2014-2015 GPF Mens Short Program 12/12

[yyyskate]

:agree: although I think Denis has a slight edge over Yuzu in that department.

I liked that yuzu let the flow out of 4T alone lead into the steps, where he didn't force but let them slow down to die. Same with the 3a. He tried to connect the whole program like a continuous ribbon. But I see some parts where the connection is quite weak. He doesn't seem to handle the emptiness in between as masterfully as Chan does. I admire yuzu not to try to fake, fill, or overreach the gap though. I think he will learn to catch up Chan as he ages, or become something different than Chan.

:yes:

 

[yyyskate]

watched Yuzuru's SP HD again, this performance is special, it has moments and intangibles, hard to repeat, even Yuzuru cleaned this SP in the future...

 

[Mathman]

Thanks for the eloquent and thoughtful reply, WYW.

 

[matmuh]

I think that both recreation and entertainment are equally important in the grand scheme of things. There are tens of thousands of skaters learning from thousands of coaches. A few of these skaters will become world class and compete at the elite level. These elite skaters will inspire the children, parents, family etc. to join the sport, and this will increase the amount of skaters and thus the coaches who have jobs. With more skaters, there is a greater pool of talent, and we see the elite level of skating increase-> then the cycle continues and the sport grows. I believe both the recreation and entertainment make up the skating "ecosystem".

More specifically about the point system; there is no reason that the system has be for one or the other. For the recreation side, the system works pretty well (as you can imagine trying to rank 30 skaters). For the elite/entertainment side of the sport, I still think the point system is an improvement. However, we still hear things like: Hanyu fell once and Voronov went clean, WTH is with the gap? When 1 fall occurs, people care less about the fact that Hanyu had: much better positions in spins, faster spins, many transitions, more difficult transitions, literally twice as fast in the step sequence, faster throughout with less crosscuts and the list goes on (everything that COP wants to award). Quite literally, every aspect of skating of Hanyu was miles ahead of Voronov that night with the exception of the fall, and it was only further contrasted by Voronov skating directly after him. Without jumps, Hanyu is in another league or (even two) compared to Voronov.

But are these people who emphasize the fall wrong? Hanyu (like Chan, Fernandez etc.) will always have the better spins, transitions, footwork, speed than everyone else. Should they always have such an advantage over other skaters? The answer will greatly vary depending on the person- it is impossible to make everyone happy. It is up to the ISU to fine-tune the system to maximize the agreement among the public and system/judges- a difficult endeavour, as you can imagine, considering the variety of opinions out there.

great explanation, agree 100%

 

[Rissa]

I think that's where there is a disconnect between the skating cognoscenti and the potential fans that we would like to attract.

When people see a bad performance which nevertheless earns a lot of points they shrug and switch over to auto racing on the other channel.

I watched once again whole competition yesterday on polish eurosport and guys said the same, the performance was just out of this world and other couldn't match that.

So doesn't a halfway decent commentator mitigate the disconnect? I know that when I hear commentators saying "Oh that was a lovely spin... Amazing speed... An incredibly difficult entry... Lovely edge coming out, that's going to rack him up some serious points... Even with that fall, he should have earned enough to get him far ahead..." it's not just going over my head. Perhaps the situation is not as dramatic as it seems.

Well, unless people are watching live, that is...

 

[Mathman]

So doesn't a halfway decent commentator mitigate the disconnect? I know that when I hear commentators saying "Oh that was a lovely spin... Amazing speed... An incredibly difficult entry... Lovely edge coming out, that's going to rack him up some serious points... Even with that fall, he should have earned enough to get him far ahead..." it's not just going over my head.

I don't know. Good commentary can't hurt.

Still, the most important thing is for the audience to commit to an emotional investment in the performance. When a skater breaks the spell by making huge flubs it is hard to reel the viewers back in no matter how much the commentator praises the depth of his edges. (Except for a Paul Wylie spread eagle where the edge is what draws in the viewer. )

I remember the first time I saw Patrick Chan skate. This was his Four Seasons at Canadian Nationals when he was 17. No quad, but I never saw anyone who could move his feet on ice like that (except Kurt Browning as aa pro). I don't know if it would have been better if the commentator had named each Choctaw or called our attention to this feature of the performance and that. Maybe -- but, "Look at him go!" was enough for me. :yes:

 

[wordsworthgirl]

wordsworthgirl wow are you me that is practically everything that I thought about while watching their performances :agree:

Leolion11 So glad I could put your reaction in words!

Happy to find a like-minded friend on here!

 

[wordsworthgirl]

Ditto thrice.

Hanyu deserve to lead him substantially in PCS/GOEs/TES (His 3A deserve his own category bonuses). I'd put Machida's PCS at least 1 or 2 points behind Hanyu even with a fall since it does not take away from the rest of the performance. I do think they have more to improvement before getting to Patrick Chan SS level. I have expressed my early season impression of Hanyu's Sp (like Denis' s SP) is like they are trying to emulate Patrick Chan type of classic men skating last season.... I haven't changed my mind. Today Hanyu's performance is head and shoulders above the rest of the field. He also have the intangibles which other men lacks, and this is even more evident without Patrick on the scene showing him in off in skating skills and a more fully realised program. He skated like a champion even with a fall. 94 may be over marked, but this is a sport that tends to reward for being the best in the world, at the biggest events, especially if you are perceived to be head of the pack already. He is the reigning OGM and WC, so he got his bonus for a great comeback consider early season disaster.

Machida is a bit like Miyahara for me. Although got the skills but lacks the wow and it factor. It is studious skating, over rehearsed, over practised, put upon expressions and lack in authenticity, freedom, unique perspective, letting things go and 'feel' and 'emote' which is important in art. The fact he treat his ladies in lavender / firebird / east of eden / symphony 9th within more or less similar range of expressions and intensity shows thorough lack in understand, processing, interpreting and expressing an original take. Everything else just becomes an act of some idea of 'artist' without any of the processes to become an artist.

and now I ditto you! thanks for liking my thoughts- I really like yours!

 

[treeloving]

oof



Side note: I sometimes enjoy refactoring PCS to compare the men and ladies just to see where everyone stacks up. I'll factor the men by .8... here's what you get:

Hanyu 35.18
Machida 34
Fernandez 32.77
Kovtun 32.06
Lipnitskaia 31.66
Tukt 31.63
Radianova 31.26
Voronov 30.86
Mura 30.70
Wagner 30.40
Pogo 30.00
Hongo 27.14

It's kind of pointless I know but still fun for me to do and kind of puts an interesting perspective on how the internationals judges might view the level of skating in each discipline.

Thank you for this, and at Kovtun's higher pcs than all ladies, quad effect is so true.

I still think a fall should be more punished, but if Yuzuru got 46 for his last year sp, this one really deserve higher, just saying.

 

[Mathman]

Thank you for this, and at Kovtun's higher pcs than all ladies, quad effect is so true.

But then again, it might be true that the men skate faster than the ladies, that they do a greater variety of transitions, that they are more successful at engaging the audience, etc.