2015-16 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[skylark]

Well, in my opinion, some of the skaters mentioned, have performance skills, and some do not. And some land quads *consistently*, and some do not.

I hope Jason recovers and comes back to the competitive season not because I think he does or does not have a chance of "competing", but because I love to watch him skate. I measure skaters with the "greenbacks" approach: who would make me part with my hard-earned dollars to put my butt in the seat? (assuming they were all skating across the street, since no one so far has seen me put my butt in a plane:rofl2

For me, Jason is a five (out of five) greenbacks skater. Not everyone is, and certainly not everyone who lands a quad is. So, I hope he recovers and skates strong. The extra revolution, meh.

This, times a million!

When I saw him at the first SA 2013 practice, I didn't know who he was. I knew an 18-year-old named Jason Brown had stepped in when Evan Lysacek had to withdraw, so I was actually predisposed to have a chip on my shoulder toward him.

But at that practice, I saw five other men anxiously repeating their quad attempts over and over, their faces a study in concentration and mostly frustration. Even Max Aaron, whom I like, did nothing but build speed, skate to the end of the rink and another quad attempt (splat!). Max had the edge on the others because he is so likeable and seemed good-natured even in his focus.

Jason was out there, practicing jumps yes, but basically skating to everyone's music. Dancing on the ice. Having fun and showing me that his goal was to enjoy himself and hopefully provide the audience with a few minutes' happiness. Yes, I got all that from a one-hour practice. He also has such a commanding, mature presence on the ice that I had a hard time accepting that he was the brand-new 18-year-old!

 

[Sydney Rose]

dO
Well, maybe it was just as well given Yuzu's performance there. Realistically, how good are his chances of competing on an equal footing with Hanyu, Chan, Uno and Boyang Jin unless he lands a decent quad? (Don't get me wrong, I find Jason charming and a great performer, but some of those guys have the technical goods + skating skills + performance skills at a very high level.

In addition to the four you mentioned, there is Fernandez to contend with. He's calmer this year and, if Orser can keep him that way, he's another major force to contend with.

I like Jason a lot too but I've also wondered about his chances now, especially after seeing how much Hanyu has upped his game. And as you noted, all the others (with the exception of Jin) not only have the technical goods but the skating and performance skills as well.

 

[skylark]

In addition to the four you mentioned, there is Fernandez to contend with. He's calmer this year and, if Orser can keep him that way, he's another major force to contend with.

I like Jason a lot too but I've also wondered about his chances now, especially after seeing how much Hanyu has upped his game. And as you noted, all the others (with the exception of Jin) not only have the technical goods but the skating and performance skills as well.

You may as well ask why someone like Michal Brezina is still competing. Or why V/T would return to competition after winning everything. They all must want to do it and feel that the competitions give something to their skating.

You seem to forget, though, that Jason is only 20 years old. Why in the world would he want to quit when he still has so much to contribute and so many people love to see him skate? Many feel that Jason brings serious skating skills and artistry to the sport that are unique to him.

Mrs. P has done analyses of how Jason's year went when he added the 3A (I think perhaps one is in this thread). He has a process to adding an element, when he's ready. Also, I've heard him say he won't, doesn't want to let the quality of the rest of his skating go, in pursuit of another rotation. I wonder about that actually - I sometimes think it might be smart to ease off on some of his difficult choreography while he incorporates a quad into his programs. But that isn't what he and his team want, obviously. And I love that he lets the quad attempt go and doesn't let it affect the rest of his program.

 

[Sai Bon]

You may as well ask why someone like Michal Brezina is still competing. Or why V/T would return to competition after winning everything. They all must want to do it and feel that the competitions give something to their skating.

You seem to forget, though, that Jason is only 20 years old. Why in the world would he want to quit when he still has so much to contribute and so many people love to see him skate? Many feel that Jason brings serious skating skills and artistry to the sport that are unique to him.

Mrs. P has done analyses of how Jason's year went when he added the 3A (I think perhaps one is in this thread). He has a process to adding an element, when he's ready. Also, I've heard him say he won't, doesn't want to let the quality of the rest of his skating go, in pursuit of another rotation. I wonder about that actually - I sometimes think it might be smart to ease off on some of his difficult choreography while he incorporates a quad into his programs. But that isn't what he and his team want, obviously. And I love that he lets the quad attempt go and doesn't let it affect the rest of his program.

Hold your horses, people! I never once suggested Jason should quit. His chances of a World medal may be small this year, but who knows what will happen next year? ITA with your (and others') comments about Jason's unique skills. He is lovely to watch and sets a great example to those whose programs are all about jumps. Maybe he will get a consistent quad by the time Pyeongchang rolls round...I recall reading somewhere that it took Shoma several years to master the 3A, and after that he got the quad really quickly. The question is, by then will a 2-quad SP and 3-quad LP be the norm if you want to get on the podium?

And skylark, sorry I forgot Javier!

 

[mrrice]

When it comes to Jason Brown, I have to think that once he gets his first quad. The rest will come. In my case, a lot of my problems with turns and jumps were in my head. I was always decent jumper and switch leaps were easy for me from a young age. However, I couldn't do Fouette turns if my life and or JOB depended on it. I always find it interesting to see how a skater showcases their strengths and hides their weaknesses. I love Josh as everybody knows but, I have never seen him attempt a falling leaf. A skill that Jason does better than any man in skating.

Michelle Kwan had Beautiful Falling Leafs at Worlds in 2001. By far the highest of any Lady skater that I've seen in person. I think K. Osmond might have good leaps as well but I honestly don't remember.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Hold your horses, people! I never once suggested Jason should quit. His chances of a World medal may be small this year, but who knows what will happen next year? ITA with your (and others') comments about Jason's unique skills. He is lovely to watch and sets a great example to those whose programs are all about jumps. Maybe he will get a consistent quad by the time Pyeongchang rolls round...I recall reading somewhere that it took Shoma several years to master the 3A, and after that he got the quad really quickly. The question is, by then will a 2-quad SP and 3-quad LP be the norm if you want to get on the podium?

And skylark, sorry I forgot Javier!

Well for what it is worth he is training the quad Sal as well and Kori has said he is actually pretty close on it. She expects both the 4T and 4S to be stable by 2018. She has a timeline in mind and expect him to be a two quad guy not just get a quad. He already has landed a 4T+3T in practice, about a week after he landed the quad itself. As he got that so quick i suspect that once he gets a solid 4T he could get a 4T+2T down in a heck of a lot less time that it took the get the quad. It is clear that they are thinking in terms of landing it in combination and not just as a solo jump. Honestly I don't think a 2 quad SP and 3 quad free is that far off from what Kori has in mind long term.

 

[Tavi...]

dO
Well, maybe it was just as well given Yuzu's performance there. Realistically, how good are his chances of competing on an equal footing with Hanyu, Chan, Uno and Boyang Jin unless he lands a decent quad? (Don't get me wrong, I find Jason charming and a great performer, but some of those guys have the technical goods + skating skills + performance skills at a very high level.

Except that of those you mentioned, only Yuzu and Jin were at NHK. I think you're assuming something you can't possibly know - that Jason, even if healthy, would have continued to struggle and placed middle of the pack. And that might have happened. But he also might have taken the quad out of the FS, revamped the layout slightly, and skated lights out. Or kept the program as is and nailed it.

In either of the last two scenarios, he could have scored well enough to be competitive at NHK: his personal best - from WTT in April - is 266.13, which would have been good enough for bronze, and only 3 points behind Jin. That's without a quad. Sure you can argue that these are different programs, that he's been struggling so far this season, and that WTT scores were a bit inflated. But NHK scores were also inflated, and most of his current struggles stem from trying to integrate that quad and a 3A with a hard entrance into an otherwise tough program.

Had he made it to the GPF, I agree that the competition would have been much tougher.

 

[musicfan80]

I love Josh as everybody knows but, I have never seen him attempt a falling leaf. A skill that Jason does better than any man in skating.

Michelle Kwan had Beautiful Falling Leafs at Worlds in 2001. By far the highest of any Lady skater that I've seen in person. I think K. Osmond might have good leaps as well but I honestly don't remember.

To be fair, how many skaters (male or female) try a jump that high in the air taking off and landing on different edges and on different feet? You not only have to be 10000% sure of where you are in the air but where your blades will be when you land. I can't imagine how scary practicing (and falling) on that can be. But maybe it isn't that much scarier than any other jump.

 

[mrrice]

To be fair, how many skaters (male or female) try a jump that high in the air taking off and landing on different edges and on different feet? You not only have to be 10000% sure of where you are in the air but where your blades will be when you land. I can't imagine how scary practicing (and falling) on that can be. But maybe it isn't that much scarier than any other jump.

This is a good question and adds to my "Should I dance first and skate second debate." I was NEVER afraid of falling leafs and loved doing them. In fact, I even tried doing "Switch Leaps" on the ice but they were too difficult and an injury waiting to happen. Believe it or not, the jump I had by far the most difficulty with was the "Salchow" don't ask me why because they seemed quite easy for most skaters but not me. Alissa C. is the only US champion I can remember who didn't have a Salchow.

 

[skylark]

Hold your horses, people! I never once suggested Jason should quit. His chances of a World medal may be small this year, but who knows what will happen next year? ITA with your (and others') comments about Jason's unique skills. He is lovely to watch and sets a great example to those whose programs are all about jumps. Maybe he will get a consistent quad by the time Pyeongchang rolls round...I recall reading somewhere that it took Shoma several years to master the 3A, and after that he got the quad really quickly. The question is, by then will a 2-quad SP and 3-quad LP be the norm if you want to get on the podium?

It's possible.... anything is in this sport! But sometimes things that people think will become the norm, don't. Okay, I think I have calmed down now.:cool14: It's a volatile subject. I watched my favorite skater from 2011 Nationals, Richard Dornbush, struggle to get and integrate the quad ever since. The effort has taken its toll on his gorgeous programs. He's still one of my favorites, there's so much about his beautiful edges and gentle presentation that I love. Sigh.

 

[Jammers]

Doing quads is the norm now if you want to really be a contender in the future. Just look at all the Junior Men doing quads now. I don't remember the Junior men doing this many quads 4-5 years ago but it's the norm now. I'm glad to see the younger US Men like Nathan and Vincent already doing quads at 15-16 and it sounds like Andrew Torgashev before he got hurt was landing them. It sets them up to be at least competitive when they go Senior. The presentation side can be learned but if you can't jump you don't succeed in this sport.

 

[el henry]

Doing quads is the norm now if you want to really be a contender in the future. Just look at all the Junior Men doing quads now. I don't remember the Junior men doing this many quads 4-5 years ago but it's the norm now. I'm glad to see the younger US Men like Nathan and Vincent already doing quads at 15-16 and it sounds like Andrew Torgashev before he got hurt was landing them. It sets them up to be at least competitive when they go Senior. The presentation side can be learned but if you can't jump you don't succeed in this sport.

Interesting, I would completely disagree about learning. Jumps can be learned, and, as we have seen so many times with so many skaters, they can be lost.

Some presentation skills can be learned. But presentation skills like Jason's... they can be polished, but they are not learned. Those gifts, I believe, are innate.

Whether judges reward those skills is another question. Whether I care if the judges reward those skills ... well, for my own personal enjoyment, nope, don't care.

 

[Ice Dance]

The presentation side can be learned but if you can't jump you don't succeed in this sport.

I've been hearing this for years, but I'm afraid it is not always true. People improve, but they don't necessarily improve beyond the level of their peers. And sadly, so often by the time they really develop the artistry, they lose the jumps.

Having the jumps early is a plus. Most guys who land them consistently seem to have done so early even if they don't put them into their programs until later. But guys grow up, just as girls do. They have to have strong technique & they have to stay healthy or they lose the jumps anyway.

We are seeing the young guys landing the jumps early. But what kind of jumps are those young guys going to need in order to compete? The technical envelope just seems to be exploding this season, and the PCS mark is maxing out. I hope the latter will be adjusted or we will lose the amazing upper tier of skaters with both presentation & technique in exchange for only the latter.

It's a balance.

 

[Jaana]

You seem to forget, though, that Jason is only 20 years old. Why in the world would he want to quit when he still has so much to contribute and so many people love to see him skate? Many feel that Jason brings serious skating skills and artistry to the sport that are unique to him.

I believe he will be 21 this month, and so will Hanyu.... On the other hand I think that in Boston Worlds Brown may have some chances as surely his UR or twofooted triple axels will be ignored there?

 

[Interspectator]

I believe he will be 21 this month, and so will Hanyu....

It's silly to compare anyone with Yuzu. His career path is so unlike any other skater competing right now. Jason has his own competitive time-table and path to follow.

 

[Jaana]

It's silly to compare anyone with Yuzu. His career path is so unlike any other skaters competing right now. Jason has his own competitive time-table and path to follow.

I agree, but it irritates me as fans keep posting year after year that Brown is only 18, only 19 and now only 20 (actually he will be 21 in about 2 weeks).... Next year it surely will be "only 21" = practically 22 at this time of the year.

 

[karne]

I agree, but it irritates me as fans keep posting year after year that Brown is only 18, only 19 and now only 20 (actually he will be 21 in about 2 weeks).... Next year it surely will be "only 21" = practically 22 at this time of the year.

Yes, and at "only" 21 Plushenko was already an Olympic medallist and a multiple World Champion.

Skaters develop at different speeds. 21 is still very young, especially for a skater like Jason who as far as we know has never had a serious injury and has been built slowly into the big jumps. There's every chance that Jason will be able to go on longer than Hanyu and make the difference in their development moot.

 

[Tavi...]

I believe he will be 21 this month, and so will Hanyu.... On the other hand I think that in Boston Worlds Brown may have some chances as surely his UR or twofooted triple axels will be ignored there?

I guess we've soured a little on Jason since 2011, have we?

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...son-Brown-was-AMAZING!-What-was-NBC-thinking-

02-02-2011, 02:49 AM #2
Jaana
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Thanks for the clip! WOW, I really enjoyed Jason´s skating style in that freeskate programme and hope that he will get the 3A soon and of course a quad, too. I especially loved his speed and the way he moves on the ice. He sure got a huge applause, and it was well-deserved.

I noticed this link for a Jason article (originally posted on FSUniverse):

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/spor...-olympics.html
Last edited by Jaana; 02-02-2011 at 03:03 AM.

 

[Mrs. P]

I agree, but it irritates me as fans keep posting year after year that Brown is only 18, only 19 and now only 20 (actually he will be 21 in about 2 weeks).... Next year it surely will be "only 21" = practically 22 at this time of the year.

I think most people when they're referring to Jason's age are referring to the general trajectory of when men figure skaters peak. Sure you have folks like Yuzuru and Plushenko (Shoma Uno and Boying Jin may be their equivalents in this current generation). But for the most part, even if someone enters seniors at age 16, they will unlikely peak to World/Olympic medal form for several years.

FWIW: The ages of the Olympic medalists:
2014: 19, 23 21
2010: 24, 27, 23
2006: 23, 20, 23
2002: 21, 19, 21

Jason will be 23 at the next Olympics. So if he peaks then, he isn't really on a different time table, as far as age, as far as Olympic medalists go. Maybe he's a bit old as far as getting that first world medal (Patrick Chan was 18 when he won his first world medal, Hanyu, 17.

Javier Fernandez, was about Jason's age when he competed at the 2010 Olympics. He was 14th. Thanks to going to Orser and working hard, he was able to transform himself from an relatively obscure European skater to top World skater in three years. He was a few weeks shy of 22 when he won his first world medal.

 

[shiroKJ]

I think most people when they're referring to Jason's age are referring to the general trajectory of when men figure skaters peak. Sure you have folks like Yuzuru and Plushenko (Shoma Uno and Boying Jin may be their equivalents in this current generation). But for the most part, even if someone enters seniors at age 16, they will unlikely peak to World/Olympic medal form for several years.

FWIW: The ages of the Olympic medalists:
2014: 20, 23 21
2010: 24, 27, 23
2006: 23, 20, 23
2002: 21, 19, 21

Jason will be 23 at the next Olympics. So if he peaks then, he isn't really on a different time table, as far as age, as far as Olympic medalists go. Maybe he's a bit old as far as getting that first world medal (Patrick Chan was 17 or 18 when he won his first world medal, Hanyu the same).

Javier Fernandez, was about Jason's age when he competed at the 2010 Olympics. He was 14th. Thanks to going to Orser and working hard, he was able to transform himself from an relatively obscure European skater to top World skater in three years. He was a few weeks shy of 22 when he won his first world medal.

Just a bit of correction on the ages.
Yuzuru was 19 when he won OGM and 17 at worlds w/ bronze.
Patrick was 18 at worlds w/ silver.