2014 Olympics Free Dance

[WeakAnkles]

It's called overkill. One post about all of D/W's terrible qualities got your point across. As I said before, it was to the point of ad nauseum.

Anyway, it's no skin off my back. My ealrier D&W sucks post was a joke anyway. I have to admit I can see why people like being a D&W hater, it was kind of fun hurling (satirical) insults at them.

From Jane Austen's Pride & Prejudice:

"It is such a spur to one's genius, such an opening for wit to have a dislike of that kind. One may be continually abusive without saying any thing just; but one cannot be always laughing at a man without now and then stumbling on something witty.''

Of course Elizabeth makes her point in two sentences, not 92 posts. Brevity is not only the soul of wit, but is usually greatly appreciated by others...

 

[bekalc]

Because it would have been V/M's turn, since they were left alone at nationals. Having your coach with you at nationals was probably more important than having your coach marching with you. They said it was two things 1. Not having their coach at nationals, and not having the march.

Probably if they had one or the other, that would have been quelled.

 

[dorispulaski]

I didn't think V&M marched either. Both teams had to skate the FD the next day, didn't they?

Canton arrangements worked as long as Igor & Marina were together. One top level coach could go with one time, and the other with the other. Igor went with D&W to US Nationals, and marched with the US in 2010, Marina marched with Canada, and went to Canadians with V&M. Without Igor, the school was no longer in balance.

 

[bekalc]

I didn't think V&M marched either. Both teams had to skate the FD the next day, didn't they?

Canton arrangements worked as long as Igor & Marina were together. One top level coach could go with one time, and the other with the other. Igor went with D&W to US Nationals, and marched with the US in 2010, Marina marched with Canada, and went to Canadians with V&M. Without Igor, the school was no longer in balance.

No it wasn't. And I think not having Igor there hurt V/M too. Its totally possible that the issue wasn't Marina favoring D/W but rather that they really needed someone like Igor. They lost everything to D/W, last year, and that should have been a wake up call that something just wasn't working....

 

[ice coverage]

Thank you, PJ Kwong:

... What I struggle with are the attacks against Davis and White’s win and the lack of respect for the amount of work it has taken them to get to this point. ...

http://olympics.cbc.ca/blogs/author...yl-davis-charlie-white-show-lack-respect.html

Thx for the link, Mrs. P. Just want to make note for others that Kwong is not attributing attacks or lack of respect to Virtue/Moir.

... To be fair, if Marina marched last time with the Canadians, why would she march again with them? Why should not D/W get their coach to march this time? ...

Sorry, my head is spinning from two threads discussing the same topic. But as I said either in this one or the other one:

Davis/White did get to march with their coach in 2010 -- their coach being Shpilband. They did not get to march with their coach Zoueva. And in 2010, Virtue/Moir did not get to march with their coach Shpilband, but they did get to march with their coach Zoueva. So what would or would not have been "fair" in 2014 is a matter of opinion.​

Forgive me for a neophyte question but...isn’t there a sort of unwritten rule that once you win gold in the Olympics in ice dance, you move on and allow the other skaters to move up a placement? I can see how this is necessary in ice dancing because if you win the Olympics and stay in 4 more years, then you’re creating a “log jam” [assuming that all skaters continue at the same level of skating].

So what was the reason for V/M to stay on for another Olympics? Because I can see how the judges might have wanted to penalize them for that. ...

Someone already answered that Virtue/Moir are the youngest Olympic ice dance champions.
Another reason, IMO, that they did not retire after the 2009-2010 season: They did not win their first World title until 2010, and I think that they felt capable of more than one. (And they were. )

... Canton arrangements worked as long as Igor & Marina were together. One top level coach could go with one time, and the other with the other. Igor went with D&W to US Nationals, and marched with the US in 2010, Marina marched with Canada, and went to Canadians with V&M. Without Igor, the school was no longer in balance.

Strongly agree.
I would add that Zoueva is the one who pushed Shpilband out of Canton. Because of arrogance or lack of foresight or both, I think she did not anticipate that coaching the world's top two dance couples singlehandedly would be such a delicate responsibility.

I am just reading this now, so please forgive me if this has already been answered, but I would think that a lot of their fees depend on what their agents 'barter' for them. Are they with the same agency? I'm not sure exactly how it works for sports, and it would be wonderful if they were paid equal, but I am assuming that their individual agents at their respective agencies would work it out for them with the companies/tours and a lot of that depends on how much they are in demand and how much of a budget the show/tour has.

I hear you about agents ... but I would hope that if Virtue/Moir and Davis/White are skating in the same show, the management of the show would feel morally obligated to keep their fees as close as possible. Both couples have been world champions and Olympic medalists, and I think agents for both couples could rightfully claim the same ballpark level of subjective popularity.
I do have some professional knowledge of this type of situation (although unrelated to sports) -- and suffice it to say that it really is not in the long-term interest of the show executives to not be straight shooters in this regard.

Or maybe the Russians just didn't enjoy D/W's skate as much as V/M and I/K.

Why am I not surprised that you posted that?

Uhm because you read his 88 OTHER "I hate Marlie" posts?

It's called overkill. One post about all of D/W's terrible qualities got your point across. As I said before, it was to the point of ad nauseum. ....

Now then ... Mrs. P, you know I have all the respect and affection in the world for you. But I gotta say something here.

I am aware that MattK clearly supports Virtue/Moir (as do I ). But I don't think he ever said, "I hate D/W."

And I do not think his posts have been any more repetitive than those of at least one or two D/W fans who have posted ad nauseam (also in more than one thread) not only to profess their love for D/W but also to whine [yes, I said it] that some people have the nerve to disagree with their love. If the volume of their posts is tolerable, I do not understand why the volume of MattK's is not.

And BTW, it is not MattK's fault -- nor anyone else's -- that zillions of overlapping threads are discussing ice dance, Davis/White, and Virtue/Moir.

Didn't Maina get Derick Hough of Dancing with the Stars to choreograph Meryl and Charlie's dance. He announced this on Access Hollywood tonight.

No big whoop, but Hough's role as Davis/White's choreographer was well-publicized much earlier in the season.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And ... now to look at the other thread ...

 

[CocoChanel]

A coach should either pick no one or take turns. Here, it seems like she took turns, which is fine. If she picked V/M, that would be clear favoritism bc she marched last time w them.

It might have been special for her to march in the ceremony in her own country. She deserved that right and since she marched with both countries over 2 Olympics, she is not showing she favors one over the other.

The Shibs also count in this too, they were the team most on the bubble for the Olympics so they needed the coach most at their own nationals. V/m and d/w were locks virtually for the Olympic team and for their respective national championships. The Shibs are paying good money, they deserve their coach too.

Yes, but I assume that ALL those teams are paying good money. If you're paying money for a coach to be with you, coach you, and support you, then you shouldn't need to "share" that coach's attention to the point where that coach shows up at your rival's national championships and marches in your rivals' country ceremony. Maybe this is what I don't understand about the whole situation. No matter which team you are, if you're paying money out of your own pocket [or your sport federation's pocket], then you're paying for that coach's time and unless the rival team is willing to split the cost, I don't see why you should have to settle for less time with that coach.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more idiotic it was for V/M to stick with Marina. Surely there are other coaches they could have gone to???

 

[dorispulaski]

AFAIR, it wasn't Marina who went to Derek Hough, Meryl & Charlie did. The connection was made through a mutual friend (whop was identified by a TV Guide interview as Kristi Yamaguchi)

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/enterta...gh-makes-olympic-history-with-us-ice-dancers/

 

[WeakAnkles]

Yes, but I assume that ALL those teams are paying good money. If you're paying money for a coach to be with you, coach you, and support you, then you shouldn't need to "share" that coach's attention to the point where that coach shows up at your rival's national championships and marches in your rivals' country ceremony. Maybe this is what I don't understand about the whole situation. No matter which team you are, if you're paying money out of your own pocket [or your sport federation's pocket], then you're paying for that coach's time and unless the rival team is willing to split the cost, I don't see why you should have to settle for less time with that coach.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more idiotic it was for V/M to stick with Marina. Surely there are other coaches they could have gone to???

But wasn't Marlie ALSO paying coaching fees to Zoueva as well?

And why isn't anyone raking Brian Orser over the coals for Conflict of Interest and Marching With The Wrong Team? Really, this is just a tempest in a very very small teapot.

 

[Olenka1213]

Sorry excuse. Don't care who you are rooting for, deliberately sitting on your hands is not good sportsmanship. Every skater deserved applause for their effort.

Every skater DID get some applause. The best got more than others, and to me it's just natural.

 

[Olenka1213]

Or maybe the Russians just didn't enjoy D/W's skate as much as V/M and I/K.

My point exactly! I heard jokes (not after D/W, but after the Shibutani's relatively low scores) like "that's payback for what happened in Russia-USA hockey match", but those were nothing but jokes, it's not like the Russians are actually rooting against USA wherever possible. Abbot and Brown got great reception at Men's FS.

 

[chloepoco]

Yes, but I assume that ALL those teams are paying good money. If you're paying money for a coach to be with you, coach you, and support you, then you shouldn't need to "share" that coach's attention to the point where that coach shows up at your rival's national championships and marches in your rivals' country ceremony. Maybe this is what I don't understand about the whole situation. No matter which team you are, if you're paying money out of your own pocket [or your sport federation's pocket], then you're paying for that coach's time and unless the rival team is willing to split the cost, I don't see why you should have to settle for less time with that coach.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more idiotic it was for V/M to stick with Marina. Surely there are other coaches they could have gone to???

Isn't this whole "marching with the other team" business blown out of proportion? And besides, as stated earlier, since neither D/W or V/M marched, I don't think it was a crime for Marina to march with the Shibutani's and the US team.

 

[bekalc]

Isn't this whole "marching with the other team" business blown out of proportion? And besides, as stated earlier, since neither D/W or V/M marched, I don't think it was a crime for Marina to march with the Shibutani's and the US team.

Then why the heck did they even mention it-silliness on their part.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Too much talk about marching going on here, I thought we were done with that last year after Gracie Gold's LP.

 

[hyperinflation]

And why isn't anyone raking Brian Orser over the coals for Conflict of Interest and Marching With The Wrong Team? Really, this is just a tempest in a very very small teapot.

cuz he's not coaching 1 and 2

imagine if yuzuru and patrick shared the same coach

i don't get why people are talking about sour grapes. it didn't come across that way tonally to me at all - i thought they were very frank about what was probably a very difficult situation for all of them and scott did concede that in 2010 'the shoe was on the other foot'. i thought their frustrations were understandable and i don't see anything particularly untoward about the way they articulated them

 

[ice coverage]

I do not think it is accurate at all to say that Tessa and Scott stagnated after all they broke the FD world record (of course Meryl and Charlie broke it soon afterwards) and they are the Olympic silver medalists. If they 'stagnated,' what are you saying about everyone else in the ice dancing?

I agree Virtue and Moir should have left Zoueva but in the end, despite everything, it sounds like they loved her too much to leave. They had been with her forever. I think they didn't want to believe she was anything other than fair to both couples and trusted her to be. None of us can really say if Zoueva treated both equally or not in this Olympic season- only she knows if she was or wasn't- and how much energy she was putting into one couple versus another. At the end, they decided to stay and trust her. It sounds like the comments made today were coming from a place of hurt.

In terms of their attitude, they have not said ANYTHING negative about Charlie and Meryl's success- a mutual approach both teams have taken. Instead for just speaking their mind on their feelings as they are leaving the sport, they are branded by some people as classless/sore losers. Which is ridiculous because again, they themselves haven't said anything bad about Charlie or Meryl. Both couples are truly legends in their own rights for what they have been able to do in ice dancing ---their rivalry is legendary and will be discussed for generations- both deserve nothing but respect for everything they have accomplished.

Great post, skatingfan20. Thank you.

Agree that it must have been terribly disheartening for Virtue/Moir that they did choose Zoueva over Shpilband -- b/c they had a "special" relationship with her, V/M said at the time -- and then their trust in her proved to be overly optimistic.

 

[seniorita]

I dont get the marching thing, is it so important for the outcome of competition? Is it at all important since they didnt march in the OC?
Orser marched with Javier, a medal contender for sure, instead of Hanyu, didnt hurt Hanyu that much.
Funniest moment for me, when Orser was running to change jackets in the sp and back to back skates of his skaters, he appeared in sp with Javier and in Lp with Hanyu also.

 

[Effykc]

Grishuk & Platov also shared coaches with their direct competitors and chosed to go to another coach even though they were the highest ranking of the ice dance pairs. In hindsight it is easy to argue that V+M should have gone with Igor S. Winning Olympic Gold as early as they did, can be a mixed blessing. Allthough they developed a lot over the seasons it is difficult to change a winning game, wheras the upcoming couple knows that they cannot only maitain but need to make a significant chance. Zueva and Shipband managed to change D+W from a somewhat awkvard couple into an act with a very strong appeal. It took some year before they discovered the old ballerina qualities in Davis. They learned how to present her, dress her and choreograph for her and really use her "unearthyness" in numbers like Giselle. By that and by the very strong atletics skills of the couple, they overtook V+M, by having more theatrical and dramatic programmes where V+M stayed in a lyrical repertoire (save Carmen). Reading about Zueva's Work with the great G&G it says that she was very inspired by Sergei Grinkov. The last years programmes, where she did her best work on D+W, could indicate that she draw more inspiration from this team.

So maybe V+M should have changed coach to gain a fresh view, but it should have been done a few years back, not just for this season.

 

[ManyCairns]

Davis/White did get to march with their coach in 2010 -- their coach being Shpilband. They did not get to march with their coach Zoueva. And in 2010, Virtue/Moir did not get to march with their coach Shpilband, but they did get to march with their coach Zoueva. So what would or would not have been "fair" in 2014 is a matter of opinion.​

Certainly agree that what is fair is a matter of opinion, but since neither team marched this time, why shouldn't Zoueva march with the Shibs? Agree with Scott's mother that Zoueva was in a no-win position, in this and many other respects. Marching with the Shibs seems innocuous since neither V/M nor D/W marched, but apparently it did bother Scott and/or Tessa. I wonder if they made that known to Marina prior to the fact.

I would add that Zoueva is the one who pushed Shpilband out of Canton. Because of arrogance or lack of foresight or both, I think she did not anticipate that coaching the world's top two dance couples singlehandedly would be such a delicate responsibility.

I also think this has a lot to do with it. I have no idea why she wanted Shpilband out, but my reaction was always, "What are you thinking???" However, I also wondered why both D/W and V/M stayed. Obviously I guess they both felt Marina was the primary coach and provided what they most needed. But I would also think that all involved could have anticipated it might not end up being completely satisfactory for everyone all the time. However, I don't glibly assume that changing coaches would have worked any better, or that it would have been an easy or obvious thing to attempt. As Doris already noted, Belbin/Agosto switched, and that didn't really work out for them. I can only imagine there were a huge number of pros and cons about leaving vs. staying.

However, I will defend Marina and team with this -- I think V/M's programs were amazing this season and last, and in the Olys V/M really did this year's short and (especially) long justice in the individual competition. They were "on" in a way I hadn't seen all season. So, for all the great programs and performances since 2010, I don't know that staying with Marina was such a bad thing at all -- except insofar as they might feel she wasn't politicking and pushing for them as much (that is my thought, not anything V/M have said).

I hear you about agents ... but I would hope that if Virtue/Moir and Davis/White are skating in the same show, the management of the show would feel morally obligated to keep their fees as close as possible. Both couples have been world champions and Olympic medalists, and I think agents for both couples could rightfully claim the same ballpark level of subjective popularity.
I do have some professional knowledge of this type of situation (although unrelated to sports) -- and suffice it to say that it really is not in the long-term interest of the show executives to not be straight shooters in this regard.

Maybe in the same ballpark, and I agree that similar skills and similar name recognition SHOULD demand similar pay, but I doubt organizers and producers feel a moral obligation to offer the same pay and perks. I think several skaters on tours have noted pay differences (I'm thinking of Gordeeva in My Sergei as one example) -- your skills and your fame would only serve you to the extent they are the basis for your contract negotiations. After that, the skaters are putting in similar hours and effort for probably very different pay.

Now then ... Mrs. P, you know I have all the respect and affection in the world for you. But I gotta say something here.

I am aware that MattK clearly supports Virtue/Moir (as do I ). But I don't think he ever said, "I hate D/W."

And I do not think his posts have been any more repetitive than those of at least one or two D/W fans who have posted ad nauseam (also in more than one thread) not only to profess their love for D/W but also to whine [yes, I said it] that some people have the nerve to disagree with their love. If the volume of their posts is tolerable, I do not understand why the volume of MattK's is not.

And BTW, it is not MattK's fault -- nor anyone else's -- that zillions of overlapping threads are discussing ice dance, Davis/White, and Virtue/Moir.

It is an empirical question, but my impression is the criticism of D/W has been far greater in quantity than praise for them. Well, particularly the first day after the comp, although I can see that since then several new posters have joined and posted praise/defense of D/W, AWA longtime posters, which appeared as a defense to me because of the initial criticism -- but that is just my subjective impression. We could count the total number of posts and tally positive and negative statements for each team -- but I don't care enough to do that and I doubt anyone else does, either.

However, it is not merely Matt K's repetition that is offensive, but his tone and statements. He doesn't just say, "V/M are better IN MY VIEW because of x, y, and z." He says things like:

"To be placed below a team like the Americans with their shallow edges and disjointed partnering is a huge blow to them. Apparently, using a ton of steps to run on the ice is more valued than beautiful gliding. Although honestly, I think everyone, including them and us, have made peace with it. Not only are V/M favorites among legions of current skaters and former world ice dance champions (much to the chagrin of D/W and their übers), they will leave a better legacy than D/W over time. The US has never won an Ice Dance Olympic gold medal and now they have it. Bravo, USA. Oh say, can you see, by the dawns [sic] early light..."

Saying D/W have disjointed partnering is subjective and vague; stating that V/M have legions of fans and D/W are chagrined by this with the strong implication that D/W don't have fans is subjective and dubious; he makes a huge assumption that V/M will have a greater legacy (I personally doubt this; unless either team goes on to choreographing work or they continue skating in ways that put out bigger and more varied artistic visions I doubt either team is going to be especially remembered except among skating fans. However, D/W have the "first US gold in ice dance" which is an objective record that MIGHT stand out over the years -- might). Then Matt K finishes with the snarky reference to the US National Anthem.

Statements like these are rude, disrespectful, carry loads of negative assumptions, are hyperbolic -- AND Matt K repeats them ad nauseum. He could have said the same things about seeing too many steps vs gliding, V/M have better edging in his opinion, etc. without the added assumptions and insults.

 

[ManyCairns]

Grishuk & Platov also shared coaches with their direct competitors and chosed to go to another coach even though they were the highest ranking of the ice dance pairs. In hindsight it is easy to argue that V+M should have gone with Igor S. Winning Olympic Gold as early as they did, can be a mixed blessing. Allthough they developed a lot over the seasons it is difficult to change a winning game, wheras the upcoming couple knows that they cannot only maitain but need to make a significant chance. Zueva and Shipband managed to change D+W from a somewhat awkvard couple into an act with a very strong appeal. It took some year before they discovered the old ballerina qualities in Davis. They learned how to present her, dress her and choreograph for her and really use her "unearthyness" in numbers like Giselle. By that and by the very strong atletics skills of the couple, they overtook V+M, by having more theatrical and dramatic programmes where V+M stayed in a lyrical repertoire (save Carmen). Reading about Zueva's Work with the great G&G it says that she was very inspired by Sergei Grinkov. The last years programmes, where she did her best work on D+W, could indicate that she draw more inspiration from this team.

So maybe V+M should have changed coach to gain a fresh view, but it should have been done a few years back, not just for this season.

PS: Apologies for the double post, but I have to say with emphasis -- great points, Effykc! I'm glad you came out of lurkdom to make them. Please don't wait four more years to post again!

 

[Kittosuni]

I wonder if I/K can skate a different program with passion and character after the swan lake. They seem to skate well with cutesy/love theme program since they connect really well. When the top 2 pairs retire they should go to Marina. Its cute when Ilinyykh mentioned Moir as his crush :