2014 Trophée Eric Bompard Short Dance 11/21

[sisinka]

Oh, sisinka, I think you got her wrong. She probably replied to my comment here:

Oh, I am deeply sorry then. :hopelessness:

 

[dorispulaski]

I agree with Sara and Adria...and I don't agree with Piper and Paul. I meant Spanish dance style which is certainly not only about the woman and man role, but it is simply Spanish dance style with a lot of passion etc. I don't see Spanish dance style in Piper's skating and Paul is average in it. We have simply different opinions and visibly I am not able to translate what I mean with "Piper doesn't have Spanish dance style" and Paul lacks passion.

I do agree that that we are having some kind of communication problem perhaps.

The center of this year's SD is paso doble, not a generic Spanish dance styling. It is the march of the matador into the bullring. He can have a cape, a female fan, a bull or for that matter, picadores. It is all very serious, very gladiatorial, and the bullfighter is most apt to survive if he is arrogant, calm and skilled.

He should not be not engaged in any seductions until after the bullfight-not unless he wants to be a dead matador. And indeed there is no requirement that he live through the bullfight to exit the ring and find a woman.

The ISU is allowing a scenario where other Spanish-themed dances may be done with the Paso, but the routine may be all paso, if one desires.

So I see only a requirement for paso, not for Spanish passion. Clearly, you don't agree.

 

[elif]

So I see only a requirement for paso, not for Spanish passion. Clearly, you don't agree.

Problem is Gilles/Poirier doesn't have any kind of paso doble interpretation either.

 

[sisinka]

The center of this year's SD is paso doble, not a generic Spanish dance styling. It is the march of the matador into the bullring. He can have a cape, a female fan, a bull or for that matter, picadores. It is all very serious, very gladiatorial, and the bullfighter is most apt to survive if he is arrogant, calm and skilled.

He should not be not engaged in any seductions until after the bullfight-not unless he wants to be a dead matador. And indeed there is no requirement that he live through the bullfight to exit the ring and find a woman.

The ISU is allowing a scenario where other Spanish-themed dances may be done with the Paso, but the routine may be all paso, if one desires.

So I see only a requirement for paso, not for Spanish passion. Clearly, you don't agree.

Yes, I connect Paso Doble and Flamenco with passion.

This season – the best choreographers are Antonio Najarro and Krylova & Camerlengo team – and surprisingly all those choreographies are connected with passionate dance (also Annissina& Peizerat’s OD 2002 and Pechalat & Bourzat’s OD 2008). Why, when passion is not a part of Spanish dance style? (Sure Jota or Sevillanas are more happy and energetic than those above, but couples didn’t choose such style.)

At World Championships 2009 - Paso Doble Compulsory dance was skated there. Top teams were trying to portray passionate and aggressive dance. Why when Paso Doble is not connected with passion? Were they all wrong?

Paso Doble is a ballroom dance also. Looking at some videos from YouTube all dancers try to be passionate. Why when it is not about passion?

 

[dorispulaski]

http://www.ice-dance.com/main/technical-reference/dance-patterns-descriptions/paso-doble

The Paso Doble is a dramatic and powerful Spanish dance requiring good body control and precise footwork. It can be expressed in terms of it's origins from the music of bull fighting or in Flamenco style. The overall pattern of the Paso Doble is approximately elliptical, distorted here and there by outward bulges. The opening progressive is on a curve but the next few steps are rather straight. The change of edge produces an outward bulge followed by steps 12 to 25 which form a curve. The cross rolls cause a deviation in the pattern and there is a final bulge before the restart of the dance.

The ISU allows a flamenco treatment, which is very passionate, but here's what the dance is about:

http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3pasodoble.htm

Paso Doble Dance History origin Title
Spanish bullfighting goes all the way back to Crete, and could have Greek and/or Syrian origins but is reported to not have come to Spain till the 1700's. France had an infantry march named "Pas redoublé" around 1790 and thus comes from this March. The name Paso Doble (pass-o-dough-blay) is a Spanish folk dance which means "Two Steps" and is done to 2/4 time Spanish March music which was originally used for the procession at the beginning of corridas. Andalusians were extremely fond of this music during the 18th century.

Sometimes referred to as the Spanish One-step. It is modeled after the sound, drama, and movement of the Spanish and Portuguese bullfight. The "Paso" as it is affectionately known is a dance of the Bullfight which portrays the leader (Toreador) represents the bullfighter, while the follower symbolizes the bull. The Paso Doble dance became quite popular during the 1920s and later became the rage in Paris with the upper classes around the 1930's (which explains the many French terms used in the dance

Do you really want to see a passionate bull on the ice, chasing the bullfightet for romance rather than for murder and mayhem?

When you go from the folk dance to the ballroom, it changes a little.
http://dance.lovetoknow.com/Paso_Doble

Paso Doble is a beautiful dance form popularized circa 1930. Based on the Spanish bullfights, it bases the choreography on the character of the lead portraying the Torero (bullfighter) and the follow - not, as might be expected, the bull, but rather the torero's cape. While it grew to popularity in France, it fell into relative obscurity until the movie Strictly Ballroom featured it as the climactic dance scene. Since that time it has returned to dance halls and is regaining popularity, especially through shows such as So You Think You Can Dance and the Dancing with the Stars Tour.

Why do many other ice dancers do the passionate woman & man representation? Because it is allowed by the ISU, and because it is easy for them; it is their normal schtick, only done with a mantilla and a rose in their hair for the woman and a matador suit for the guy.

The origins of the dance are why Sara does the bull imitation. The cape is done by Torvill and Gilles and Chock because that is one authentic representation of the ballroom dance.

I like those representations because they are a little different, and present a challenge for the dancers.

 

[elif]

Other than Gilles's bat costume and your word they are bullfighters, I can't see anything paso doble in this short dance. Arrogant posture of the matador? a transitions to remind us there is bullfighting paso doble? expressions to show something deadly coming into them? a special lift? I don't think they even know what they are skating. They are coming into start pose Piper hugging Paul. (at the end too) OK I take your word it is not passionate.. Then what they are showing? Bull getting angry because losing or satisfaction of fighter because he won? Piper's expressions especially after steps reminds me happy waltz theme, certainly not a paso doble.

I have questions for Gilles/Poirier paso doble timing. I thought they did make mistakes.

 

[dorispulaski]

I was defending Piper as a cape. She does a reasonably convincing cape, and it is an allowed Paso interpretation. I think Paul has a thing or two to learn about being a matador. He could use some more arrogance and the right posture.

 

[mikiandorocks]

Looking at the protocols it's obvious that the judges were all over the place in the componentes department for the top three couples. Papadakis & Cizeron got a 6.75 for movement/linking footwork while other judges marked them with 8.50. In interpretation/Timing their were scored between 7.50 to 9.25!
Same goes for Gilles & Poirier: in linking footwork movement one judge marked them with a 6.00, another with a 6.50 while others opted for 7.50, 7.75 and 8.25. Almost the same thing for timing/interpretation: a 6.00, a 6.50 up to 8.50.
Hubbel & Donohue got a 5.25 in interpretation/timing while other judges scored them as high as 8.50 in the same segment
:shocked:

But looking to the couples outside of the top 3, there isn't such disparity between components scores for each segment. Some judges will have some explaining to do.

 

[dorispulaski]

very interesting.

 

[Ryan O]

Arrogance comes to mind more than bravery. C&P had a cape one year so it really isn't that new for Poirier.

How is it arrogant of G&P to skate to Torvill & Dean's program? :scratch: Christopher Dean himself choreographed it!

It's not as if they stole the program - it was given to them by Dean himself.

I have the same question for you that I had last season - what is the reason you always show up on the dance threads to make negative comments about G&P? I sense that you were unhappy when C&P split up and that you have carried over that negativity to the G&P partnership.

 

[MarieM]

How is it arrogant of G&P to skate to Torvill & Dean's program? :scratch: Christopher Dean himself choreographed it!

It's not as if they stole the program - it was given to them by Dean himself.

I have the same question for you that I had last season - what is the reason you always show up on the dance threads to make negative comments about G&P? I sense that you were unhappy when C&P split up and that you have carried over that negativity to the G&P partnership.

I think the arrogance is all about Dean himself :lol:

And BTW, the unwritten rule is that if you do the same program or an imitation, you do have to do it better. And that is not the case here. She has made tons of progress, but she's not on par. And thus, the programs fells flat.
It's PASO DOBLE ! Not Woman Doble. The man has to lead here. And clearly, I see a little boy a tad frightened with a crazy girl (that's what I do get from the make up sorry) that is doing a lot of stuffs but nothing really well.
Don't worry, I probably only have one PASO that I like this year : the spanish.

 

[beabstress]

Putting skating skills aside for the moment, I'm finding it interesting that when Poirier was with Crone, my attention was always drawn to him--rather like Dean of Torvill/Dean and Cizeron of Papadakis/Cizeron. Now, with Gilles, all I see is Piper. Paul really recedes into the background, which surprises me. It's not necessarily a BAD thing, just surprising. Paul may have the stronger skating skills in his current partnership, but his partner has the stronger performance skills. So perhaps the decision to make Piper the cape, and to put the. . . INTERESTING. . . eye makeup on her, was a strategic one, an attempt to play to their strengths as a team. But this dance might provide a good opportunity for Paul to share some of the spotlight, to project more of the character he's playing. Although I'm not sold yet, I think the dance has potential, and I look forward to seeing improvements to it!

 

[mikiandorocks]

Honestly all I could focus on during Gilles & Poirier SD was her.

 

[wasabi]

How is it arrogant of G&P to skate to Torvill & Dean's program? :scratch: Christopher Dean himself choreographed it!

It's not as if they stole the program - it was given to them by Dean himself.

I have the same question for you that I had last season - what is the reason you always show up on the dance threads to make negative comments about G&P? I sense that you were unhappy when C&P split up and that you have carried over that negativity to the G&P partnership.

As I said last season , from all the information you posted about them and others at the club, you apparently know them or someone close to them. I do not know them, so I cannot say whether Dean "gave" it to them or whether they said they wanted to skate to it. "You show up on the dance forum" to make only supporting comments about G&P regardless of what they do or can do. I am not a fan and find them overscored (I am not the alone in that sentiment). You like them and are their greatest champion. So I guess it evens out.

Regarding bravery vs arrogance, it was a reply to another poster's comment, and my opinion.