had Hanyu at about 92-93, but I am of the mind that if a SP score is within +3 or -3 points to what I would have had, I'm content with it. I guess I'm just not really sure what the big fuss is about a program with a fall leading, or scoring so high if it makes sense per the rules.
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- Dec 29, 2011
Uhm... but that is actually happening, you know? There already are cases for skaters receiving lower GOE because of questionable rotation, no matter what the tech caller thought. And in Tatsukis case, it was actually very obvious.
@samson
While I agree with some of your criticism for Voronov (he wasn't all that smooth, and his program was a bit basic), I don't see how Kovtun did any better. Maybe a bit more in SS, but he's not more impressive than Voronov otherwise. His program is boring and goes nowhere. At least Voronov was more entertaining and clean, which should count for something in P/E and INT.
And post-factoring, Kovtun has higher PCS than Yulia and Liza? Riot! Riot!
While I agree with some of your criticism for Voronov (he wasn't all that smooth, and his program was a bit basic), I don't see how Kovtun did any better. Maybe a bit more in SS, but he's not more impressive than Voronov otherwise. His program is boring and goes nowhere. At least Voronov was more entertaining and clean, which should count for something in P/E and INT.
And post-factoring, Kovtun has higher PCS than Yulia and Liza? Riot! Riot!
:thumbsup:
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- Jan 25, 2013
IMO, Hanyu's PCS should have been about 42 points. Machida's PCS should have been a bit lower than that (maybe 41.5-ish), but higher GOE on his quad combo. Voronov/Kovtun/Mura had about the right PCS. Fernandez' PCS I would have had a bit lower, but still clearing 40.
Not to bring up Besseghier, but it's insane that his clean SP with a quad-triple scored less than Javier's disastrous SP here, and 16 points less than Hanyu's SP with a fall. The scoring this year is just absolutely insane comparing clean skates from second-tier skaters to flawed skates from first-rate skaters.
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- Jan 10, 2014
I agree.
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- Feb 27, 2012
I was there and Machida was definitely underscored. There is no way Kovtun should be a breadth within Machida's range when Kovtun's jumps had shaky landings and his skating skills, program choreography, and general performance ability were definitely lesser to Machida's.
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- Apr 15, 2013
Hanyu's pcs are ok. And Parisienne Walkaways >>>>> Chopin if you ask me.
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- Dec 29, 2011
Well, the scoresheet is explaining that.
+1.17 on the StSq alone. Biggest difference is the level. I'm not enough of an expert to say if Tatsuki getting a Lv 3 is correct, but that's the tech callers job. The judges are only handing out GOE, and those were very similar between Yuzu and Tatsu - both had mainly 2's, Yuzu had one +3 more while Tatsu had a 0 and +1 each. The main difference is that because of the higher level, Yuzu's GOE have a higher factor.
12.42 GOE on spins vs. 11.36 for Tatsu. So another 1.06 points here. And Yuzu is the better spinner - and again: the main difference is in the levels. Yuzu had all level 4, Tatsu had 2 level 3's. The GOE again is very similar. (Which IMO, is even wrong. I'd argue Yuzu should get better GOE on spins than Tatsuki...).
Even more so: Yuzu got 1,71 point more on the 3A alone. Given his insanely difficult entry, and that this jump pretty much hits every bullet point for GOE, it makes sense.
So nearly 4 points more Yuzu has over Tatsuki, IMO, all well deserved.
(Side note: this does NOT mean that I like the current rules about the scoring of falls. Not at all. There should be a way bigger penalty. But the way the current system works these points above have zero to do with the fall on the combo.)
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- Jan 25, 2013
IMO 45 was too much last year (as was Chan's PCS of 44 something). I'd have had it at 43.5-44. And thus, this performance would be 41.5-42 with the fall.
Machida was actually a bit overscored I found. I've have had him around 41 points. I think Machida getting 87 points for that performance was perfectly fine and I would not have had him any higher. It's Hanyu who should have been around 91.
Like, seriously people, we're talking about a score of 90 here. Since when do flawed performances with falls deserve more than 90-ish points? Whether it's Chan or Hanyu or whoever, this simply is unacceptable.
Other skaters are busting a gut and doing clean skates, including ones with 4-3 combos, in an effort to simply break 90, only to lose to guys with falls/major errors!
A guy getting mid-90's with a fall is absolutely appalling, I don't care who it is.
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I think it's also worth remembering which elements the mistakes were on and how the factoring of the GOE comes into play. Yuzu got penalized way less for his combo than Machida because a triple/triple is only facotred by .7 but a quad/triple is factored by 1.00. Had Hanyu's combo been factored like Machida's he would have lost an extra .81 in GOE. On the other jumps Machida doesn't really have transitions going in or out in the way Hanyu does. Hanyu is really maximizing the plus goe points made available to him in a way Machida doesn't yet do.
As far as spin GOE goes that probably comes down to preference, but also a level four step sequence is factored at a .7 and a level three only gets a .5 factor. That can be a very handy way to rack up more points against a competitor. In this case if they had both been factored at .5 Hanyu would have made .14 points over Machida but hitting level four gave him a .57 edge.
It's exhausting I know, but all these little things slowly add up. When you have the natural gifts of someone like Hanyu, the genius of Jeffrey Buttle and the knowledge of Brian Orser that's a very tough team to beat in this IJS world.
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- Nov 27, 2014
I don't want to comment on over scoring/underscoring but I just want to say that yuzu and tatsuki look super graceful on the ice tonight, IMHO. Great jobs boys, great jobs
was very sad to see Javi under so much pressure. When he finished, the look on his face was sad to see...he doesn't have much experience in dealing with such pressure and high expectations, unlike the Japanese skaters...he said he was going to have a drink with yuzu after the competition, but now I don't know whether he will really have fun afterwards...
was very sad to see Javi under so much pressure. When he finished, the look on his face was sad to see...he doesn't have much experience in dealing with such pressure and high expectations, unlike the Japanese skaters...he said he was going to have a drink with yuzu after the competition, but now I don't know whether he will really have fun afterwards...I have been a long time lurker of this forum, and this will be my first post. CSG, I think you are very knowledgeable about this sport, however if the tech panel does not call <, judges still have the ability to decrease the GOE by -1. This information can be found in IV. Updated Guidelines in establishing GOE for errors in Short Program and Free Skating of ISU communications 1861.
Thus, for Tatsuki's combo, the judges marks of -3 can be justified as such: -1 if they think the only the second jump was under, -2 if they think BOTH parts of the combo were under. Then, together with the turnout (another -2) he is at -4 in terms of GOE deductions. Then the judges factor in the positives (such as height, flow, etc.). He usually gets plus +1 and +2 for quality when he does it great. All together, IF the judges think both parts were a bit under-rotated, they can give a range -2 to -3 for this element. Now, there were also judges who did not think the jump was under-rotated, and their GOEs would be higher.
Those are the rules out of the way. Do I agree that judges and tech panel can have different interpretations for whether or not there should be <? That's another debate for another day. However, as it stands with the current guidelines to marking GOE, the judges were well in their capacity to give a -3 to Tatsuki's combo.
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