- Joined
- Jan 15, 2010
For me, I don't like C/B's skating and I don't really know why. When I watch them I get the feeling that they're not clean (sloppy), but I don't know too much about ice dance, so I can't really say...
2014 Skate Canada Free Dance 11/01
- Thread starter dorispulaski
- Start date
For me, I don't like C/B's skating and I don't really know why. When I watch them I get the feeling that they're not clean (sloppy), but I don't know too much about ice dance, so I can't really say...
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2014
Parsons/Parsons were the only ones who had a chance before last event at Zagreb. After the first event they needed to win at Zagreb and one of the russian teams (Morozova/Zhirnov or Yanovskaya/Mozgov, both winners of their first events) should be no higher than 4th place (if P/P win) or 5th place (if P/P came second). The most possible scenario (and the only real, IMO) for P/P to qulify to JGPF was to win silver medal (Y/M overall winners) and M/Z to come 5th.
And it almost happened. P/P scored VERY well (in fact, a bunch of PBs) while Y/M and M/Z got marked really LOW (a tons of level 1s in both SD and FD), especially M/Z. For example, M/Z FD score was 72 points (it's almost 11 points lower than at their first GP, and it was lowest BV out of top 7), and they finished 5th in FD (after even hungarians and ukrainians, who had visible mistakes). Parsons, hungarians and ukrainians also had a sudden boost in ther PCS (especially ukrainians and hungarians, up to 4 points to their last event PCS). But it was enough for M/Z to finish 4th overall, Y/M won.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that it'll be Canada VS Russia JGPF (both countries have 3 teams). VERY interesting. IMO, it was a clearly planned action to drag any other (than Canadian or Russian) team in JGPF. But the field wasn't deep enough to drown M/Z lower than 4th place, and it was almost impossible to drown Y/M even to the second place. Other teams were so much weaker technically that it was almost funny. But the sad thing in this situation were Morozova's and Zhirnov's faces when their FD scores were announced. They were so happy right after the dance, all smiles and hugs and cries, they though they did great, and a couple minutes later in K&C after their scores were announced they looked like someone have died right before their eyes.
You can read some people thoughts after the event here: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?52249-2014-Croatia-Cup-JGP-Free-Dance This thread is hilariousAnd it's only 3 pages, so it'll not take a lot of your time.
P.S. But it's obviously just my version. Conspiracy theory at its best
Edit: oooh, long post. I should say something on topic. Go G/P!
Wow, thank Snow. Unfortunately I missed the junior GP. I could follow only the ladies in 2 events and that's it.
I'm glad Y&M won though. They're my favorite russian couple, including seniors.
Of course, I'm waiting for team Ruslena.
I fell in love with FS because of Ice Dance, and I've been following it since 84. Still, I can't say I'm an expert either. Especially about the "new" system.
Ice Dance is the most difficult discipline when it comes to this. People complain because it's so difficult to see changes in the placement but they don't have jumps or big lifts, which will make that more likely to happen.
My only complain with the judges is that, IMO they do not seem to check and score better the edge work of the skaters which I think in dance it's an important element.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Realistically, they cannot review every turn, so they review only those that at least one of the 3 tech panel flagged real time.
As a result, judging of step sequences is often a bit generous.
As a result, judging of step sequences is often a bit generous.
You are welcome.
I fully agree with one Level reduction for Twizzles for M&K – there was a Piruette…so they got Level 3.
1. How do you explain that H&Don got Level 4 Twizzles while Madison did a Piruette also plus thanks to missing 4 rotations in difficult arm position (Feature from Group A) the Level should start from Level 3 and a Piruette should put it into Level 2…so why they got Level 4?
2. How do you explain Level 4 for W&P while the couple didn’t keep 4 rotations in difficult leg positions…so they should get Level 3 instead…why they didn‘t?
The execution of Slide steps…from Pattern Dance Elements Paso Doble: “Steps 8 and 9 are most unusual slip steps, (sometimes called “slide steps”) for both the lady (skating backward) and the man (skating forward). They are skated on the flat with both blades on the ice and with the free foot sliding closely past the skating foot to full extension. There are two optional ways to perform these steps: one option is to skate with the knee(s) of the weight bearing leg(s) bent as they slide across the ice, and the other option is to skate with the knee(s) of both of the weight bearing legs straight. “
So slide step means that you are touching the ice with your blade for whole trace.
As to toe pick – if you would be gliding and then touch the ice with a toe pick you would fall. People watch whole blade thinking that whole blade is touching the ice but in reality it is just a small part of the blade which is touching the ice if centered well (and that part is not definitely a toe pick). If Kirill’s slide step would be wrong – then we would see that his blade left the ice / that he scratched the ice and the ice would spread around / that he would loose speed or balance. It didn’t happen.
There is also a part in Pattern Dance Elements Paso Doble: “On step 10 the free foot must be lifted distinctly from the ice.“
Andrew Poje and Paul Poirier almost didn’t lift a free leg and it was definitely not distinct. How do you explain that both dancers got both Key Points counted?
Ksenia’s change of edge was done in both Key Points, but opening edge in Partial Step Sequence (third picture) was less visible from camera angle (but angle of body in comparison with ice helped – you can’t have such angle not being in edge, because having no edge and such angle of body against the ice – you would fall immediatelly)…
If you look at different camera angle the opening edge is more visible…
Other ladies didn’t have more visible edges and they got the Key Point counted.
In my analysis I described Not Touching Step Sequences and noticed some edges which were not clean or clearly done…so the couple didn’t execute the highest Level 4, because for this you need all turns clean and it didn’t happen. Level 3 in Step Sequence was fully OK.
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2014
True. That's why I think people don't have to go mad about the judging so much and review the videos over and over.
Enjoy the dance, I would say.
That is true. But Twizzles and Spins don’t take so much time and mistakes in putting correct Levels were done even in such elements here in Kelowna.
Of course…try to imagine that Technical panel would excuse that they can’t watch every edge, so maybe they will put wrong Levels – one Level means 1.5 points of difference.
Look at this year World Championships, first four couples finished in one point. Try to imagine that Technical panel would show work like here in Kelowna. I think that you will agree with me that every of those four couples would see a big difference between first and fourth place – and try to explain them: “Hm, sorry, Technical panel can’t rewatch all edges, so maybe you were better and you deserved gold, but hm, you know, they simply can’t be that detailed, because it takes time.“
But here we are not talking about one point only.
M&K in Canada and M&Z in JGP Zagreb were robbed about plus minus 7-10 points, while Technical panel forgived mistakes in case of other couples. At 2014 World Championships 10 points difference in FD meant a range from 7th to 16th place in FD. Do you really mean that for example coaches should say to his/her students: “No matter, you work many hours a day, you put so much effort into your skating since you were 4 years old, but don’t be sad about low marks, it is just sport…just enjoy your time on the ice!“ Would you really tell them such words?
And if Technical panel is not able to be correct in putting Levels, why to loose their time trying to play that they can? Change rules or come back to old rules or create an elements where Technical panel will avoid mistakes which can lead to 4.5 points of difference just in one element only (Step Sequence Level 1 or 3 for example).
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2014
I really don't know what are you talking about.
What I'm saying is that you people are getting sick with all these reviews, and playing the mini-me judge.
I do enjoy your reviews, I really do because I also learn from them. But there is a limit to the lament also, IMO.
The way I see it is that we spend too much time and energy on these boards by concentrating only on the negative things.
I think sometimes we're not able even to enjoy the skating and the competition because we're always on the edge to find something negative about the skaters, judges, etc.
That's toxic, but that's just me maybe.
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2014
Alba, I so agree with you! I don't know why it always has to be a conspiracy theory; and idk why old conspiracy theories get brought up to support new ones.The fact of the matter is, we can always look at things from a negative perspective and find things to support our negativity. Or we can realize that it is what it is; and maybe we're being too harsh. Our negativity really does nothing to entice new individuals in this circle...and does nothing for the morale of all of the people who work very hard potentially reading this (like - skaters, their families, etc.).
I agree completely. Having watched skating for many years, I don't believe that a technical panel can bias calls as sisinka believes. They are all on microphone and recorded. If there was any issues, they would be reprimanded, I am sure of that. From what I have heard, most calls have all 3 tech panel members agree. This would mean that almost all the time, there is collusion to rig the results. I find this very hard to believe.
The fact of the matter is, we can always look at things from a negative perspective and find things to support our negativity. Or we can realize that it is what it is; and maybe we're being too harsh. Our negativity really does nothing to entice new individuals in this circle...and does nothing for the morale of all of the people who work very hard potentially reading this (like - skaters, their families, etc.).
Well, sisinka is definitely not the only one who believes in that. You weren't here during Sochi Olympics, were you?
Good point. I wasn't sure whether Zachary had fallen at first, and almost didn't notice it. At first I thought that final roll onto the ice might have been part of the final ending pose, but then when Zachary put his head in his hands and looked so unhappy, I realized it must have been a fall afterall.
So perhaps if Zach had been more creative he could have hidden it better. Of course, it's easy for us to judge sitting here, but it probably isn't so easy to do when you're the one out there!
I don't think either Piper/Paul or Andrew/Kaitlin are romantic couples off-ice, but partnerships are complex and no one knows for sure, even though we skating viewers sometimes think we know everything about these skaters.
The fact that some skating fans want these teams to be real-life couples shows these teams are doing a good job together.
Tracy Wilson said on CTV's coverage that although she likes M&K and they have a lot of potential, she thought the judges' marks for them were fair. Tracy Wilson said this was not M&K's best skate and that it was more like a pairs program.
I agree with you that the marks for the Canadian teams (both G&P & W&P) were a little on the high side, but then again, remember that at last year's Cup of Russia, it was M&K who were given generous marks (along with the other Russian teams) and it was W&P and G&P who were undermarked. So these things often even out over time.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
The British Eurosport team did not seem surprised at M&K's marks.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r_2I3couUiQ
They thought that things seemed to become unglued after Monko's twizzle mistake, and that there were many small errors, and that overall the routine lacked technical difficulty.
@
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r_2I3couUiQ#t=4m25s
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r_2I3couUiQ
They thought that things seemed to become unglued after Monko's twizzle mistake, and that there were many small errors, and that overall the routine lacked technical difficulty.
@
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r_2I3couUiQ#t=4m25s
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It is always interesting to know opinions from many sides. Although during my life I heard many comment made by commentators which were not too precise (remember one judge who persuaded skating fans that Penny Coomes & Nik Buckland have great British skating technique in style of Torvill & Dean)…
Mistakes were in everybody’s program, nobody had all edges clear and more teams had more problems on other elements.
I was surprised that commentator also didn’t notice Madi’s Piruette in Twizzles and Piper’s no knee action and not finished movements while they started with M&K’s mistakes.
Did the commentator mean a difficulty of M&K’s FD after watching Levels going down (commentators have chance to see protocols immediatelly)? But more probably they meant that the choreography lacked some difficulty. It is strange that in this case they didn’t notice Zhiganshina & Gazsi, where the lack of difficulty in choreo is a reality.
In my opinion M&K’s FD is difficult enough but I will be 100% sure of it after making an analysis of comparing top couples programs. We will see than…
elif said:
Yes, probably after last Grand Prix.
I really don't know what are you talking about.
What I'm saying is that you people are getting sick with all these reviews, and playing the mini-me judge.
I do enjoy your reviews, I really do because I also learn from them. But there is a limit to the lament also, IMO.
The way I see it is that we spend too much time and energy on these boards by concentrating only on the negative things.
I think sometimes we're not able even to enjoy the skating and the competition because we're always on the edge to find something negative about the skaters, judges, etc.
That's toxic, but that's just me maybe.
I agree that Forum should be supportive for skaters.
Doing some sort of technical analysis, it is impossible to be positive only because looking at Required Elements you must find what is wrong and what is right, not just positive things.
Most other comments made by me after that analysis were a reaction on people who thinks that Technical panel and judges were fair… they were simply not (not only to M&K, but also to H&D and H&D).
I would like to enjoy skating and mainly dancing. But this positive feelings stop in moment when I see points. Watching Hurtado & Diaz‘s SD and then see their Component score – this is a great example of changement positive mood into negative mood in few seconds.
If I see that any couple performs something on high level, I want them to be paid for it. And if they are not I want to know why. So I re-watch videos and look at rules and compare with others.
Looking for negative things is not my plan. This is only a consequence of points which don’t go well with executed performances.
Let’s jump to Cup of China and hope that Technical panel and judges will show better work and there will be no moot places.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
I know when I watched the event live, via ice network, which has NO commentary, I found M&K's FD performance very untidy and error-ridden, Hubbell & Donohue's to have a number of errors, and Weaver & Poje's to be significantly better than either.
Commentators doing live commentary do not have the option to slow the broadcast down to see whether their first glance was right.
On reviewing the event later, I would not have condemned M&K as strongly as I would have doing live commentary, because there were some good things in the performance, but at first viewing, I felt that whenever I would have taken a photograph, especially after the twizzle error, it would not have been attractive.
This is the sort of feeling that is likely to impact PCS, because judges do not have forever to make a decision.
I was not surprised that it struck the British Eurosport guys the way it did.
The good news is that I think they can do this program much better than they did here.
Commentators doing live commentary do not have the option to slow the broadcast down to see whether their first glance was right.
On reviewing the event later, I would not have condemned M&K as strongly as I would have doing live commentary, because there were some good things in the performance, but at first viewing, I felt that whenever I would have taken a photograph, especially after the twizzle error, it would not have been attractive.
This is the sort of feeling that is likely to impact PCS, because judges do not have forever to make a decision.
I was not surprised that it struck the British Eurosport guys the way it did.
The good news is that I think they can do this program much better than they did here.
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- Joined
- Feb 26, 2014
I'm not all sugar, you know that sisinka. I don't think skaters and judges are babies which needs our protection.
It's not about that. I do have my complains as well, like everyone here.
What I'm saying is, what's the point in going on and on, for days, on how many turns, diagonals, toe-pick, hoops or no hoops, rule 2, rule 3, step 1, step 3, leg position, freeze picture, videos, and in the end people will still disagree.
Some because they think differently, see different things appparently, and others because of personal or national bias.
That's true. Actually I did like them more at test skate.
As I mentioned above, Tracy Wilson said on the CTV coverage that although she likes M&K and they have a lot of potential, she didn't think this was a good Dance for them.
She felt that this FD doesn't give M&K a distinctive enough program to exhibit their dance skills and said it was constructed more like a Pairs program. I thought it was okay, but thought it might finish a little higher than it did.
Tracy Wilson said she thought this was the best Dance that G&P have done so far. I think their 'Hitchcock' routine last year is their most unique program so far, but in terms of technical ability they are ahead of where they were last year since last season an injury took several months of training time away. It's a more traditional FD for G&P this year, and doesn't have the storytelling narrative of the 'Hitchcock' program, but Wilson was stronger in her praise for this team than she has been in the past.
I also think that W&P had a more interesting FD last year and that last year's FD was more intense and seemed to suit their personalities and come alive more, but again, it appears that in terms of technical ability and consistency, W&P are ahead of where they were a year ago. The fact that they are now the #1 Canadian dance team with Tessa & Scott on hiatus may also be helping elevate them with the judges. Unless they have a major wipe-out at Nationals, it looks like W&P will win the Canadian National title that has eluded them for so long!
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2005
W&P and G&P ARE NOT a couple off the ice!!
