2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

[RABID]

Speaking of our young skaters, how is Starr looking these days? If Mirai and Ashley retire, and with Gracie done, that leaves a big void of former champions out of the game. I have no idea what's going on with Polina but, she seems like she might be done as well.

Karen has so much potential but she doesn't compete well. If Bradie were changing coaches I'd be more hopeful but, if she doesn't get better choreography and packaging, she's going to be a 1 hit wonder.

I used to have such high hopes for Polina, so much so that I used to visit her instagram channel. But it is because of that that I figured I had to move on. I also follow Ashima Shiraishi on Instagram (rock climbing phenom) and the difference between her and Polina is that though Ashima mixes in stuff happening in her teenage life mostly she is about letting her fans in on what is happening with her and rock climbing. Polina on the other hand seems to be all about "spreading her wings" as it pertains to being a teenager and very little about her and her skating.
Shame really because she has the tools and really just needs to do the work. I could be wrong and I hope I am but I don't think so...

 

[temadd]

About Alysa, she did get one UR call but the progress she's made in a little over a year on her jumps is tremendous. As she grows it seems to only be helping her with her jumps instead of the opposite, which is nice. Her coach stated after nationals that she is aware of what her Japanese and Russian rivals on the JGP are doing(which is evident in her backloading approach. Only one jump in first half!) and they will work to to gain a 3a or 4sal before she turns eligible for the JGP. I think that is a bit unlikely but who knows. Either way, I am very excited to see what Alysa accomplishes in her career. She is amazing!

Wait til Alysa gets through a growth spurt, then I'll be excited

 

[klutzy]

I used to have such high hopes for Polina, so much so that I used to visit her instagram channel. But it is because of that that I figured I had to move on. I also follow Ashima Shiraishi on Instagram (rock climbing phenom) and the difference between her and Polina is that though Ashima mixes in stuff happening in her teenage life mostly she is about letting her fans in on what is happening with her and rock climbing. Polina on the other hand seems to be all about "spreading her wings" as it pertains to being a teenager and very little about her and her skating.
Shame really because she has the tools and really just needs to do the work. I could be wrong and I hope I am but I don't think so...

I think Polina is kind of a private person. She didn't tip her hand at all on her skating on Instagram, but competed throughout the last season. She started out in really rough shape at the beginning of the season, but got better each competition. She did pull out of the FS at Nationals though--and I think the SL guy was right in that she basically skated the short because Nationals was in her home town. The short, though, was lovely.

The issue with Polina isn't a lack of ambition--it's the jumps--she and Christie Ness, who was coaching her, say, and I see no reason not to believe this, that she gets shooting pains in her foot if she doesn't do her toe jumps correctly--and those are the jumps she swapped out from her free. In an interview she gave to her college newspaper, she said her plan is to keep competing. She is, after all, someone who was very, very close to winning the U.S. championship in 2016 and probably would have done well at Worlds. I suspect she'd have been National Champion instead of Karen Chen and we'd have been talking about rock-solid Polina at the Olympics and how much she'd be pinged for URs.

Which is my way of saying that Polina's got to know this--and it's really a matter of whether she can heal and work enough--a lot of the college/sorority stuff IMO is a way of compensating for the fact she's had to limit what she could do as a skater.

Re: Alysa Liu, Starr Andrews--can we at least let these girls get through adolescence before we anoint them the next big thing? Please? Let Alysa develop without the hopes of the entire skating federation and fandom on her shoulders. Starr's wonderfully charismatic, but let her focus on basic skating skills and getting jump combos before we count on her winning back our international reputation.

And how about extending some support for Bradie--who made an astonishing run from ninth at last year's nationals to ninth at this year's Olympics. Why is she now being dismissed as a lost cause because she's not elegant like Carolina Kostner who's been on the international skating scene since Bradie was four.

No, we're not churning out super 15-year-olds like Russia, but I don't think we have to--there's nothing superhuman about Medvedeva or Zagitova's techniques. They're simply skating in a way that maximizes their point totals (And that's not a dis--that's how you win.) That's not impossible. As for consistency, it would help if we (fans and fed) didn't make such an effin' big deal over finding the latest skating heroine. It's probably not an accident that the discipline where we're strongest, ice dancing, is the one where most couples climb up slowly through the ranks. No one looks at novice ice dancers and hopes they'll save ice dancing at the next Olympics. We look at who's skating now and at the younger senior couples.

 

[frida80]

I think Polina is kind of a private person. She didn't tip her hand at all on her skating on Instagram, but competed throughout the last season. She started out in really rough shape at the beginning of the season, but got better each competition. She did pull out of the FS at Nationals though--and I think the SL guy was right in that she basically skated the short because Nationals was in her home town. The short, though, was lovely.

The issue with Polina isn't a lack of ambition--it's the jumps--she and Christie Ness, who was coaching her, say, and I see no reason not to believe this, that she gets shooting pains in her foot if she doesn't do her toe jumps correctly--and those are the jumps she swapped out from her free. In an interview she gave to her college newspaper, she said her plan is to keep competing. She is, after all, someone who was very, very close to winning the U.S. championship in 2016 and probably would have done well at Worlds. I suspect she'd have been National Champion instead of Karen Chen and we'd have been talking about rock-solid Polina at the Olympics and how much she'd be pinged for URs.

Which is my way of saying that Polina's got to know this--and it's really a matter of whether she can heal and work enough--a lot of the college/sorority stuff IMO is a way of compensating for the fact she's had to limit what she could do as a skater.

Re: Alysa Liu, Starr Andrews--can we at least let these girls get through adolescence before we anoint them the next big thing? Please? Let Alysa develop without the hopes of the entire skating federation and fandom on her shoulders. Starr's wonderfully charismatic, but let her focus on basic skating skills and getting jump combos before we count on her winning back our international reputation.

And how about extending some support for Bradie--who made an astonishing run from ninth at last year's nationals to ninth at this year's Olympics. Why is she now being dismissed as a lost cause because she's not elegant like Carolina Kostner who's been on the international skating scene since Bradie was four.

No, we're not churning out super 15-year-olds like Russia, but I don't think we have to--there's nothing superhuman about Medvedeva or Zagitova's techniques. They're simply skating in a way that maximizes their point totals (And that's not a dis--that's how you win.) That's not impossible. As for consistency, it would help if we (fans and fed) didn't make such an effin' big deal over finding the latest skating heroine. It's probably not an accident that the discipline where we're strongest, ice dancing, is the one where most couples climb up slowly through the ranks. No one looks at novice ice dancers and hopes they'll save ice dancing at the next Olympics. We look at who's skating now and at the younger senior couples.

THIS!

This is the biggest competition she’s every done, and all of a sudden we’re throwing her away? Give her time to develop as a winner. She is still really consistent and only needs more experience and a good choreography and she’ll be able to contend.

People just have no patience to allow skaters become winners and expect them to come ready made right out the box. It’s why I want Alyssa and Starr to stay out of the spot light as long as possible. This is just vicious.

 

[Erin9]

THIS!

This is the biggest competition she’s every done, and all of a sudden we’re throwing her away? Give her time to develop as a winner. She is still really consistent and only needs more experience and a good choreography and she’ll be able to contend.

People just have no patients to allow skaters become winners and expect them to come ready made right out the box. It’s why I want Alyssa and Starr to stay out of the spot light as long as possible. This is just vicious.

Who is throwing Bradie away?

 

[frida80]

Who is throwing Bradie away?

Clearly most US fans has lost faith in the current US team. Watching Scott Hamilton throw US ladies under the bus is not s good day.

 

[skatesofgold]

Clearly most US fans has lost faith in the current US team. Watching Scott Hamilton throw US ladies under the bus is not s good day.

Okay, if USA is going to go the slow route and not the quick route, like Russia, how can the USA be more like Canada or Carolina? That's my only question. Clearly, Russia's way of doing things isn't the only way, looking at the bronze medalists. I don't want to lose faith.

 

[concorde]

The commentators mentioned that Russia introduced a bonus scoring system immediately after Vancouver and the results became apparent in the next quad.
The US introduced the same system about 3 years ago. I am confident we will see the results of that bonus system in Bejing.

 

[concorde]

Her toeloop is obviously cheated, she spins all the way around to where she started the combo before leaving the ice. hwell:

That is worrisome for a variety of reasons. First - she is so tiny you have to question if the puberty monster will be kind to her. But even worse, the toeloop is one of the two jumps a skater needs for a triple-triple and the toe is the "easier" of the two. If she is having problems now . . .

I think to wait a couple of years and then check in.

 

[frida80]

Okay, if USA is going to go the slow route and not the quick route, like Russia, how can the USA be more like Canada or Carolina? That's my only question. Clearly, Russia's way of doing things isn't the only way, looking at the bronze medalists. I don't want to lose faith.

I posted a dissertation length post about what I think could fix US ladies figure skating. It’ll take me a while to find it, but I’ll post it again.

 

[topaz emerald]

Her toeloop is obviously cheated, she spins all the way around to where she started the combo before leaving the ice. hwell:

The program is a startling example of why the backloading rule needs to be changed. She copies Yu-Na Kim's Les Mis and then tries to move most of the jumps to later in the program, and look at how cluttered and ineffective the choreography becomes as a result. The build up and character and emotion are lost. Not what skating should be. She's very talented though, hopefully she will be guided well and blossom into a mature and interesting skater with solid jumps.

then please give me an example of someone who has a perfect toeloop. She copies Yu Na kims' Les Miserables? really? because the music cut is DIFFERENT and her choreography is DIFFERENT. Her choreography is lovely, not cluttered.....she does opening lyrical movement into her opening 2axel, does a spin, then proceeds to skate her step sequence by using the whole rink from one end to the next, ends it with a spin, now halfway mark is where she adds in all her jumps with two combos (original layout, not seen in her novice comp in Hague) and her jumps have breathing space from one to the next, with transitions. You are obviously not a fan of backloading, and I'm not really either, but if you want to rise to the top, you have to be able to challenge the top girls, and backloading is obviously what they are doing.....however having said this, I am not sure Alysa will be rewarded in backloading and PC marks as we have seen in her last international competition in Hague....The build up and character and emotion are lost??? She is 12 years old and in my opinion, she did a great job performing to this piece of music. Not what skating should be? What teen at her age blows you away right now? She have lovely arms and moves to note of the music with her arms, she even has subtle head movements.

The only thing I agree with you is that this young girl is talented. And I hope she survives puberty. The american girls do not seem to delay their puberty like the Japanese,russian and koreans. Maybe it's just our diet lol. But I hope she keeps her body lean but strong.

 

[frida80]

Here’s my old post! These are all the suggestions I had to improve ladies figure skating. And now I have a few more suggestions I’ll ask the list later.

THe problem is not money. The problem is we are now a nation that produces participants and not competitors. It starts very early and it will take a long time to change. I'll explain.

THere is a huge difference between ladies and men's skating. With men's you can outscore people by learning quads. You can't do that in ladies skating. Or at least women don't do that. Therefore, they learn their triples and then they immediately start learning how to be more artistic because that's what gets you on top of the US podium. So many politics keep potential ladies from even getting close to the podium. So we are stuck with a few good skaters that aren't really challenged at the top because ladies that could more technically proficient are artificially downplayed by the tech panel.

I've followed younger skaters for years. At Juvenile, Intermediate, Novice, and Junior. I find at Juvenile there's more competition. No one is allowed to skate with higher than a 2A so girl's field is very deep at this level. Club competitions need qualifying rounds to narrow the fields down. There are always large amounts of girls to compete against at club competition. So by nationals, you are seeing very polished girls who have deliberately developed components and spins and have the mental game needed to compete.

After that the field gets smaller. Most kids will never manage a 2A, so they drop out or just skate occasionally for fun. The ones that do win are the ones that consistently land their basic triples the most. Our tech controllers at both club and national qualifying comps are lax, so many girls get by with underrotations that would never fly internationally. By juniors you wind up with two types of winners, the ones that skate clean or the ones that are the most artistic. It's only recently that triple triples seem to be a priority for some coaches. But unfortunately, that's not enough. Audrey Shin is super talented, but her under rotations are terrible. She often loses at domestic competitions because she can't rotate the jumps. Naturally, internationally that means she got hammered by the tech panel there. However, she is a second highest scoring junior lady domestically! Hannah, how outscored her in Asian open has only gotten a 152 to Audrey's 162.

There are so many problems, but I feel like many of them could be solved by a few moves.

1. Better tech controllers.

Last year, watching Brynne at Skate Detroit I saw underrotations on all of her jumps, but she didn't get called on any of them. Internationally, she got called. At the very least, at monitored competitions the tech controllers need to be at international level harshness. The < have to stop.

2. More serious competition.

Especially for Novice and Juniors, where most girls have move on. Here is when you have small competitions where it's obvious that one girl is going to win, no question. It's not because she's super talented, but because she just has the highest technical content so no one else can compete against her. So it's like winning by default. Weak competitions make weak competitors. Girl's like this will win despite being inconsistent, having falls, poor spins, or underrotations. I think US figure skating needs to make more of an effort to get novice and junior skaters in competitors with girls at their technical level. There are the monitored competitions like Skate Detroit and GF. However, I think if there was some sort of incentive more higher level ladies would compete.

For example, I would require all ladies to skate at least 3 monitored competitions to go to international competitions. Include novices in this equation. Tell them that the highest scoring 5 of each level will qualify to be sent either to the JGP or smaller international comps for juniors and novices. Kids go nuts for their Team USA jacket, so this is a definite draw. Watching Bradie was a perfect case study. She competed in three competitions from May to August. She not only won each of them, but did it with tough competition in Philly Intl. I like that method of choosing for SA and think it should be employed for all international comps that USFS can select their skaters for.

3. Do a qualifying competition for all JGP participants.

I know I just suggested an average of competitions for JGP slots, but bare with me. I feel like there needs to be one competition that puts a lot of pressure on these girls early. Like a nationals but earlier. I feel like often JGP competitors are fully prepared. If you look at Emily on the JGP and then at Junior nationals, you see a vastly improved skater. If they knew by August 7th, there was a qualifying competition, that 15 girls would be there vying for just 7 slots, that would really up the game. I already see a lot of jumping talent already. It's mostly training them to land them every time. That's not going to happen if there isn't something to lose. If you had to go to three qualifying competitions and score high and then this competition and basically win, that I feel would push girls to develop more competitive skills.

4. Send ladies to more difficult international competitions.

Last year, I thought it was a big step forward to send high level juniors to international comps. However, I think they were all easy comps. It's good to get their feet wet, but they needed more. They needed to see that they aren't really competitive with other ladies internationally. We need to send girls to competitions where we know there will be Russians, Japanese, and Koreans competing. US girls aren't the best, but they are better than most of the world. Sending them to some competitions is the same as giving them a participation trophy in a JGP event. The have to be challenged and want to rise to the occasion.

I did a search and found that they are monitoring girls from lower levels early. They send in regular reports and give suggestions. But you can't micromanage a girl into becoming a good competitor. Being a good competitor comes from learning how to compete. Knowing that there are ladies around you that are just as good if not better and having the mind set not only not let that phase you but also the burning desire to do you best to beat them anyway. And then the mental coolness to nail those programs in spite of the nerves, pressure, and intensity of competition.

I think what made Nathan such a good competitor is because as a junior he didn't have a consistent 3A or Quads, so he needed to work on his components and consistency with the elements that he did have. It's what are ladies have to learn as children if they ever want to win as adults.


Sorry for being so long winded. Yikes...

 

[Cindy1983]

Most of my critcism is of the US media (not a fan) and The Powers That Be in the Federation (also not a fan).

The comments Karen and Marai made about needing thier moms. Being first generation immigrant families. This makes for great stories, but also sets up cultural lost in translations. Asian cultures tend to be more collectivist. This is especially true of families where children often live wirh, not just thier immediate, but also extended family, especially outside of cities. For good or ill, the American media is a product of American culture which stresses independence and individuality. What I'm saying is that a cultural lost in translation may have happened.

I said that I hate the US media. I feel it was them that threw our girls under the bus. I read an article about best moments of the Olympics. They talked about Marai's TE triple axel. It was like they couldn't play up the accomplishment because it didn't measure up to what they thought it should be. They make observations about the qualifiers before the accomplishment and the fact that 'nobody cares about the TE'. It was the most backhanded thing I ever read. It made me wonder if the twenty-four hour gap before the free skate allowed the negative media to get into their heads.

(On a side note I'm not ruling out Marai being injured after the hard fall in the short. She FOUGHT with her blood, sweat and tears - good old fasioned hard work -- to get back to the Olympics so I understand he not wanting to let the moment pass her by.)

The more I think about it; the more convinced I am that TPTB chose Karen over Ashley to make a point to Ashley. I go into what I think that point is in another post. Here I'll suffice it to say that human nature dictates that no one likes to be called out on thier crap -- especially when the person doing it is spot on most of the time (although sometimes I disagree with HOW she goes about doing it). In this context, her reaction seems less like someone throwing a hissy fit and more like someone with a genuine bone to pick with TPTB. If, deep down, Karen either knew this or figured it out, what would it do to her confidence? Pitting one skater against another is NEVER right or healthy.

As for Bradie, I hope she can bounce back and not internalize the negative media. The US media is BRUTAL -- especially when athletes and other public figures fail.

The issue with the US ladies has NEVER BEEN THIER TALENTS OR ABILITIES, BUT THIER CONFIDENCE. All the talent in the world means nothing if you have no confidence to back it up. Case in point, Gracie Gold had all the talent to compete with the best, but never felt WORTHY of doing so. This recipe for failure became a self-fulfilling prophecy. The girl with the right mix of talent, coaching / packaging and confidence will break the US out of the doldrums for good.

In the profile on Bradie, she said she enjoys teaching younger skaters. A part of that is mentorship. They should put older skaters that stick around in mentorship roles. While some rivalry is healthy, you need a shared vision as well. Older skater mentoring younger skaters through the ranks would foster a shared vision. An older skater would view a younger skater as a threat, but, if she MENTORS that same skater, they would be united in shared vision and an ally. It's harder to be threatened by somone you mentor. Recently the dark side of the nationalized gymnastics system was put on display, but the posititive that came out of it was ignored. It united coaches and athletes from vastly different background and parts of the country in a shared vision. That is what made it successful.

 

[Blades of Passion]

then please give me an example of someone who has a perfect toeloop. She copies Yu Na kims' Les Miserables? really? because the music cut is DIFFERENT and her choreography is DIFFERENT. Her choreography is lovely, not cluttered

The opening music is the same as Yu-Na's, as is the dress, so the homage is very apparent to me. As for an example of perfect toeloop technique, well there again we can look to Yu-Na. I just disagree very much about the choreography/interpretation being great; it's not Alysa Liu's fault that this program was created for her to try and game the current rules, but looking at the program in comparison to Yu-Na's, it's very clear example to me of exactly how backloading damages the choreography and interpretation of a program. Yes there are some nice arm gestures here and there in Alysa's program, but they fail to have meaning, the whole does not become more than the sum of the parts.

The build up and character and emotion are lost??? She is 12 years old and in my opinion, she did a great job performing to this piece of music. Not what skating should be? What teen at her age blows you away right now?

Alysa Liu is 12 yes, but just speaking of the development of a skater, this direction she is currently being pushed in is not what I'd like to see. The rules need to be changed, so that the skaters can be taught to develop in other ways. Here is Michelle Kwan at 12 years old - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htevMS0Vnyc - I would say that program displays more personality, attention to performance, and musicality than what is seen coming from anyone in the Eteri school, an approach that is now being widely copied.

 

[russianfan]

i've just realized that US ladies placed in exactly the same order at Olympics as they did at Nationals

 

[topaz emerald]

The opening music is the same as Yu-Na's, as is the dress, so the homage is very apparent to me. As for an example of perfect toeloop technique, well there again we can look to Yu-Na. I just disagree very much about the choreography/interpretation being great; it's not Alysa Liu's fault that this program was created for her to try and game the current rules, but looking at the program in comparison to Yu-Na's, it's very clear example to me of exactly how backloading damages the choreography and interpretation of a program. Yes there are some nice arm gestures here and there in Alysa's program, but they fail to have meaning, the whole does not become more than the sum of the parts.



Alysa Liu is 12 yes, but just speaking of the development of a skater, this direction she is currently being pushed in is not what I'd like to see. The rules need to be changed, so that the skaters can be taught to develop in other ways. Here is Michelle Kwan at 12 years old - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htevMS0Vnyc - I would say that program displays more personality, attention to performance, and musicality than what is seen coming from anyone in the Eteri school, an approach that is now being widely copied.

Good morning.......oh come on, blades of passion, you can do better than this. I love MK but she does not set the standard for artistry, and here in this performance, she is doing so many crossovers from one jumping pass to the next, and her Artistry and interpretation is obviously not as polished as she was in her prime. The only difference between her and Alysa at 12 years old is that Michelle definitely looks more mature physically. I do not like backloading either but she has to do what is competitive right now. FYI, she is from my hometown so I have a soft spot for her, and her father says that she is training the three axle and quads as well. However I think it is smart that she doesn't push herself too hard and I think her father is very aware of this.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Is there a thread started about what the US ladies can do over the summer to improve? That’s definitely interesting conversation. My suggestions are:

Karen: switch coaches immediately and see a jump specialist

Mariah: a slam dunk program that suits to a T, and CONSISTENCY/CONFIDENCE

Starr: a coaching change and a master class in SS

Amber: train with the Russians to learn consistency; good spins and jumps are already there

Paige: learn the phrase, “If you don’t care what you’re skating to, the audience won’t either.”

Emmy: get CONSISTENCY and CONFIDENCE and learn that triple-triple

 

[Shayuki]

Alysa Liu is 12 yes, but just speaking of the development of a skater, this direction she is currently being pushed in is not what I'd like to see. The rules need to be changed, so that the skaters can be taught to develop in other ways. Here is Michelle Kwan at 12 years old - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htevMS0Vnyc - I would say that program displays more personality, attention to performance, and musicality than what is seen coming from anyone in the Eteri school, an approach that is now being widely copied.

I completely disagree about what you are saying about Kwan at 12. First minute, there's absolutely NOTHING apart from simple skating from jump to jump apart from some very minor absent-minded choreo you'd criticize an Eteri girl endlessly for. 1:30 is the first time there's anything interesting going on, then it's back to simple, empty skating and concentrating for a jump. This in reality is a very boring program and I could hardly manage to get to the end. Apart from that one section in the middle, it's entirely overflowing with crossovers and simple, emotionless skating. 30 seconds don't make a program.

Actually, while I don't think that she's an artistic super star at this point in time, even Alysa Liu'a overall skating is more watchable.

Well, as you mentioned Eteri girls and hate full backloading, here's Shcherbakova FS from 2016(11 years old) without full backload. You are actually saying that that Kwan program you linked displays "more personality, attention to performance, and musicality" than this one?

 

[Moxiejan]

I said that I hate the US media. I feel it was them that threw our girls under the bus. I read an article about best moments of the Olympics. They talked about Marai's TE triple axel. It was like they couldn't play up the accomplishment because it didn't measure up to what they thought it should be.

I don't know what U.S. media you were following, but the triple axel got tons of positive attention.
BTW, her name is spelled MIRAI

 

[Skye]

The comments Karen and Marai made about needing thier moms. Being first generation immigrant families. This makes for great stories, but also sets up cultural lost in translations. Asian cultures tend to be more collectivist. This is especially true of families where children often live wirh, not just thier immediate, but also extended family, especially outside of cities. For good or ill, the American media is a product of American culture which stresses independence and individuality. What I'm saying is that a cultural lost in translation may have happened.

I doubt that. Actually in the Asian culture, it is considered shameful to appear immature in public because it's not about just me but also the family that one represents.