2015-16 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[el henry]

I believe Andrew is a placeholder entry for Croatia, the final JGP. I hope we will see him then. And if not, that he has a healthy and speedy recovery.

I will admit that Andrew is my favorite junior so far, although that is NOT related to my criticism of Nathan (well, perhaps: Andrew is a showman, and I like that. I do not like the gloves ) Almost went to the Liberty summer comp, but Andrew got injured, and Alexei K. was not enough of a draw ....

 

[OS]

hwell:


FWIW, I have a friend who absolutely abhors Philippe Candeloro, but loves Jason. I actually made the comparison once (I think they both exhibit some similarities) and she was like "No!"

Hey Phillippe's D'artagnan is one of the greatest Olympics moment ever... he is also one of my fav showman ever!!! Good child hood memory! If he had won the Olympics with that however, I bet you I will jump on the wagon and goes OVERSCORED!!! regardless

In any case, show her the Great Gatsby after US Nationals, and see if she still feel the same way.

 

[Mrs. P]

Hey Phillippe's D'artagnan is one of the greatest Olympics moment ever... he is also one of my fav showman ever!!! Good child hood memory! If he had won the Olympics with that however, I bet you I will jump on the wagon and goes OVERSCORED!!! regardless

In any case, show her the Great Gatsby after US Nationals, and see if she still feel the same way.

She liked Juke, so I don't think she would have a problem with this program.

 

[el henry]

She liked Juke, so I don't think she would have a problem with this program.

Yessss! Someone else who liked Juke; I no longer wander alone in the universe

 

[LRK]

Yessss! Someone else who liked Juke; I no longer wander alone in the universe

Sorry, totally OT, but that made me think of an old Indian song:

"I am alone,
in this world,
if I have a companion,
then it is my shadow."

It's actually not as depressing as it might seem:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHVHqwoNti8

Sorry about that - back to Juke... er, I mean US men.

 

[dorispulaski]

I'm not American, for example. And I'm not sure what good catering to "the US heartland judges/audience" would be to Jason.... internationally? Unless all those judges are also Americans in disguise?

I do adore Philippe, though. Maybe I just enjoy myself a bit of showmanship and camp - regardless its country of origin.

Skating to Juke to appeal to "US heartland judges" is a bad idea for several reasons.

Very few judges are urban African Americans from whose culture urban R&B and Chicago juke dancing is drawn.

For that matter, most of the US judges I have met are from either East Coast or West Coast, not the heartland at all.

 

[OS]

Skating to Juke to appeal to "US heartland judges" is a bad idea for several reasons.

Very few judges are urban African Americans from whose culture urban R&B and Chicago juke dancing is drawn.

For that matter, most of the US judges I have met are from either East Coast or West Coast, not the heartland at all.

Oh come on... you do know people like Clint Eastwood, Woody Allen, The Jeff/Beau/Bridges brothers even Hugh Laurie (Brit) are massive massive jazz and R&B fans right? All great jazz/r&b pianist too. Amy Winehouse, Michael Buble anyone? Diana Krall? I have watched all of them live. For goodness sake, I have never had problem with the music itself but for the Nth time, I do have problem with hokey lazy interpretation of any of it. It has always been a question of overmarking. If Jason didn't receive over 10+ points in PCS over everyone else's program and made this sport anti competitive regardless of quads, I wouldn't have complained at all.

In anycase, 'Heartland' is an ideal, not a geographical location. I love irish folk music have taken fiddle playing during one of my phases, and i am not even white!! Also some of the most innovative work in Jazz, R&B are in Britain, Canada and France these days.

 

[Mrs. P]

Again FWIW here's a note my friend wrote about why she likes Jason but not Phillipe.

I did not like Candeloro's "drama." It just felt so hammy and gimmicky. Or maybe I've been unduly influenced by all his shirt-taking-offing over the years -- ick.

Jason, on the other hand, I feel has the ability to interpret and present the drama and musicality of the piece without his ego or gimmickry getting in the way, and without resorting to hamminess. Love him.

So clearly YMMV. A lot. Full disclosure, the note was written after watching his FS, but I believe it's a general sentiment.

***
In other U.S. Men news, Vincent Zhou is third at JGP Linz, but shooting distance of second! Good luck to him in the FS.

 

[OS]

Again FWIW here's a note my friend wrote about why she likes Jason but not Phillipe.



So clearly YMMV. A lot. Full disclosure, the note was in written after watching his FS, but I believe it's a general sentiment.

Well.. at least she acknowledge it was gimmicky. However I'd argue Candeloro's interpretation was intentionally hammie in the traditional pantomime sense, afterall Dartagne was one of the best known and loved children's adventure fantasy character, while with Jason, I don't think the intention is there.

The only intentional hammie performance is probably his hicksville cotton eye Joe, while his hip pop mix is all sort of bad .

Nevertheless I have reasons why I feel this way... imagine the day Lenova beat Mao Asada doing the 3A in 2010.... :shocked: that is pretty much close how I feel when Jeremy was beat with their PCS equallised

 

[karne]

Just one thing: I'd appreciate if you wouldn't stereotype those who like Jason's programs and skating style as being 'Merican. Others who are fans have pointed out they are not from the U.S. And he has a sizable fan base in Japan and Russia.

Yep! Jason fan in the Land Down Under here. And apparently he got lots of love at JGP Brisbane (all those many moons ago!).

FWIW, I've watched videos of Jason's programs with Dutch, German, British, Spanish, Italian, Swedish and Finnish commentary, and he seems to be pretty much universally admired by all those commentators. The Spanish commentator especially went nuts after his free at Worlds. So no, I don't think his success is so very much due to nationality.

Yes. Ironically, the only commentators NOT happy and admiring of his skate? The American ones, especially one particularly bitter fellow who probably knows that Jason is better than he was.

Nevertheless I have reasons why I feel this way... imagine the day Lenova beat Mao Asada doing the 3A in 2010.... :shocked: that is pretty much close how I feel when Jeremy was beat with their PCS equallised

Oh, for heaven's sake. Jeremy came fifth at Nationals this year because you cannot go pop, pop splat and expect to win unless you're Chan or Hanyu. You especially cannot go pop, pop splat at Nationals when the guy who finishes one place ahead of you is landing +2 4S-3T.

 

[OS]

Oh, for heaven's sake. Jeremy came fifth at Nationals this year because you cannot go pop, pop splat and expect to win unless you're Chan or Hanyu. You especially cannot go pop, pop splat at Nationals when the guy who finishes one place ahead of you is landing +2 4S-3T.

Uhh I was obviously referring to 2014 - the year when Jason has yet to skate at the Olympics or Senior worlds. Hence the Junior/ Senior status. He has literally very limited senior reputation before being gifted with the huge PCS. His FS was 6th in Skate America, 5th overall. 3rd in GP TEB, 3rd overall, that's it. He received:
93.34 PCS, PLUS 16.24 in GOEs
Total 182.61. +33.37 points improvement from year before.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2014/2014_us_fs_champs/results.html

13.36 separate him from next skater, 2 Quads Max Aaron. These PCS never came down despite an uninspired FS at US Nationals 2015 where he received 92.42, and despite lack of international successes. So I still don't know where he got his PCS from, other than USFSA must really REALLY love him. To the point, it became unfair to other US men.

The same program's biggest international success was at
GP TEB 80.12 PCS

--------

On a relative basis 'in the real world', these are everyone else's PCS. All of which I'd class as better, more complete skater than Jason with better programs... except Maxim.

WC 2012
Patrick 90.14
Hanyu 83.00

WC2013
Denis 87.16 (Clean)
Patrick 89.28 (Mess, controversial result)
Hanyu 80.00 (Messy)

His contemporaries

Hanyus highest ever FS score prior to Sochi was at Japan Nationals 2013-14 season.
PCS 89.70

Maxim Kovtun's highest ever FS score prior to Sochi was at
Russia National 13-14 season where he won the FS and beat Plushy
PCS 89.00


2014 Skate America
Machida 88.42
Nam 71.64
Jason 81.36
Denis 79.84

Sochi Olympics
Yuzuru 90.98
Chan 92.7
Denis 82.14
Machida 82.72
Fernandez 89.14 (lol those European judges)
Daisuke 91.0
Jason Brown 84.28 (After Jeremy had that horrible disaster)

2015 world championship FS
Denis 88.36
Javier 89.06
Yuzuru 88.64
Nam 76.58
Jason 84.60 (No Jeremy skating)

 

[karne]

Uhh I was obviously referring to 2014 - the year when Jason has yet to skate at the Olympics or Senior worlds. Hence the Junior/ Senior status. He has no senior or international reputation before being gifted with the huge PCS. He received:
93.34 PCS, PLUS 16.24 in GOEs
Total 182.61. +33.37 points improvement from year before.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2014/2014_us_fs_champs/results.html

Oh, you mean the year when Jason had the absolute performance of his life up to that point and Jeremy only won because his SP was impeccable, even though he popped jumps in the LP?

Come on dude.

 

[OS]

Oh, you mean the year when Jason had the absolute performance of his life up to that point and Jeremy only won because his SP was impeccable, even though he popped jumps in the LP?

Come on dude.

Hanyu had performance of his life many many times and infact most of the time he steps on the ice. It took him many years of actual international success and proven records before he got anywhere near Patrick. And most of all, actual progress in every aspect of his skating?

Why is Jason special and exception to that rule? How the hell did he beat everyone else's highest PCS ever?

 

[aromaticchicken]

Os168, and etc: I really don't understand anyone who criticizes the USFSA for supporting Jason.

He may have as much maximum jump TES potential as Josh or Nathan at the moment, but he just placed fourth at worlds, the highest any American has since 2010. His WTT score is I believe the highest American score EVER. and these are from international judges. What, do you think the USFSA has some sort of conspiracy to boost his PCS with them, too?!

He may not be incredibly consistent, but up to this point who else in the past two years has been more consistent, especially when it counted most?

 

[Mrs. P]

Jason is not the only U.S. Men's competitor this season. How about Vincent Zhou? Can he medal again? Looking to see if he can get to the JGPF!

 

[OS]

Os168, and etc: I really don't understand anyone who criticizes the USFSA for supporting Jason.

He may have as much maximum jump TES potential as Josh or Nathan at the moment, but he just placed fourth at worlds, the highest any American has since 2010. His WTT score is I believe the highest American score EVER. and these are from international judges. What, do you think the USFSA has some sort of conspiracy to boost his PCS with them, too?!

He may not be incredibly consistent, but up to this point who else in the past two years has been more consistent, especially when it counted most?

It is a chick and egg situation. Without his outrageous world class inflation from nothing, would he able to skate internationally and build up his reputation and be seen as US's #1? With the position, it comes with natural bonuses from a power federation skater. The fact he was inflated so much so, Max couldn't have catch up with him with 3 quads, pretty much says everything. Adam can put out a performance of a life time too with Quads Lutz attempt, no difference. Josh could have one of the best SP ever, no difference. I am all for federation support their skaters, but support them EQUALLY. When it is as artificial as that, it makes it unfair as a competitive sport and slaps in the face of anyone who trains their butt off to compete.

 

[Mrs. P]

It is a chick and egg situation. Without his outrageous world class inflation from nothing, would he able to skate internationally and build up his reputation and be seen as US's #1? With the position, it comes with natural bonuses from a power federation skater. The fact he was inflated so much so, Max couldn't have catch up with him with 3 quads, pretty much says everything. Adam can put out a performance of a life time too with Quads Lutz attempt, no difference. Josh could have one of the best SP ever, no difference. I am all for federation support their skaters, but when it is as artificial as that, it makes it unfair as a competitive sport.

You have made your point quite clear. If you really want to talk about it you're welcome to start a separate thread.

 

[dasani]

Oh, for heaven's sake. Jeremy came fifth at Nationals this year because you cannot go pop, pop splat and expect to win unless you're Chan or Hanyu. You especially cannot go pop, pop splat at Nationals when the guy who finishes one place ahead of you is landing +2 4S-3T.

Hanyu had performance of his life many many times and infact most of the time he steps on the ice. It took him many years of actual international success and proven records before he got anywhere near Patrick. And most of all, actual progress in every aspect of his skating?

Why is Jason special and exception to that rule? How the hell did he beat everyone else's highest PCS ever?

Seeing this is a U.S. Men thread, I hope the discussion will leave out skaters from other countries and stick with the comparison between the U.S. Men.
With this said, I will not get into the way of the pot vs kettle debate

p.s. with less than 50 days countdown to Skate Canada, I hope we will get some news from Josh soon!

 

[Mrs. P]

I hope to hear news from Josh soon also. He has a lot of talent.

Next week will be fun -- US International Classic. Well get to see the latest from several U.S. men at the U.S. classic.

 

[aromaticchicken]

It is a chick and egg situation. Without his outrageous world class inflation from nothing, would he able to skate internationally and build up his reputation and be seen as US's #1? With the position, it comes with natural bonuses from a power federation skater. The fact he was inflated so much so, Max couldn't have catch up with him with 3 quads, pretty much says everything. Adam can put out a performance of a life time too with Quads Lutz attempt, no difference. Josh could have one of the best SP ever, no difference. I am all for federation support their skaters, but when it is as artificial as that, it makes it unfair as a competitive sport.

Except Jason was already receiving a well deserved pcs cushion *internationally* even before his Riverdance performance at nationals. It's how he got a junior world silver medal.

And second, at nationals adams quad lutzes were quite fairly <<, on the technical end it's useless if it's not rotated, and in the short he isn't supposed to get anything more than -2 GOE without steps leading into it.

As for Josh, he also got inflated pcs. In fact, I believe he had *higher* pcs in the long. In the short, he had a step out on his flip toe combination and I felt his 90+ sp score was inflated too. And remember, if Josh hadn't zayaked himself with double toes, he would've won.

And name me one performance from fall 2013 up until January 2015 where Josh or Adam or max performed cleaner or better than Jason at any event. Of course they gave him an edge.

At least name some more legitimate examples. If Nathan rolls in and is placed ridiculously behind Jason, at least you have something to complain about. Otherwise don't point to double downgraded "quad" lutzes and self-inflicted zayaking as examples of Jason's over inflation. His pcs at nationals was very close with adams and joshs.