I was tempted to ask Jeff about Josh's FS when I had a chance to chat with him a bit last week. But I felt it's stepping over the line so I stick with more general topics. Plus, Jeff is a professional, I'm sure he won't be giving away details too
2015-16 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating
- Thread starter Mrs. P
- Start date
I was tempted to ask Jeff about Josh's FS when I had a chance to chat with him a bit last week. But I felt it's stepping over the line so I stick with more general topics. Plus, Jeff is a professional, I'm sure he won't be giving away details too
I was tempted to ask Jeff about Josh's FS when I had a chance to chat with him a bit last week. But I felt it's stepping over the line so I stick with more general topics. Plus, Jeff is a professional, I'm sure he won't be giving away details too
Such self-restraint! I am impressed. Not to mention you got to chat with Jeff like its NBD.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
I am excited about Vincent, too - I really enjoyed his free skate. He's still not totally polished, but there is so much to like! I especially enjoyed the moments when he used his hands and face simultaneously to express an emotion. And I loved that he really reacted to dramatic parts like the gun shot physically, with his whole body, in perfect time to the music.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
Heartland from Merriam Webster
The US metaphor with Heartland is always to political, religious, moral, and, yes musical and artistic,conservative preferences.
Like this:
http://i0.wp.com/moronwatch.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/records.jpg
The US metaphor with Heartland is always to political, religious, moral, and, yes musical and artistic,conservative preferences.
Like this:
http://i0.wp.com/moronwatch.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/records.jpg
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2012
A funny thing is that soon after the bat-chasing, Joe Johnson tweeted about a giant spider in the bathtub, but that unpleasant surprise did not rise to the level of rousing his roommate for reinforcement. (So I guess I can't really justify any thoughts of Spiderman
.) I forgot to say earlier that we must keep our fingers crossed that some day Maddie will post a photo of little BatMax as one of her Aaron family throwbacks
.Good luck to Vincent
.Dornbush tweeted about reluctantly withdrawing from the Michael Weiss show this weekend in order to prep for SLC. Leaving no stone unturned :yes:.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
... obviously I don't mean it derogatorily, and certainly wasn't aware of its racial sensitivity past??! I was thinking something along the line of 'cultural' identity and 'taste' of those from the mid west http://wikitravel.org/en/Midwest_(United_States_of_America)
those who built America, buys American, proud of being American, down to earth, listen to Elvis, drink Coca Cola, chills to the R&Bs and Jazz. Laid back, got a big yard where on Sunday afternoons likely BBQ something while chill out with friends and family! It is where Chicago is smack right in the middle and where Jason is from right? The Agricultural, Manufacturing land of America. (ie/ His Cotton Eye Joe program)
When I refer to "US heartland judges" I simply mean US judges who appreciate their own culture more - a sort of patriotic feel good bonus Jason wouldn't have got anywhere else in the world - otherwise how do you explain his PCS? I sure can't! Just like Russian love their Russian composers master works, ie/ Swanlake in my example. Please don't read too much into it, this is crazy!
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TBH, I prefer Tomoki & Paolo; but maybe this is the underdog fan part of me. Probably. But I like them nonetheless. I love their choreography & musicality. I wish Vincent would extend his positions more. But he is doing extremely well for himself.
FWIW:
U.S. Nationals PCS 2015 FS (2014-2015 International Best (not including WTT); International Average).
Farris: 93.12 (84.70; 76.97)
Brown: 92.42 (84.60; 82.78)
Rippon: 92.14 (79.64; 73.60)
Aaron: 80.86 (78.80; 73.10)
Abbott: 88.06 (83.86; 81.54)
U.S. nationals PCS 2015 SP (International Best; International Average)
Abbott: 45.40 (41.52; 41.21)
Brown: 44.46 (40.81; 40.03)
Farris: 43.43 (39.76; 36.61)
Rippon: 40.92 (38.81; 36.83)
Aaron: 39.37 (38.95; 37.12)
Jason did not have the highest PCS in either the SP or the FS.
Josh's inflation in the FS (8.42 from his ISU SB) is higher than Jason's (7.82 from ISU SB) and about the same in the SP (3.67 for Josh; 3.65 for Jason). And the person that got the highest inflation in the SP is not Josh or Jason, but Jeremy (3.88 from ISU SB).
Adam did not benefit from such inflation in the SP (2.11 points), though he sure got it in the FS with that skate of his life (12.5 points). Max did not get such a bonus in EITHER program (2.06; 0.42).
So if you want use the inflation as logic to what USFSA judges prefer: Then the winner isn't Juke or Tristian and Isolde. It's Sam Smith's "Lay Me Down" (hardly Americana..since ya know, he isn't 'Merican) and John Williams' Schindler's List score (there's nothing feel good about a movie about a guy who saved lives from the dredful Holocaust.).
Speaking of Sam Smith, I am listening to this right now (what's up Jeremy Abbott's SOI exhibition): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93ASUImTedo
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- Joined
- Apr 22, 2014
Thank you, Mrs. P! 100% agree.
Also, if I remember correctly, Adam also lost a significant number of points in his SP due to spin and footwork levels. And that's not even accounting for the double downgrade on his quad lutz, which was not performed out of footwork. I remember being annoyed with how both him as well as Tara and Johnny kept saying they felt he was underscored due to both of these reasons.
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
Correct - IIRC, he got a level 2 and a level 1 spin in his SP. (Nitpicking: he didn't get a "double downgrade", he just got a downgrade. Not possible to get a double downgrade, that would be a 3Lz).
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2014
Ah i suppose you're correct - but yes, he got << both in sp and FS, which makes it the base value of a triple Lutz, except then also levied with the negative GOE.... It makes it end up being less than doing a clean triple to begin with =/
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2014
Karne, I love max because he seems like an upstanding and truly hardworking guy. But I don't know if I would go as far to say that his pcs (especially transitions) previously deserved anywhere near the others at nationals. And also, if he had skated entirely clean you would see an even further bonus than what he already got.That stat...Max's numbers are criminal.
I am looking forward to seeing how Timothy Dolensky goes at SLC next week!
That being said.... What really would be criminal in my book is if the judges don't take note on all the improvements he and Phillip Mills have made to his programs *this* season. If that black Swan program doesn't bump up his pcs up a notch this year, I will willingly jump right on board with your.... "
"? [emoji14]
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
Well...tbh, that's his stupid fault. He's old enough to be responsible for knowing the rules of his level, and if he chooses to go for a downgraded jump that he knows he's not going to hit...
I think you have misunderstood me - what I think is criminal is that Max, who is a National Champion, a National bronze medallist, a GP medallist, second-highest-ranked US man after the GP, got nowhere near the same level of PCS boost that the others of the top skaters did. In the short, Josh and Jason both got 4 points boost from their highest (actually, Josh got seven points above his average, as his highest probably comes from 4CC and therefore after Nats). Jeremy also got a 4 point boost. Even Rippon got a two point boost from highest and 4 point boost from average.
Max? He got not even a whole point boost above highest.
Say that again: at US NATIONALS, where EVERYONE ELSE was getting PCS inflation above their international high scores, and Max put in easily his best performance 2nd-mark wise of Footloose, Max got less than a point more.
Even if you take his average, it's still only two points.
THAT is what is criminal.
The FS numbers are even more vile. He got the same amount of boost as a skater who was in pop-city, fell, and whose heart (fairly) wasn't in it. Rippon's boost was an absurd 12 points above his highest and a ridiculous 19 points above his average. Joshua's was 16 points above his average. Jason's, who everyone was complaining about? His was 8 above highest and 10 above average. Max's was only 2 above highest and 7 above average.
Say that again: Rippon, who everyone was stupidly wuzrobbing after the FS, got an inflation nearly THREE TIMES HIGHER than Max did.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
I was going to leave things but since you brought it up. I fail to see the point of this excercise frankly only looking at 2015. Why are you convolute the issue by bringing a mean average in 2015 when you should be looking at 2014? Also bear in mind these stats only tells one story. It doesn't show they were derivatives from what happens in 2014 where Jeremy was kicked to the side steps (he hardly helped himself, but how can it not be demoralizing) in particularly Jason's crowned US#1 status by the federation, and how it affect every other US men's status internationally.
The complaint was specific. It was about 2014 US Nationals where Jason Brown received unprecedented inflation to everyone else and that never came down that lobsided the competition.
Imagine Nam suddenly get MORE PCS at Canadian nationals than Patrick Chan for a life time skate like he did at WC2015.
Imagine Hanyu suddenly got MORE PCS at Japanese nationals than Daisuke for a life time skate that he often do.
Imagine Maxim suddenly got MORE PCS than Plushy at Russia Nationals for a life time skate.
Such things are inconceivable and just don't happen. Jason got more PCS than all of them above.
But... if it were to happen. Nam, Hanyu, Maxim all likely to need some magic spectacular quads, some outrageous out of this world programs, Incredible artistic performance as well as require some major out of the world boosting effort from the federations.
This inflation has an knock on aftermath effect for US Nationals 2015 (just like Sochi had for the Russian skaters) where every skater had to be marked relative to the aftermath super Jason 2014 inflation instead normal Jason 2014 and 2015 season on ISU scene. So of course your mean average doesn't look that bad when everyone is more marked on a relative basis. But when you really think about the balance of PCS and TES needed to mark this sport properly everywhere else in the world, it means the competition now weigh more heavily on the PCS than TES at US Nationals, that make it uncompetitive even if Max bring out 3 quads. Had Jason been marked normally in 2014 and got just slightly more than his usual PCS putting out a fantastic performance Max, Josh, Adam US National 2015 would likely to have a strong chance to beat him and progress on the international scene.
Let me ask you a simple question Mrs P, because even though I do disagree with you sometimes, I respect your opinion.
Do you think Jason Brown's PCS was inflated in 2014? More so than other US men?
Do you think it is fair for other US men? The likes of Jeremy, Josh, Adam, Ricki and alot more...
Do you think it made US men stronger internationally?
That's rather selective. Adam put out one of those FS of a life time you seem to think should be an exceptional to the rule. Why should he be compete against Jason from 2014? Who received +33.37 points from his previous best in the FS alone. +46.79 points overall from previous US nationals Adam was at least two times junior champion, a 4 continents champion, a formal US champion with 6 years of senior work behind him... vs Jason who has nothing to show for it in 2 years internationally except alien class level PCS over reigning worlds champions, world records breakers at their own inflated nationals. Artistically, let's just say I vastly prefer Adam who is a a far more mature and complete skater than Jason and deserve a good few points more in PCS than they had give him.
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- Joined
- Apr 14, 2014
Os168, I really think you've made your point and now are drumming it into the ground. Please can you just agree to disagree on Jason? And I am not even particularly a fan.
I really hope Josh is recovered and able to have a good season. I really loved his recent skating. Will he manage to not get ill? Stay away from the allergens, Josh!
I really hope Josh is recovered and able to have a good season. I really loved his recent skating. Will he manage to not get ill? Stay away from the allergens, Josh!
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2010
Os168, I really think you've made your point and now are drumming it into the ground. Please can you just agree to disagree on Jason? And I am not even particularly a fan.
I really hope Josh is recovered and able to have a good season. I really loved his recent skating. Will he manage to not get ill? Stay away from the allergens, Josh!
Ohh trust me I want to!!!!!!! Contrary to my point about US inflation, I actually said Jason's FS could be one of my fav this season based on the intial practicing clips. Anyways you are right.. i rather discuss other guys, but I thought it is only fair I reply to Mrs P's post.
Honestly, os168, I tried to respond the best I can to each of your posts. And I will try again. But let's let it go after this, OK?
So your point is, I think: Jason received super inflated PCS at National 2014 FS despite having no prior reputation on the international scene that lead to super inflated PCS since despite what you perceive as poor/hokey choreography.
I had to go back and look at some old threads and get a sense of what things were like leading up to Nationals 2014. I refer first to a thread I started in November 2014, The State of the U.S. Men Post-GP
Here's a comment I wrote about Jason in the original post of that thread:
I bold the point above to explain that if it seems that Jason got exceptional PCS/score it's because despite his relative consistency internationally in the last few years, he never brought it to Nationals since 2011. In 2012, he fell three times in the FS and had no 3A. He was 6th after the SP (Think about this; he was in the final group at 2012 Nationals, his second year as a senior nationally, despite not even having a 3A.) , but dropped to 9th after that. In 2013, He fell twice in the FS, including on a 3A and ended up in 8th.
In the score tracker I had created, here was the PCS among hte US Men for both the SP and FS:
It bears noting that Jason, relative to the other U.S. men, was already getting pretty high PCS scores. He was second only to Jeremy in the SP and only to Adam in the FS and by a relative small margin. The margin between him and Jeremy internationally (by season's best) leading up to U.S. Nationals in the FS: 0.26 points, in favor of Jeremy.
At U.S. Nationals, as you pointed out, they were about the same. .08 points, still in favor of Jeremy.
As for inflation: Jason got 13.22 more points; Jeremy got 13.04 points. So Jason got 0.18 more points of PCS inflation at nationals than Jeremy did in the FS.
Now it's hard to compare Jason to Adam because basically Adam had a really poor performance at Nationals. He earned 60+ TES, but got 80 PCS, about two points below what he got for a really solid (silver medal winning) FS at Skate America. So it's not hard to imagine had he turned in the same level of performance (or better) that he showed during the GP that he too would have received 90+ PCS. It's a shame we didn't see that because Adam had the momentum leading up to Nationals with a really strong GP.
Now what about Max? Here's another chart worth looking at:
Max Aaron was No. 1 in TES leading up to Nationals, but buried in the standings --- despite being at Skate America -- in PCS ranking 6th. The differential between his TES and PCS is 17.49 points.
AT U.S. Nationals 2014 , Max had the highest TES of the competition. 93.51. His PCS was 79.98, a difference of 13.53.
And regarding Max compared to Jason in PCS at Nationals (13.36) v. that gap during the GP (7.14)
So going back to your question: Did Jason receive an unprecedented amount of inflation for a lifetime performance relative to the U.S. Men?
Looking at the stats leading to to Nationals, I do not think Jason's PCS scores as far as relative ranking/margin was out of line to how international judges were scoring him leading up that Nationals. The judges were not scoring Jeremy so much higher than Jason in the GP. Jason had a sizable gap on Max Aaron in the GP internationally. The only thing that was different between the GP and Nationals, again, relatively speaking, is that Jason overtook Adam in PCS by a wide margin, but again it's apples to oranges because Jason had a great skate and Adam didn't. And Richard didn't either.
What we saw at U.S. National is a higher magnitude of the patterns that played out internationally leading up that competition. So:
* The margin between Jeremy and Jason was smaller.
* The margin that Jason had on Max was larger.
* Jason scored much higher on PCS than he did internationally that season (but so did Jeremy).
And to answer the other point: Did it make it hard for the other guys internationally afterwards? That's a really hard question to answer IMO. Jason did have the highest average PCS internationally (though Jeremy Abbott had the highest PCS overall) leading up to Nationals in 2015, but again, that's wasn't hard to do considering 1.) That Adam had a poor GP 2.) That Josh had a poor showing at NHK. 3.) Richard Dornbush did pretty well in COC to earn GP bronze, but then did very poorly in France due to getting food poisoning.
It's a new season. I don't think Jason had a huge advantage and his U.S. No. 1 status can only take him so far especially if the likes of Nathan Chen continue to show strong technical performances with solid (if not superior in the eyes of some) program components.)
FWIW regarding that (and with a grain of salt due to differing tech panels):
Jason Brown at 2013 Jr. Worlds earned 154.09 (81.03/73.06) to win the FS at that competition.
Nathan Chen at this year's JGP USA earned 159.63 (88.69/70.94) to win the FS and the competition overall.
Why do I note this?
Jason's score at Jr. Worlds was the highest ever for a junior man until Shoma Uno broke that at 2014-2015 GPF. So while Jason did not have a lot of senior international experience, he DID have a decent reputation among judges from a solid junior career that including two Jr. World medals (and a record breaking FS) and a JGPF title. I believe that his international reputation did proceed Jason. I don't think Jason was in the picture at all in USFSA because of hte lack of quad, but his successes leading up to that point eventually became too hard to ignore and when he turned in that Riverdance performance they had reacted (maybe perhaps a bit trigger happy on the +GOEs).
Nathan's score while not breaking a record, is still the second highest currently. I think it's clear that international judges think very highly of Chen and I believe that if he turns in a similar performance, the U.S. judges will respond in a similar matter, just like they did with Jason.
So for those of you who don't want to bother to read my ramblings all this can be summed up by saying The USFSA judging patterns, which clearly inflated, LAG behind that of international judging patterns, relatively speaking.
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