2016-2017 Grand Prix selections

[Ice Dance]

Do you read what excatly did I write? Every year SD is different for seniors and juniors. That's no news That doesn't prevent some teams from competing on both levels.

Both couples came from countries with a berth at Europeans and/or Worlds that they couldn't fill with a more competitive team. Neither team was trying to establish themselves at home, and set themselves up for a competitive future, against the best teams in the World, with an SD they had not had a full season to train. I'm not saying McNamara & Carpenter couldn't do it. But it's not the same thing. (Neither was it the same for them as for Lee & Kam, the Australians, nor the Chinese--who did the same thing as the Poles and Nazarova & Nikitin had done the past season because their countries didn't have enough teams to fill their slots at 4CCs). In fact, I worried a bit for Lee & Kam because they do have competition at home and had to 1. Go to their Nationals with a new SD and get slated as #3. and 2. then go into 4CC's that way. (They were scored like a team #3 at 4CCs, but Kim & Minov imploded and lost to them overall and L&K met the FD Worlds minimum, so in the end, I'd say it wound up working out well for them. It also pumped up their start order spot at Junior Worlds). Anyway, the point is that the dance teams who do both seniors & juniors in the same season do it because they have a berth at a major senior international that their country needs them to fill. None of those teams would have cracked the final flight at U.S. Nationals.

 

[ice coverage]

Even if M/C wanted to compete at both the Junior and Senior level this year, they couldn't do it. One of the new rules passed by the ISU Congress in June is that if you do a Junior ISU event, you can't do a Senior ISU event during the same season or vice versa (some are calling it the Polina Edmunds rule because she did the Junior Grand Prix and then got named to the Olympic team). Under the new rule, skaters pretty much have to declare themselves Juniors or Seniors and stick with that through the rest of the season, at least at ISU events. ...

You are misrepresenting the new rule.

The new rule is that TES minimums for Senior ISU championships must be earned at senior comps.

(And still in effect is the previous rule that TES minimums for Junior Worlds must be earned at junior comps.)

Skaters competing in JGPs are allowed to compete as Seniors in the Challenger series.
So it is possible for them to earn TES minimums both for Junior Worlds and for Senior ISU championships.

 

[ice coverage]

... The International Olympic Committee (IOC) has issued an interim order, steasking that its winter sports governing bodies “freeze their preparation for major events in Russia” and find host cities in other countries, due the Russian doping scandal. The order includes moving the Cup of Russia Grand Prix event scheduled for November to another country. ...

To be clear: The IOC statement does not specify Rostelecom (or any other events in any sport) by name.

Remains to be seen whether the ISU can make a persuasive argument that the IOC statement should not apply to Rostelecom.

 

[mcq]

Even if M/C wanted to compete at both the Junior and Senior level this year, they couldn't do it. One of the new rules passed by the ISU Congress in June is that if you do a Junior ISU event, you can't do a Senior ISU event during the same season or vice versa (some are calling it the Polina Edmunds rule because she did the Junior Grand Prix and then got named to the Olympic team). Under the new rule, skaters pretty much have to declare themselves Juniors or Seniors and stick with that through the rest of the season, at least at ISU events.

M/C could do Seniors at Nationals but there doesn't seem to be much point to doing that if they can't complete at a Senior ISU event.

I am confused. Elizabet tursynbaeva competed at both senior and junior worlds last season + do 2 senior GPs. I think skaters are only not allowed to do both junior and senior GPs. They are still allowed to compete at junior worlds as long as they haven't medaled at senior if I recalled correctly.

 

[Ice Dance]

I am confused. Elizabet tursynbaeva competed at both senior and junior worlds last season + do 2 senior GPs. I think skaters are only not allowed to do both junior and senior GPs. They are still allowed to compete at junior worlds as long as they haven't medaled at senior if I recalled correctly.

Yes, see ice coverage's post #342. Athletes can compete in both.

The rule that has changed is that junior athletes can no longer use their scores in junior competition in order to earn minimum TES to compete at major senior international events. This means junior dance teams on the JGP must go to a senior B event prior to Europeans/Worlds/4CCs, which wasn't the case last season. And they will have to earn that minimum TES with a senior pattern that they aren't competing during their regular junior season. It's going to make the transition into seniors even more difficult for some teams. That minimum Worlds TES in the SD is a killer to get for a lot of senior teams.

 

[mcq]

Yes, see ice coverage's post #342. Athletes can compete in both.

The rule that has changed is that junior athletes can no longer use their scores in junior competition in order to earn minimum TES to compete at major senior international events. This means junior dance teams on the JGP must go to a senior B event prior to Europeans/Worlds/4CCs, which wasn't the case last season. And they will have to earn that minimum TES with a senior pattern that they aren't competing during their regular junior season. It's going to make the transition into seniors even more difficult for some teams. That minimum Worlds TES in the SD is a killer to get for a lot of senior teams.

Ah thanks for the explanation. But my understanding is that it doesn't work vice versa right? Tursynbaeva did not compete in any junior event this season aside of junior world or youth olympic games so I am assuming using the senior TES to qualify for junior world is acceptable but not the other way around?

 

[ice coverage]

Ah thanks for the explanation. But my understanding is that it doesn't work vice versa right? Tursynbaeva did not compete in any junior event this season aside of junior world or youth olympic games so I am assuming using the senior TES to qualify for junior world is acceptable but not the other way around?

Scores from Senior comps are not acceptable for meeting TES minimums for Junior Worlds.

But scores from the preceding season as well as the current season count for TES minimums, IIRC.

 

[grotesm1]

Here's what the announcement about the ISU General Congress decision said:

The required Minimum Technical Elements Score for the Short Program/Short Dance and the Free Skating/Free Dance to participate in Senior ISU Championships (ISU European Figure
Skating Championships, ISU Four Continents Figure Skating Championships and ISU World Figure Skating Championships) can only be obtained in Senior International Competitions. Likewise, the required Minimum Technical Elements Score for the Short Program/Short Dance and the Free Skating/Free Dance segment to participate in the ISU World Junior Figure Skating Championships can only be obtained in International Junior Competitions.

I interpreted the above to mean that skaters who did the Junior Grand Prix couldn't compete in Senior events or vice versa, but my interpretation could be wrong. But it does prevent countries from sending Senior skaters who are age eligible to Junior Worlds unless they competed in an event as a Junior to get a minimum TES. The smaller Federations who have only a couple of skaters might enter skaters in both Junior and Senior Grand Prix or other ISU events, I guess, but I can't see the major Federations doing that. I think the rule is designed to prevent the major Federations from sending age-eligible Senior skaters to Junior Worlds as a "consolation prize" and/or to ensure the Federation gets three spots at Junior Worlds for next year.

 

[Ice Dance]

You are misrepresenting the new rule.
The new rule is that TES minimums for Senior ISU championships must be earned at senior comps.

I'm guessing this is retroactive so the teams who earned the minimum TES this season in junior competition have to re-earn it this year in seniors. Correct? (While otherwise, they would have been able to wait until next season in order to have to meet it again?) This is actually relevant in dance because there are at least a couple teams--Nazarova & Nikitin and Kim & Minov--who were at Worlds this year that I'm fairly certain never met their minimum TES this season. N&N even qualified for the free dance at Worlds and still didn't meet the minimum TES there.

So teams like Bent & Razgulajevs and Lee & Kam, who met the minimum TES in the SD in junior events last season, now have this hurdle to cross.

 

[ice coverage]

... The smaller Federations who have only a couple of skaters might enter skaters in both Junior and Senior Grand Prix or other ISU events, I guess, but I can't see the major Federations doing that. ...

BTW, there is a rule (which is not new) that skaters are not allowed to compete both in the Junior Grand Prix series and the Senior Grand Prix series.

(But as discussed, competing at both Junior Worlds and at Senior ISU championships will continue to be possible -- as long as the new limitation [re senior scores for TES minimums for Senior ISU championships] is met.)

 

[chuckm]

Tursynbaeva had her previous 2015 JW score that met the TES minimum so she didn't have to do a junior event in order to go to 2016 JW.

OTOH, Tyler Pierce DID have to do a junior event because her 2015 JW score did not meet the TES minimum. She did a B junior event before JW 2016 to qualify her for the event.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Yes, the Shibs had great success in 2011. But again. Would they have been given that chance today? Would they have gotten in at Skate America in 2012 against the field we have in the U.S. right now?

I'm not sure why you keep talking about the field and Grand Prix events. McNamara/Carpenter would have received 2 Senior Grand Prix events this season if they went Senior and their placements at those events would give them 2 events again next year, the Olympic year.

Shibutani/Shibutani were able to be the #2 ranked American team in 2011 because they were simply better than the competition. Why could McNamara/Carpenter, and others, not do the same? Yes the U.S. currently has 3 strong teams, but other teams could simply exceed them, at least one of them, in the Olympic season. To me the best chance of making that happen would be actually competing in Seniors to get the experience (and judge recognition). What's the point in just sitting back?

Who knows, maybe by 2018 Nationals we could have seen McNamara/Carpenter and Parsons/Parsons both ascend to astonishing levels, making all of the current U.S. teams look outdated in comparison. It comes down to putting the work in and making it happen, assuming the talent and guidance is there. Doesn't matter what the competition is. You just have to work on heightening your own level. Without the necessary experience, though, it won't happen.

 

[Ice Dance]

What's the point in just sitting back?

They aren't "just sitting back." They're competing a full season. Starting this month at Lake Placid, in fact. (Perhaps they are practicing how to defend a title. A lot of senior athletes would tell you it is harder than the chase).

In all seriousness, I don't know what their reasoning is for waiting to move up to seniors. Perhaps you should ask them. Perhaps Lorraine would like to graduate high school before dedicating all the time and money that will be required to skate as a senior team. The Wheaton article posted today comes right out and says that M&C may be in the mix for "2022." I don't think 2018 is their main goal, any more than podiuming in 2011 was the Shibs' main goal. Dance is about the long haul.

Pretending the field doesn't matter in ice dance is naive. It's not the be-all-and-end-all. But there is nothing "simple" about passing a dance team with international accolades. Find me ONE dance team who thinks it is! We just watched half the Canadian field dissolve because teams don't believe they can qualify for the Olympics. After the Shibs won that bronze in 2011, it seemed like every other team in the U.S. field was looking for a new partner. The Shibutanis are SPECIAL. But even they have been stuck behind Evan most of their careers. It's very, very tough to prove yourself in dance. It usually takes longer. Not always. But often. And there's beauty in that aspect of the discipline. Much of what makes dance great is how well these teams know each other. How well they move together. And their ability to tell a mature story on the ice.

I think M&C have the potential for a successful senior dance career. I would have liked to see them move up now, but they aren't. It doesn't change my mind. It's incredibly rare for a junior dance team to stay together long enough to have a full career. I would never place money on a team I fell in love with in juniors staying together. The Shibs and Lynn & Logan are the only teams I have seen live in junior competition that have done so. But I like M&C. I hope they will be among the next.

 

[uhh]

I'm not sure why you keep talking about the field and Grand Prix events. McNamara/Carpenter would have received 2 Senior Grand Prix events this season if they went Senior and their placements at those events would give them 2 events again next year, the Olympic year.

You are completely wrong on how this works. They would have only been guaranteed one GP event this year as the Junior World Champions (but would have likely got 2 with the expansion of the GP back to 10 teams per event.) Placement on the senior GP does nothing to guarantee events for the following year. The only way they would have been guaranteed 2 next year would be by finishing in the top 10 at Senior Worlds.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Placement on the senior GP does nothing to guarantee events for the following year. The only way they would have been guaranteed 2 next year would be by finishing in the top 10 at Senior Worlds.

Funny then how so many teams get 2 Grand Prix events without placing top 10 at Worlds. Placement in the GP definitely is taken into consideration and of course Season's Best scores.

Teams like McNamara/Carpenter are not left out of getting 2 spots. It may not be "guaranteed" in the selection rules, but people know what's up.

 

[tulosai]

Funny then how so many teams get 2 Grand Prix events without placing top 10 at Worlds. Placement in the GP definitely is taken into consideration and of course Season's Best scores.

Teams like McNamara/Carpenter are not left out of getting 2 spots. It may not be "guaranteed" in the selection rules, but people know what's up.

You are wrong, it's not. The only things taken into consideration for GPs are

1. World Championships ranking
2. World Rankings (top 24 best each guaranteed 1 spot)
3. Season's best list (top 24 best each guaranteed 1 spot, then any remaining GP spots continue to be filled from this list)

Self evidently, yes, if you do well on the GP you are likely to get onto the top 24 SB list (and often also the WR one), but it's irrelevant that this happened on the GP. One could just as easily get a high score at a challenger event and get 2 spots that way.

 

[chuckm]

It all depends on how much you are pushed by your federation. Artur Dmitriev skated well at ONE event and got a high score which put him in the top 24 on the SB list (it was a Challenger event) but the rest of his season was a bust. He was 10th at Nationals and didn't make it to Euros or Worlds. He is #50 WR. Then again Artur has a Dad who's won two OGMs....

 

[Blades of Passion]

You are wrong, it's not. The only things taken into consideration for GPs are

1. World Championships ranking
2. World Rankings (top 24 best each guaranteed 1 spot)
3. Season's best list (top 24 best each guaranteed 1 spot, then any remaining GP spots continue to be filled from this list)

World rankings use Grand Prix placements...................................

 

[Jammers]

I'm not sure why you keep talking about the field and Grand Prix events. McNamara/Carpenter would have received 2 Senior Grand Prix events this season if they went Senior and their placements at those events would give them 2 events again next year, the Olympic year.

Shibutani/Shibutani were able to be the #2 ranked American team in 2011 because they were simply better than the competition. Why could McNamara/Carpenter, and others, not do the same? Yes the U.S. currently has 3 strong teams, but other teams could simply exceed them, at least one of them, in the Olympic season. To me the best chance of making that happen would be actually competing in Seniors to get the experience (and judge recognition). What's the point in just sitting back?

Who knows, maybe by 2018 Nationals we could have seen McNamara/Carpenter and Parsons/Parsons both ascend to astonishing levels, making all of the current U.S. teams look outdated in comparison. It comes down to putting the work in and making it happen, assuming the talent and guidance is there. Doesn't matter what the competition is. You just have to work on heightening your own level. Without the necessary experience, though, it won't happen.

Big difference with the Shibs in 2011 is that the number 2,3 and 4 US Ice Dance teams from 2010 either retired or were out with injuries which left the number 2 spot up for grabs with Chock/Zuerlein and the Hubbells who were not much stronger then say a team like Cannuscio/McManus.

 

[chuckm]

In many ways, ice dancing is not as predictable as some may think it can be, and success at the junior level doesn't necessarily predict ongoing success at the senior level.

In 2013-2014, both M/C and PP made the JGPF, and M/C medaled, but in 2014-2015, neither team made the JGPF. They were supplanted by two Canadian teams who later finished 5th and 6th at Worlds 2015, while M/C won silver and PP were 4th. So it is not even a sure thing that the two US teams will be on top in the coming season at the junior level: they have a target on their backs, and it's easier to pursue than to be the pursued.

The Russian team of Yanovskaya / Mozgov won everything in sight for two junior seasons (except JW 2014, which was won by Hawayek / Baker) but bombed their freshman year on the GP and now they have split.