2014 Nebelhorn Trophy

[Eclair]

I enjoyed Hino's first half of his program - he has a calm presence and an eye for details. Too bad about the 2 falls. Looking forward to seeing him skating this program again

 

[StitchMonkey]

The biggest problem I had with Jason's program was the lack of speed, which I hope builds as he trains these programs more throughout the year. The one thing we can say is that Jason is a hard worker and has a good coach who gets him ready the right way for the big competitions. Unless he's nervous because the experience is new (Olympics) or the program is new (beginning of the season), he's VERY dependable that the next time WILL be better than the last time.

If he has a quad or doesn't, I honestly don't care. He's enjoyable to watch regardless. I hope he's doing it regularly in practice, and puts it in when he feels ready. Again, I know it's hard to draw conclusions about the quad based on his progress with the 3A, but if we can, it's that he can eventually get there (unless the quad is out of his reach.)

He will need a quad to compete for a world medal, but if he does his programs pristine, he's definitely final flight material.

He did look cautious on this skate. And when it was over he looked as relived as a teenager holding a negative home pregnancy tests. I agree it will improve as he gets more comfortable with it. This was his first time competing in anything other than summer comps since the Olympics, I think he was happy to get it done cleanly, now he can breathe. Not a disappointment but room for improvement.

And he claims to be practicing it. Kori said he is and that the percentage of landed ones are pretty good, just still not worth trying it yet in the most recent interview. And there footage of him doing one with a hand down on youtube if you have not seen it. So he does seem to be practicing it regularly. Right now, it is sorta a risk reward situation for him, and I am not sure the reward is really worth it, at least right now. And frankly I think it is sad that the obsession with quads has resulted in an almost dismissal of triples of having any value or merit. Geez the way some people talk you would think he is not doing any jumps!

 

[sequinsgalore]

Ivan RIGHINI (ITA)

Black/red "leather" jacket, gloves, black pants

Music: Thriller by Michael Jackson; Billie Jean by Michael Jackson

3A - fall
3F
3Lz+3T - 'Rippon on lutz
FSSp
StSq - small stumble
CCoSp3p

SP: 29.93/33.25-1.00 = 62.18, 8th (out of 14)

 

[Poice]

Ivan! I like the program and his costume is great. (but I love these two Jackson's songs so I'm a little bit biased...) Too bad about 3A ;/

 

[Eclair]

terrible choreo and presentation by ivan, I'm sorry but he is capable of doing better

 

[zschultz1986]

He did look cautious on this skate. And when it was over he looked as relived as a teenager holding a negative home pregnancy tests. I agree it will improve as he gets more comfortable with it. This was his first time competing in anything other than summer comps since the Olympics, I think he was happy to get it done cleanly, now he can breathe. Not a disappointment but room for improvement.

And he claims to be practicing it. Kori said he is and that the percentage of landed ones are pretty good, just still not worth trying it yet in the most recent interview. And there footage of him doing one with a hand down on youtube if you have not seen it. So he does seem to be practicing it regularly. Right now, it is sorta a risk reward situation for him, and I am not sure the reward is really worth it, at least right now. And frankly I think it is sad that the obsession with quads has resulted in an almost dismissal of triples of having any value or merit. Geez the way some people talk you would think he is not doing any jumps!

Not sure who you're talking about but I didn't say it. I love everything he does, he does great entrances into lots of his triples, and his overall package is VERY enjoyable. I'm just pointing out that a Quad is necessary to compete at the podium level of Worlds Competition. I only say this BECAUSE he has everything else a world champion skater needs, besides a consistent competition quad.

 

[MasterB]

I disagree. Hanyu and Fernandez are going to get all the PCS Jason does. Others are going to have enough PCS to where their technical elements will give them more points than Jason in total.

You may be right that nothing is in the rule book saying you NEED a quad, but let's stop feigning ignorance: A Quad is necessary with this field. A Quad will most certainly be necessary for future fields, too. Saying he doesn't need it to win a world medal is just not supported by the facts. Buttle and Lysacek were oddities of the system, and Weir only ever won one medal without a quad, and that was the down year in 08 when Buttle won (rightfully). You'll also remember that they only ever WON worlds when others were sloppy, and their Quadless programs were PRISTINE

Lysacek nearly lost in Vancouver to a Plushenko who could jump and not much else.

Edit: Also Chan never needed one? WHAT? He didn't start winning UNTIL his Quad was consistent enough. Also, that pre-2010 system didn't value Quads as high as they do now. Your assertion that Quads aren't necessary is wrong.

Very good points.

 

[ice coverage]

Lynn Rutherford's reporting on the SD deductions at Nebelhorn (emphasis added):

Eight of the 11 couples received a one-point deduction for "violation of choreography restrictions." When asked about it, none of the top teams could explain why the deduction was taken. Evidently, they had violated Rule 709 and performed an incorrect pattern, separation or stop, or touched the ice with a hand. The event's technical controller, Michela Cesaro, a former Italian ice dance competitor, will give an explanation for this deduction after the free dance.
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2014/09/25/96339046​

ETA, correction:

The author of the IN article is Klaus-Reinhold Kany, not Rutherford. Apologies for my error.​

Ladies SP starting order has been posted:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/nt2014/SEG003.HTM​

 

[zschultz1986]

Lynn Rutherford's reporting on the SD deductions at Nebelhorn (emphasis added):

Eight of the 11 couples received a one-point deduction for "violation of choreography restrictions." When asked about it, none of the top teams could explain why the deduction was taken. Evidently, they had violated Rule 709 and performed an incorrect pattern, separation or stop, or touched the ice with a hand. The event's technical controller, Michela Cesaro, a former Italian ice dance competitor, will give an explanation for this deduction after the free dance.
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2014/09/25/96339046​

Ladies SP starting order has been posted:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/nt2014/SEG003.HTM​

LoL, I hope this isn't like all those "deductions" on dance teams at Cup of Russia last year.

 

[gmyers]

I disagree. Hanyu and Fernandez are going to get all the PCS Jason does. Others are going to have enough PCS to where their technical elements will give them more points than Jason in total.

You may be right that nothing is in the rule book saying you NEED a quad, but let's stop feigning ignorance: A Quad is necessary with this field. A Quad will most certainly be necessary for future fields, too. Saying he doesn't need it to win a world medal is just not supported by the facts. Buttle and Lysacek were oddities of the system, and Weir only ever won one medal without a quad, and that was the down year in 08 when Buttle won (rightfully). You'll also remember that they only ever WON worlds when others were sloppy, and their Quadless programs were PRISTINE

Lysacek nearly lost in Vancouver to a Plushenko who could jump and not much else.

Edit: Also Chan never needed one? WHAT? He didn't start winning UNTIL his Quad was consistent enough. Also, that pre-2010 system didn't value Quads as high as they do now. Your assertion that Quads aren't necessary is wrong.

No Chan did not need a quad. If his triple axels were better he absolutely would never had needed one. Doesn't look like has Brown chan level trouble with 3a. Fernandez has major stamina problems and hanyu may be the only reason brown may ever add a quad when he goes to worlds. But a quad isn't easy. Hanyu makes a lot of mistakes wih them and like has been said going smaller and cleaner can win. I am not saying brown winning worlds would be a lanslide! It could be a lysacek style victory over plushenko. Lysacek won proving quads were meaningless in skating.

 

[LRK]

He did look cautious on this skate. And when it was over he looked as relived as a teenager holding a negative home pregnancy tests. I agree it will improve as he gets more comfortable with it. This was his first time competing in anything other than summer comps since the Olympics, I think he was happy to get it done cleanly, now he can breathe. Not a disappointment but room for improvement.

And he claims to be practicing it. Kori said he is and that the percentage of landed ones are pretty good, just still not worth trying it yet in the most recent interview. And there footage of him doing one with a hand down on youtube if you have not seen it. So he does seem to be practicing it regularly. Right now, it is sorta a risk reward situation for him, and I am not sure the reward is really worth it, at least right now. And frankly I think it is sad that the obsession with quads has resulted in an almost dismissal of triples of having any value or merit. Geez the way some people talk you would think he is not doing any jumps!

I think part of that is because the conversation often goes as if the only two options are "quad + fall" versus "no quad + clean" - when I've seen lots of people doing only triples fall as well... as for example in this very competition. The quad guys were not the only ones with mistakes.

 

[Tavi...]

For the love of QUAD

Jason still would lead if he had tried it and fallen, two-footed,or underrotate. To play it safe just doesn't do it for me.

I am a Fan, you are an athelete, give me what I want! I want a Quad.......................and I know Jason wants one too.

I would imagine that if he puts the quad in before he's ready, it could affect how well he is performing the other elements. In other words, the points he eould gain by doing an imperfect quad could be cancelled out by worse jumps, spins, etcetera.

 

[gmyers]

Well I don't know but I wonder if judges are willing to give out 90PCS for no quad in a long, though.

All the judges at US nationals didn't care. Sure it was US nationals but not one judge cared at all about Jason not doing a quad.

 

[ice coverage]

Nebelhorn Men's SP protocols:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/nt2014/NT2014_Men_SP_Scores.pdf​

 

[StitchMonkey]

Not sure who you're talking about but I didn't say it. I love everything he does, he does great entrances into lots of his triples, and his overall package is VERY enjoyable. I'm just pointing out that a Quad is necessary to compete at the podium level of Worlds Competition. I only say this BECAUSE he has everything else a world champion skater needs, besides a consistent competition quad.

I was agreeing with the room for improvement re speed, and just filling in you in on the practice. Was not sure you had seen the article when you said he should be practicing it.

As for needing a quad for a world medal. . . well this is not worlds, who the hell knows what the climate will be by then. While those that say a quad will needed are probably right, I would not be surprised if we do not see as many this year. Everything goes in phases, this is the first year of the new quad, some may play it safe for injury/ware and tare on the body, others may see the benefit of taking more of a Jason approach and working on other aspects. I don't think we will see as many quads this year at worlds, but I do think we will see enough that Jason would need a splat fest without it.

And the some people. . . are not just this board. . . just the overall attitude about he and the quad. . . I guess I don't know if I think no quad automatically equates to "bad jumper" and that is the feeling I seem to get from some people, like it is a black and white yes or no issue. It was not directed at you. . . more just lamenting why we can't just enjoy the jumps he does do. Some people talk about him almost like the jumps he does do are a weakness for him. It is just all very very odd. Im with you that I enjoy what he does and hope to continue to see him enjoy doing it.

 

[zschultz1986]

No Chan did not need a quad. If his triple axels were better he absolutely would never had needed one. Doesn't look like Brown chan level trouble with 3a. Fernandez has major stamina problems and hanyu may be the only reason brown may ever add a quad when he goes to worlds. But a quad isn't easy. Hanyu makes a lot of mistakes wih them and like has been said going smaller and cleaner can win. I am not saying brown winning worlds would be a lanslide! It could be a lysacek style victory over plushenko. Lysacek won proving quads were meaningless in skating.

If his Triple Axels were better his name wouldn't be Patrick Chan. Also, Jason's 3As are a tad tight, and on a bad day, UR (or at least look like it). Fernandez has major stamina issues because he tries THREE quads. There's people doing TWO in the SP alone.

You're putting words in my mouth. I'm only comparing what is known about the competitors at this point. Jason can do amazing, flawless programs, and I will clap and cheer to the high heavens, but until he has a quad, his only shot of ever winning is in the mold of Buttle/Lysacek, and that mold is very hard to follow. Maybe a bronze, if he's perfect.

Also, you're forgetting that Hanyu's OTHER jumps are better than Jason's. Fernandez's jumps are massive too. I'm only saying he needs the quad because it's the truth and because I want him to win a Worlds. It's going to be damn near impossible without one for the foreseeable future.

Again, the point value for quads had increased since 2010. It's a different system that gives lots of points to quads, and even more to those that are landed.

 

[ice coverage]

LoL, I hope this isn't like all those "deductions" on dance teams at Cup of Russia last year.

Oooops, I credited the wrong person for the reporting on the mystery of the SD deductions.
The author of the IN article is Klaus-Reinhold Kany, not Lynn Rutherford.
Will correct my post above.

 

[zschultz1986]

I was agreeing with the room for improvement re speed, and just filling in you in on the practice. Was not sure you had seen the article when you said he should be practicing it.

As for needing a quad for a world medal. . . well this is not worlds, who the hell knows what the climate will be by then. While those that say a quad will needed are probably right, I would not be surprised if we do not see as many this year. Everything goes in phases, this is the first year of the new quad, some may play it safe for injury/ware and tare on the body, others may see the benefit of taking more of a Jason approach and working on other aspects. I don't think we will see as many quads this year at worlds, but I do think we will see enough that Jason would need a splat fest without it.

And the some people. . . are not just this board. . . just the overall attitude about he and the quad. . . I guess I don't know if I think no quad automatically equates to "bad jumper" and that is the feeling I seem to get from some people, like it is a black and white yes or no issue. It was not directed at you. . . more just lamenting why we can't just enjoy the jumps he does do. Some people talk about him almost like the jumps he does do are a weakness for him. It is just all very very odd. Im with you that I enjoy what he does and hope to continue to see him enjoy doing it.

Not with me. He learns at his own pace. He's not Max, no one is trying to make him into Max. I'm just pointing out something that I see as a necessity to be at the top with the current field.

His jumps can be a tad smaller than others, but he makes up for it with interesting entrances and exits and positions in the jump. It's who he is. Can they get better? Sure. Will I enjoy him any less if they don't? Definitely not.

 

[gmyers]

I was agreeing with the room for improvement re speed, and just filling in you in on the practice. Was not sure you had seen the article when you said he should be practicing it.

As for needing a quad for a world medal. . . well this is not worlds, who the hell knows what the climate will be by then. While those that say a quad will needed are probably right, I would not be surprised if we do not see as many this year. Everything goes in phases, this is the first year of the new quad, some may play it safe for injury/ware and tare on the body, others may see the benefit of taking more of a Jason approach and working on other aspects. I don't think we will see as many quads this year at worlds, but I do think we will see enough that Jason would need a splat fest without it.

And the some people. . . are not just this board. . . just the overall attitude about he and the quad. . . I guess I don't know if I think no quad automatically equates to "bad jumper" and that is the feeling I seem to get from some people, like it is a black and white yes or no issue. It was not directed at you. . . more just lamenting why we can't just enjoy the jumps he does do. Some people talk about him almost like the jumps he does do are a weakness for him. It is just all very very odd. Im with you that I enjoy what he does and hope to continue to see him enjoy doing it.

These are very good points. The Chan Hanyu rivalry of both doing quads may have inflated the quad numbers. Fernandez vs hanyu or whatever may mean quads plummet. Even though ur plus fall meant zero points people still believed quads were mandatory to win in Vancouver. Everyone was saying after 2009 worlds quad was mandated in vancouver. Of course only one medalist did one. No one can ever say anything is necessary.

 

[snowflake]

He competed at 2013 Nationals and skated an absolutely brilliant long program to Eleanor Rigby that ended up 5th in the FS and brought him to 7th overall. He earned his first international medal not long after. But he injured his ankle very badly last season (torn ligaments? IIRC) and had to sit out the entire season.

Here's his Eleanor Rigby at Nationals:
http://youtu.be/Y-1AI1fXdiE

Thanks bronwyn, really good for him to be back in such a good shape shape then. Nice to have yet another US man to enjoy this season

hwell: now back to the Jason/quad-debate....